Merged:A couple of prangs in Sth Island.
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I don't think (correct me if I'm wrong?) that he said "having an out is the answer to everything and just go ahead and do dangerous **** anyway".
I think his point - which I agree with - was (again, correct me if I'm wrong):
If you are going to be flying in **** like that, you should firstly be aware of what you're getting yourself into, ie wind direction, consequences, lee side etc... I don't need to go on, you all know what I mean.
And if you ARE going to fly in **** like that - especially with a student on board who IS going to copy nearly everything they see you do - then you should have an out. Especially if you are flying in an underpowered aircraft like a C152.
There would be nothing worse than seeing the VSI at about minus 1,000,000 ft per minute (OK i exaggerate but you get my point) knowing there is NOTHING you can do but ride it out and get the f
k out of there.
Let me make myself quite clear here too - I don't know what happened and I am in no way casting judgement on this poor girl or her decisions - just responding to comments made thus far.
I think his point - which I agree with - was (again, correct me if I'm wrong):
If you are going to be flying in **** like that, you should firstly be aware of what you're getting yourself into, ie wind direction, consequences, lee side etc... I don't need to go on, you all know what I mean.
And if you ARE going to fly in **** like that - especially with a student on board who IS going to copy nearly everything they see you do - then you should have an out. Especially if you are flying in an underpowered aircraft like a C152.
There would be nothing worse than seeing the VSI at about minus 1,000,000 ft per minute (OK i exaggerate but you get my point) knowing there is NOTHING you can do but ride it out and get the f
k out of there.Let me make myself quite clear here too - I don't know what happened and I am in no way casting judgement on this poor girl or her decisions - just responding to comments made thus far.
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Quiting with dignity:
Kiwichick:
A little knowledge is a dangerous thing:
There has been no one making aspertions as to what happened, comments only to some very immature stuff.
There would be nothing worse than seeing the VSI at about minus 1,000,000 ft per minute (OK i exaggerate but you get my point) knowing there is NOTHING you can do but ride it out and get the fk out of there.
POint is what are you doing there in the first place, now as I said, getting started is tough, at 300 hrs commercial ops you know sweet F--k all, at 10K I stated to learn ( Hey I'm a slow starter), what ever happened is for the authorities to work out.
This poor girl had 300 hrs, she was unlucky.
There is a hell of a lot more to flying around Mountains than Wind direction & lee side:
No more comment from me:
Chr's
H/Snort:
PS: Come clean do you and empacher 48 actually fly for a living or are you wannab's?
A little knowledge is a dangerous thing:
There has been no one making aspertions as to what happened, comments only to some very immature stuff.
There would be nothing worse than seeing the VSI at about minus 1,000,000 ft per minute (OK i exaggerate but you get my point) knowing there is NOTHING you can do but ride it out and get the fk out of there.
POint is what are you doing there in the first place, now as I said, getting started is tough, at 300 hrs commercial ops you know sweet F--k all, at 10K I stated to learn ( Hey I'm a slow starter), what ever happened is for the authorities to work out.
This poor girl had 300 hrs, she was unlucky.
There is a hell of a lot more to flying around Mountains than Wind direction & lee side:
No more comment from me:
Chr's
H/Snort:
PS: Come clean do you and empacher 48 actually fly for a living or are you wannab's?
Come clean do you and empacher 48 actually fly for a living or are you wannab's
To reinforce what kiwichick was saying about negative VSI rates; yes I do see very regularly VSI descent rates with the VSI pegged on the downstop, but there is one thing for sure, if you keep heading into wind, the VSI will very quickly be pegged onto the up stop, then as you push even further into wind the VSI will be pegged onto the down stop, then again pegged onto the upstop... Usually after doing that a few times you would've crossed the mountain range that is causing this phenomena called "Mountain wave" and you'll be on the upwind side. You get this whenever there is significant wind over a significant mountain range, ie: the Southern Alps in either Westerly or Easterly conditions. Glider pilots know about this phenomena, how else would Omarama be the gliding captial of the world, and trips to over 30,000' be possible in the South Island, it ain't ridge lift that gets them there, nor thermals - they help them get into the wave and then its easy to get up that high!
I started my wave flying in small fixed wing piston aircraft with about 150 hours TT, I was shown the effect of wave (I did mention the Cherokee to 13,000' but I didn't mention I got from 2,500' to there in under 5 minutes, thats an average climb rate of over 2000fpm!!). My training with the company I work with now is very involved and teaches you a lot about wind, mountain wave, cloud effects that show you indiciations of rotor, lee side turbulence and where to find the smooth air. I am still learning about it and have got it wrong on a number of occasions, usually with a hiding that lifts everything in the aircraft to the roof, but your back up plan is usually in action by then, when there are days which are clearly beyond my skills and more senior pilots are flying, I am able to observe in the RHS and I still learn.
As I said, I am not an expert and never led on that I am an expert. But FLYING AROUND MOUNTAINS IN STRONG WINDS IS NEVER A PROBLEM IF YOU KNOW WHAT YOU ARE DOING...
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But FLYING AROUND MOUNTAINS IN STRONG WINDS IS NEVER A PROBLEM IF YOU KNOW WHAT YOU ARE DOING...
A bold statement my friend if I may be so bold. I have seen pilots who knew what they were doing be surprised.
In those sort of situations the only thing you can expect is the unexpected. Murphy has a way of catching up with anyone. The only way to survive is to be as prepared as possible and under-rate yourself. Self preservation is being a little scared.
A bold statement my friend if I may be so bold. I have seen pilots who knew what they were doing be surprised.
In those sort of situations the only thing you can expect is the unexpected. Murphy has a way of catching up with anyone. The only way to survive is to be as prepared as possible and under-rate yourself. Self preservation is being a little scared.
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empacher48 said: But FLYING AROUND MOUNTAINS IN STRONG WINDS IS NEVER A PROBLEM IF YOU KNOW WHAT YOU ARE DOING...
hoggsnortrupert said: at 10K I sta[r]ted to learn
The whole point of this discussion centres around those two words: it's about attitude not knowledge or experience.
I reckon that humble pilots have the best chance of living long lives and enjoying their grandkids.
MJH
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VH Vin I hope your not seriously suggesting that anyone should land any aircraft even on the worlds longest runways even with a 30 knot tail wind !!!, if this is being taught ? well its a perfect example of how accidents occur and maybe why pilots come in so bloody fast ! 
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I got the icons from
http://www.sportsgamer.com/forums/mi...do=showsmilies
Just cut and paste the link..
I could have used the tosser smiler but I thought that was a bit too harsh.. and didn't convey what I was thinking at the time...
I have done the odd flight in Queenstown, in a C172 to now days.. bringing the odd jet into the 'bowl'... I have a lot of respect for those mountains.. even in a jet.. when downdrafts don't care what your flying...
Troppo.. you got a point there..
No abuse intended... I just wanted to use my funky icons
http://www.sportsgamer.com/forums/mi...do=showsmilies
Just cut and paste the link..
I could have used the tosser smiler but I thought that was a bit too harsh.. and didn't convey what I was thinking at the time...
I have done the odd flight in Queenstown, in a C172 to now days.. bringing the odd jet into the 'bowl'... I have a lot of respect for those mountains.. even in a jet.. when downdrafts don't care what your flying...
Troppo.. you got a point there..
No abuse intended... I just wanted to use my funky icons
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As I said, I am not an expert and never led on that I am an expert. But FLYING AROUND MOUNTAINS IN STRONG WINDS IS NEVER A PROBLEM IF YOU KNOW WHAT YOU ARE DOING...
As has been stated, mountain/hill (depending on your viewpoint) is a dangerous and unpredictable beast....yes there are techniques, and yes there are the factors of experience and local knowledge...but ultimately it comes down to risk management...just like everything else we do in aviation.
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Sorry....but not funny.
Maybe it wasn't intended in humour either.
In Mountaineering we talk about objective and subjective threats. In the Uraweras this issue has migrated from subjective to objective.
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I'm just peeling myself outta the sim, or the 'box of death'.... where they throw every emergency at you known to man,
I had a thought....
How do you know that "you know what your doing"?
I had a thought....
How do you know that "you know what your doing"?
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Thanks empacher48 you've pretty much summed up what I meant
hoggsnortrupert
I'm not sure that you've totally understood me here? I wasn't going to bother replying, but your title (spelt wrong, I might add!
) "Quitting With Dignity" really got my goat - this implies that I have said or done something to embarrass myself, and I should shut up before doing even more so.
It doesn't really matter to me what your opinion of me is, but I do care what others on this forum - who I have come to like and respect - may think, based on your comments. Hence my reply
I never once said you should be in that situation to start with - not in my job or hers. Emapcher48's job is a different story. I also realise (with my very little time and experience) that there is a lot more to mountain flying than wind direction and lee side, hence my comment:
You say:
Yet comment number #13 was:
All we're doing is having a grown-up discussion about the whats, whys, and wherefores. We're human.
And finally, no, I am not a "wannab" I get paid very well to fly
hoggsnortrupert
I'm not sure that you've totally understood me here? I wasn't going to bother replying, but your title (spelt wrong, I might add!
) "Quitting With Dignity" really got my goat - this implies that I have said or done something to embarrass myself, and I should shut up before doing even more so.It doesn't really matter to me what your opinion of me is, but I do care what others on this forum - who I have come to like and respect - may think, based on your comments. Hence my reply
I never once said you should be in that situation to start with - not in my job or hers. Emapcher48's job is a different story. I also realise (with my very little time and experience) that there is a lot more to mountain flying than wind direction and lee side, hence my comment:
ie wind direction, consequences, lee side etc... I don't need to go on, you all know what I mean.
There has been no one making aspertions as to what happened, comments only to some very immature stuff.
Strong winds in a mountainous region... 
And finally, no, I am not a "wannab"
I get paid very well to fly
Thread Starter
It strikes me that the time has come for us all to show a little respect here, and that things have been getting a bit OTT.
I recently had the tragic experience of reading (in Pprune) of the death of a pilot in Australia and then taking a 'phone call from a friend just a few minutes later to tell me that his a member of his family was that pilot. I was able to pass on the details of the Pprune thread that contained, amongst other things, a very touching and eloquent piece of prose that he later commented on, I think it helped a lot in fact.
I don't think I'd do the same for this thread I'm disappointed to say.
A young woman, one of our compatriots, has died and whilst it's all very well to try and learn from that at some stage it's entirely inappropriate, IMO, to carry on this sort of brawling in public
. If you want to have a go at each other or wibble about how much more you know than everyone else then how about doing it in another thread, or in private, or better still shut it entirely 'cos it does us all a disservice and could only increase the heatache of the youngsters family should they read it all.
I am in the curious position, it would appear, of being able to delete this thread and if it weren't for some decent comments made by a few people I believe I would. For the others if any of you feel like editing or removing your posts then be my guest, it might show a sensitivity and maturity that has been sadly lacking to date.
I recently had the tragic experience of reading (in Pprune) of the death of a pilot in Australia and then taking a 'phone call from a friend just a few minutes later to tell me that his a member of his family was that pilot. I was able to pass on the details of the Pprune thread that contained, amongst other things, a very touching and eloquent piece of prose that he later commented on, I think it helped a lot in fact.
I don't think I'd do the same for this thread I'm disappointed to say
.A young woman, one of our compatriots, has died and whilst it's all very well to try and learn from that at some stage it's entirely inappropriate, IMO, to carry on this sort of brawling in public
. If you want to have a go at each other or wibble about how much more you know than everyone else then how about doing it in another thread, or in private, or better still shut it entirely 'cos it does us all a disservice and could only increase the heatache of the youngsters family should they read it all.I am in the curious position, it would appear, of being able to delete this thread and if it weren't for some decent comments made by a few people I believe I would. For the others if any of you feel like editing or removing your posts then be my guest, it might show a sensitivity and maturity that has been sadly lacking to date.
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All due respect, First_Principal, but where would you suggest we discuss these sorts of things? 
If we deleted these posts, and carried on under a different thread - the information is still there in black and white for any family member to read should they so happen upon it.
Granted, some of the discussions have got a little childish - but hell, we're pilots. Self-centred egotistical personalities - thats what we do.
I will be the first to put my hand up and apologise to any family member that might read this and be upset; but I won't apologise for the things I've said.
I'm sure however that your intentions were completely altruistic, and I respect that.
Kiwi Chick
If we deleted these posts, and carried on under a different thread - the information is still there in black and white for any family member to read should they so happen upon it.
Granted, some of the discussions have got a little childish - but hell, we're pilots. Self-centred egotistical personalities - thats what we do.
I will be the first to put my hand up and apologise to any family member that might read this and be upset; but I won't apologise for the things I've said.
I'm sure however that your intentions were completely altruistic, and I respect that.
Kiwi Chick
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Respect, Dig"nitt"y,Humility,Professionalism,Compassion:
God help us if people like you ( 35 yr old Chick?)are in charge of airborne machinary:
Show some damn respect:
H/Snort
MODS: Help required, lets stop it here: feel free to wipe my thread if you think its needed.
Chr's H?Snort
Show some damn respect:
H/Snort
MODS: Help required, lets stop it here: feel free to wipe my thread if you think its needed.
Chr's H?Snort
