Optus 3G for GA
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Posted by Pilot HTR
You're speculating about my motivation - I want to use every WX tool I can before I leave home, and during flight. I've been misled by AF's, TAF's and AERIS's, and had the sh!t frightened out of me as a result. I am extra cautious about WX and yes, I use the MK1 eyeball in flight which has range limitations and is useless in cloud (unless it gets dark suddenly).
BTW, I flew Jandakot to Adelaide the Monday after the 2006 Red Bull Race (non-stop in piston single) and was ahead of a Chieftan that diverted to Forrest or Esperance. I was fortunate (planned to) to be ahead of the weather, but the pilot of the Chieftan sounded seriously worried about the weather ahead and you could hear it in his voice. Was he with your lot?
As for technology, if you can get updates en-route it's way ahead of being fat, dumb and happy. To get the most up-to-date TAF and Area Forecasts between Charleville and Mackay is in conflict with your view of the reliability of such technology. By the time you're in range of the AERIS you're almost there.
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but are you trying to say visiting BOM or "non-airservices" sites is not good airmanship? Is a traditional Air Services forecast hours before departure superior to one obtained 3 or so hours later while airborne?
Is a 3G broadband AF or TAF non-compliant with regulations? If you were alerted to something scary on 3G would you ignore it in favour of a forecast 3-4 hours old?
Unless you ring the MET guys and transcribe it, all of your WX information will be delivered to you in some electronic format, so explain to me the difference between Broadband on a landline at home or office, and Broadband delivered via 3G.
Would this site fill in any dots if there was any doubt?
http://www.gpats.com.au/php/cust-cgi/LIAS_free_15m.php
What makes you say this?
At the risk of repeating myself, Tinpis and his alter ego's have made no useful contribution to an interesting and relevant topic, and a technology that will find it's way into more GA cockpits as time goes by.
Read Tinpis's last absurd post (or any for that matter) and convince me andthe others viewing he's professional and/or experienced. He's only trying to "wind-up" the debate which is equally as stupid and doesn't belong here.
I simply don't think the telephone technology is robust or widespread enough the rely on.......and that's what you seem to be wanting to do Ovation.
BTW, I flew Jandakot to Adelaide the Monday after the 2006 Red Bull Race (non-stop in piston single) and was ahead of a Chieftan that diverted to Forrest or Esperance. I was fortunate (planned to) to be ahead of the weather, but the pilot of the Chieftan sounded seriously worried about the weather ahead and you could hear it in his voice. Was he with your lot?
As for technology, if you can get updates en-route it's way ahead of being fat, dumb and happy. To get the most up-to-date TAF and Area Forecasts between Charleville and Mackay is in conflict with your view of the reliability of such technology. By the time you're in range of the AERIS you're almost there.
BUT...........none of the info I got altered ANY of our decisions. We amended and made plans based on what we could see or on traditional forecasts. I thinks it's called airmanship and also has something to do with compliance with regulations.
Is a 3G broadband AF or TAF non-compliant with regulations? If you were alerted to something scary on 3G would you ignore it in favour of a forecast 3-4 hours old?
Unless you ring the MET guys and transcribe it, all of your WX information will be delivered to you in some electronic format, so explain to me the difference between Broadband on a landline at home or office, and Broadband delivered via 3G.
Would this site fill in any dots if there was any doubt?
http://www.gpats.com.au/php/cust-cgi/LIAS_free_15m.php
Tin and all the others here have probably flown more hours that you ever will,
and do not warrant being attacked. Tech can be good, but commonsense and caution is better..
Read Tinpis's last absurd post (or any for that matter) and convince me andthe others viewing he's professional and/or experienced. He's only trying to "wind-up" the debate which is equally as stupid and doesn't belong here.
Never feel that you are 'imposing' on another pilot's use of Centre. ATC is there just as much for you as it is for any other pilot. Centre is not only for IFR flights, but VFR as well. If you're flying, and you want information from Center (or any other ATS unit, for that matter!), get on the radio and ASK for it! You're only 'imposing' if someone else has declared an emergency.
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Join Date: Oct 2006
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Fantastic!
I'm going to write a script for a movie in which a grizzled old vet, used to doing things "the old way," is paired up with a technology-obsessed rookie.
Hilarity ensues!
Do you think it's been done before?
Kiwi Chick, we'll need someone to be The Girl in this film. Perhaps you'd be interested?
Anyway, though he sounds a bit tightly wound, I agree with Ovation that more information is better. Even if it's not officially valid, it's something. It's like reading the news -- any one source has its bias and degree of inaccuracy, but by evaluating lots of sources, you can arrive at something like truth. Having Internet access (or XM, or some other data source) in the cockpit is a very good thing. It's especially good for low-time pilots like myself who don't have the experience to make inferences and judgements based only on what we see out the window (which may not be anything, after all).
As for using the area frequency for weather now that Flightwatch is gone, I agree with Lasiorhinus that it is a valid thing to do, and I do in fact do it. I don't do it as casually as I'd retrieve a weather chart off the BOM site, though.
I'm going to write a script for a movie in which a grizzled old vet, used to doing things "the old way," is paired up with a technology-obsessed rookie.
Hilarity ensues!
Do you think it's been done before?
Kiwi Chick, we'll need someone to be The Girl in this film. Perhaps you'd be interested?
Anyway, though he sounds a bit tightly wound, I agree with Ovation that more information is better. Even if it's not officially valid, it's something. It's like reading the news -- any one source has its bias and degree of inaccuracy, but by evaluating lots of sources, you can arrive at something like truth. Having Internet access (or XM, or some other data source) in the cockpit is a very good thing. It's especially good for low-time pilots like myself who don't have the experience to make inferences and judgements based only on what we see out the window (which may not be anything, after all).
As for using the area frequency for weather now that Flightwatch is gone, I agree with Lasiorhinus that it is a valid thing to do, and I do in fact do it. I don't do it as casually as I'd retrieve a weather chart off the BOM site, though.
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Crosshair,
I think you your last post demonstrates that you have produced a reasonable distillation of the various views being expressed.
Ovation,
You asked for an opinions and you got them. I in particular gave you my view based on first-hand experience. Makes you look very petty to then go sniping at all and sundry just because some are different to yours.
Yes, you were very lucky to beat the weather into Adelaide - you must have left Jandakot either very early, IFR (fair enough) or illegally VFR in IMC.
That 'worried' Chieftan pilot was indeed with us. Yes he was concerned - that's why he has five-figure hours and 40+ years as a professional pilot. He was concerned too because he was acting as pathfinder to a large group of pilots, all of whom were happy to put their faith in him. He is one of the most recognised and experienced figures in Australian aviation. I'll take his example any day over yours. What you might call quite reasonable concern I think. Be careful about personal attacks and trash-talking others. It always comes back to bite you on the arse.
Glad you did not stop in Forrest that night, sounds like you'd have spoiled all the fun.
I think you your last post demonstrates that you have produced a reasonable distillation of the various views being expressed.
Ovation,
You asked for an opinions and you got them. I in particular gave you my view based on first-hand experience. Makes you look very petty to then go sniping at all and sundry just because some are different to yours.
Yes, you were very lucky to beat the weather into Adelaide - you must have left Jandakot either very early, IFR (fair enough) or illegally VFR in IMC.
That 'worried' Chieftan pilot was indeed with us. Yes he was concerned - that's why he has five-figure hours and 40+ years as a professional pilot. He was concerned too because he was acting as pathfinder to a large group of pilots, all of whom were happy to put their faith in him. He is one of the most recognised and experienced figures in Australian aviation. I'll take his example any day over yours. What you might call quite reasonable concern I think. Be careful about personal attacks and trash-talking others. It always comes back to bite you on the arse.
Glad you did not stop in Forrest that night, sounds like you'd have spoiled all the fun.
Last edited by PilotHTR; 8th Nov 2007 at 09:50.
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Tinpis:
well put, you crack me up
Pilot HTR:
solid advise, well done.
Ovation:
seems to me that if you spent less time with your head in your laptop, and more time looking outside you might be a lot better off, not just from a weather point of view but also remember that little catch phrase ' see and avoid'.
Crosshair:
while I agree it is wise to be armed with all the latest info just be aware that sometimes a little knowledge can be dangerous. Eg, you might not like what you see in front of you and would normally turn back/land and wait, however this day there is extra pressure to make your destination on time. You check the weather radar on your phone and conclude that you can safely skirt around the storm cells so push on based on this info. However the radar image is wrong and you are heading for trouble.
Remember that the weather radar has its limits and accuracy can be degraded for a nunber of reasons including tall buildings (eg silos) near the radar site, heavy rain near the site can mask whats happening further out, many sites are shared with windfinding duties and are out of action for half an hour or more in the morning and arvo and some mobile(wap) radar pages dont have a time stamp to alert you of this. The BoM website has info on these limitations.
Often when we are faced witha tough choice we look to justify the path we want to take, not necessarily the path we should take and so put too much faith in unreliable info.
Just something to be aware of.
PW
well put, you crack me up
Pilot HTR:
solid advise, well done.
Ovation:
seems to me that if you spent less time with your head in your laptop, and more time looking outside you might be a lot better off, not just from a weather point of view but also remember that little catch phrase ' see and avoid'.
Crosshair:
while I agree it is wise to be armed with all the latest info just be aware that sometimes a little knowledge can be dangerous. Eg, you might not like what you see in front of you and would normally turn back/land and wait, however this day there is extra pressure to make your destination on time. You check the weather radar on your phone and conclude that you can safely skirt around the storm cells so push on based on this info. However the radar image is wrong and you are heading for trouble.
Remember that the weather radar has its limits and accuracy can be degraded for a nunber of reasons including tall buildings (eg silos) near the radar site, heavy rain near the site can mask whats happening further out, many sites are shared with windfinding duties and are out of action for half an hour or more in the morning and arvo and some mobile(wap) radar pages dont have a time stamp to alert you of this. The BoM website has info on these limitations.
Often when we are faced witha tough choice we look to justify the path we want to take, not necessarily the path we should take and so put too much faith in unreliable info.
Just something to be aware of.
PW
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PilotHTR
I'm missing something here. The thread is about being informed and up-to-date and the best way to do it. We have Tinpis et al making nonsensical comments and so they get a spray for it. What's your problem?
Fair enough indeed. I sat in my a/c at YPJT for an hour waiting for the WX to lift to personal minima. En-route the stormscope was painting behind us until well across the border. Used every bit of WX information I could find using 3G broadband before launching. Luck maybe, informed definitely (which is my point in this debate that others seem to miss). After the border the WX was CAVOK.
Sorry to spoil your negative thoughts - current CIRSE and PIFR. Log for that day says 5:55 for that flight with 2:20 IMC. Because of WX spent time at FL135 and FL155 (VFR because of limited COMMS).
We were really worried listening to him because we could tell he was really stressed by the WX he was getting himself (and apparently others) into. I don't think I've ever heard anyone so stressed on frequency.
I recall passing a PIREP to FS for his benefit. If your bunch were VFR it would have been "interesting" to say the least.
We actually speculated we'd read more in the papers next day.
PS Sorry I missed you at Forrest (but then I don't suffer fools gladly)
I'm missing something here. The thread is about being informed and up-to-date and the best way to do it. We have Tinpis et al making nonsensical comments and so they get a spray for it. What's your problem?
Yes, you were very lucky to beat the weather into Adelaide - you must have left Jandakot either IFR (fair enough)
or illegally VFR in IMC
That 'worried' chieftan pilot was indeed with us. Yes he was concerned - that's why he has five-figure hours and 40+ years as a professional pilot. He was concerned too because he was acting as leader to a large group of pilots, all of whom were happy to put their faith in him.
I recall passing a PIREP to FS for his benefit. If your bunch were VFR it would have been "interesting" to say the least.
We actually speculated we'd read more in the papers next day.
PS Sorry I missed you at Forrest (but then I don't suffer fools gladly)
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pw1340, I agree with you that one sometimes sees what one wants to see in any set of information. The analogy to the papers is again apt. You have to be careful, I agree.
I had seen that information about "shared windfinding" on the BOM site, but did not know what it meant in practical terms. Now we all know, so thanks.
Even if we trust only the official data (which isn't perfect and always sounds a little doom-and-gloom anyway), it's better to be able to get a more current version of it than to trust what you printed off at the hotel six hours ago (by voice radio or some kind of datalink, of course).
I had seen that information about "shared windfinding" on the BOM site, but did not know what it meant in practical terms. Now we all know, so thanks.
Even if we trust only the official data (which isn't perfect and always sounds a little doom-and-gloom anyway), it's better to be able to get a more current version of it than to trust what you printed off at the hotel six hours ago (by voice radio or some kind of datalink, of course).
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Ovation,
It does not look like you have many friends here. Not very good at reading the signs are you?
I will not be wasting any more energy with you - it's a forum, not a pissing contest. You are clearly a superior pilot to the rest of us. Not sure why you had to ask for advice from the rest of us to begin with, given that you know it all already.
Good luck
It does not look like you have many friends here. Not very good at reading the signs are you?
I will not be wasting any more energy with you - it's a forum, not a pissing contest. You are clearly a superior pilot to the rest of us. Not sure why you had to ask for advice from the rest of us to begin with, given that you know it all already.
Good luck
Fascinating stuff...............
I must say it’s an interesting pissing competition with Ovation sticking to his guns in spite of the usual suspects and non-topic “provocatuers”. Maybe it should have been titled “Situational Awareness and In Flight Updates”.
PTW1340 Please share with the forum how you see and avoid in hard IFR. Might that be time to find what developed since you got your forecast 4 or 5 hours earlier. Ovation must have had a bad experience with forecasts vs actual and wants to be a better informed pilot any way possible. In CAVOK/VFR conditions you see and avoid as you should. Your input about the limitations the Radar on the BOM site is informative and useful, but the BOM must use this Radar derived info in their forecasts or why would they have them.
PilotHTR I cannot see where Ovation asked for your opinion or anyone else’s but he seems up to speed with this topic (3g) as indeed you appear to be. On the other hand tinpis (who you defend) must be living in the past if his gobbledygook is any guide.
I must say it’s an interesting pissing competition with Ovation sticking to his guns in spite of the usual suspects and non-topic “provocatuers”. Maybe it should have been titled “Situational Awareness and In Flight Updates”.
PTW1340 Please share with the forum how you see and avoid in hard IFR. Might that be time to find what developed since you got your forecast 4 or 5 hours earlier. Ovation must have had a bad experience with forecasts vs actual and wants to be a better informed pilot any way possible. In CAVOK/VFR conditions you see and avoid as you should. Your input about the limitations the Radar on the BOM site is informative and useful, but the BOM must use this Radar derived info in their forecasts or why would they have them.
PilotHTR I cannot see where Ovation asked for your opinion or anyone else’s but he seems up to speed with this topic (3g) as indeed you appear to be. On the other hand tinpis (who you defend) must be living in the past if his gobbledygook is any guide.
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Ovation you said:
Tinpis said:
In my view, Tinpis' response demonstrates experience and wisdom, so it looks like Angelflight is ready to receive your donation.
Tinpis:
With respect to Ovation's quote:
C'mon mate please tell 'im, the suspense is killing me!
Show me any part of tinpis's response that demonstrates experience and wisdom and I'll donate $5,000 to Angelflight.
Strewth...umm... anyone look out the window these days ??
Tinpis:
With respect to Ovation's quote:
You comment shows unawareness that aircraft can fly IFR in IMC ...etc
