Looking for a fast, affordable, IFR single...
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Looking for a fast, affordable, IFR single...
Hi y'all. Some recent changes in my personal circumstances have led me to decided to add a 4 - 6 seat IFR single to my world. (Girlfriend and dog are both sick of being ill crammed into the back of my Harmon Rocket.) My usual sector is 400 NM, conducted weekly, and I want to get a good beginner's IFR machine. (To be clear, I am not a beginner to fast aeroplanes, just to IFR) Also, for clarity, I actually WANT a retractable, and some more complex systems, so complexity is not a turn-off on this occasion. I have been thinking about a V-tailed Bonanza, and wanted to chuck out the idea and see what you lot reckon. I know the straight tail is probably safer/better, but for sentimental reasons I won't bore you with, if it's a Bo, it's gotta be a V-tail. I'm not insistent on a Bo though. My Q's are:
1. What are the best models of the 35? Why?
2. How fast, real world, are said best models?
3. Any reason to get or avoid turbocharging?
4. Anyone know a good one for sale in our part of the world? (I am in NZ, but Oz would be fine.)
5. Any tricks to look out for in a Bo?
6. Any other fast singles you'd recommend instead?
7. If anyone (FTGK, CC, anyone else) is running a Bo LOP, what sort of speeds/fuel consumption can I expect if I do the same?
8. other thoughts welcome. they don't need to be reasonable. Aircraft preference is very personal
thanks in advance
LP
1. What are the best models of the 35? Why?
2. How fast, real world, are said best models?
3. Any reason to get or avoid turbocharging?
4. Anyone know a good one for sale in our part of the world? (I am in NZ, but Oz would be fine.)
5. Any tricks to look out for in a Bo?
6. Any other fast singles you'd recommend instead?
7. If anyone (FTGK, CC, anyone else) is running a Bo LOP, what sort of speeds/fuel consumption can I expect if I do the same?
8. other thoughts welcome. they don't need to be reasonable. Aircraft preference is very personal
thanks in advance
LP
Last edited by lostpianoplayer; 15th Sep 2007 at 14:05. Reason: accuracy
Grandpa Aerotart
Standard V35s are not 4-6 seater...with any significant fuel they are 3 seaters. CofG is a fairly critical issue in a V tail and they do wag their tails a lot which can be VERY sick inducing for rear seat pax.
Turbonormalising, vs turbocharging, can get you above most weather and seems to have no real detrimental effects on engine life....because rather than producing lots more power/heat you're merely maintaining normal sea level MP to a critical altitude up around FL200....cooling becomes a issue up high but the liquidaire baffles, or D Shannon equivalent, fix it.
What you can do is improve on the V35 with STCs.
Turbonormalising/3 bladed prop corrects the CofG issues to a great extent but the extra weight obviously eats into usefull load. Tip tanks give back that usefull load ++ by way of a MTOW increase of 200 (or is it 300lbs?) depends on the model I think. Turbonormalising gives a MTOW increase too but the two are not cumulative. There are several models of electronic yaw damper that address the tail wiggle effectively.
I know TNIO550b A36s TAS around 205 kts LOP in the low to mid teens...I would think a V35b would also...perhaps a little better.
As to what TAS my A36 gets now LOP well around 165...I am just having GAMI Liquidaire baffles installed and fully expect to get more but how much more remains to be seen...I'll get back to you when I get to fly her next in a month or so...I will be a little surprised if it isn't up around 175+.
As to what to look for?
Spend any amount of money necesary to ensure no internal corrosion is present in any Bonanza you're serious about buying. Spar web cracking is another potential issue easily checked for. With V tails obviously the mod that stops the tail ripping off is essential. This mod essentially anchors the V tail leading edge in place and has dramatically reduced the incidence of in flight break up of V tails...although be aware the incidence is still not zero. Flutter is still an issue with V tails and can cause enormous damage to the rear fuselage...it is a flight controls balance issue seperate to the tail ripping off issue.
The handling is so good that they can be a little more challenging IFR...a good A/P is essential...roll stability is fairly neutral.
What else?
C210 carries more a little slower with gravel truck, by comparison, handling...very stable IFR.
Piper Lance (Straight tailed variety only) carries more again, slower again...but they are cheap.
Really...in my view...the only alternative is a A36. It has very nearly the same lovely handling of the V35 but with non of the V35 issues. Asthetically there is just no comparison to the 210 and Lance
A TNIO550 powered, Tip tank equiped A36 will carry 4 full sized adults and a shed load of bags 1100nm at 200Kts+ with good IFR reserves.
I know the V35s look like sex personified and has a cult like following but the A36 is a LOT better aeroplane in all respects.
Turbonormalising, vs turbocharging, can get you above most weather and seems to have no real detrimental effects on engine life....because rather than producing lots more power/heat you're merely maintaining normal sea level MP to a critical altitude up around FL200....cooling becomes a issue up high but the liquidaire baffles, or D Shannon equivalent, fix it.
What you can do is improve on the V35 with STCs.
Turbonormalising/3 bladed prop corrects the CofG issues to a great extent but the extra weight obviously eats into usefull load. Tip tanks give back that usefull load ++ by way of a MTOW increase of 200 (or is it 300lbs?) depends on the model I think. Turbonormalising gives a MTOW increase too but the two are not cumulative. There are several models of electronic yaw damper that address the tail wiggle effectively.
I know TNIO550b A36s TAS around 205 kts LOP in the low to mid teens...I would think a V35b would also...perhaps a little better.
As to what TAS my A36 gets now LOP well around 165...I am just having GAMI Liquidaire baffles installed and fully expect to get more but how much more remains to be seen...I'll get back to you when I get to fly her next in a month or so...I will be a little surprised if it isn't up around 175+.
As to what to look for?
Spend any amount of money necesary to ensure no internal corrosion is present in any Bonanza you're serious about buying. Spar web cracking is another potential issue easily checked for. With V tails obviously the mod that stops the tail ripping off is essential. This mod essentially anchors the V tail leading edge in place and has dramatically reduced the incidence of in flight break up of V tails...although be aware the incidence is still not zero. Flutter is still an issue with V tails and can cause enormous damage to the rear fuselage...it is a flight controls balance issue seperate to the tail ripping off issue.
The handling is so good that they can be a little more challenging IFR...a good A/P is essential...roll stability is fairly neutral.
What else?
C210 carries more a little slower with gravel truck, by comparison, handling...very stable IFR.
Piper Lance (Straight tailed variety only) carries more again, slower again...but they are cheap.
Really...in my view...the only alternative is a A36. It has very nearly the same lovely handling of the V35 but with non of the V35 issues. Asthetically there is just no comparison to the 210 and Lance
A TNIO550 powered, Tip tank equiped A36 will carry 4 full sized adults and a shed load of bags 1100nm at 200Kts+ with good IFR reserves.
I know the V35s look like sex personified and has a cult like following but the A36 is a LOT better aeroplane in all respects.
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T tailed Turbo Arrow IV - Retractable and heaps of grunt and TAS 160-165kts and cheap to run. I happen to have just listed mine for sale in NZ. IFR and plumbed for oxygen. New interior for your dog and wife - what more could you want. Turbo charged just requires a bit more care with engine handling but it allows you to get above alot of the weather in NZ - including the never ending turbulence most often encountered below 10000ft.
Turbo charged just requires a bit more care with engine handling but it allows you to get above alot of the weather in NZ - including the never ending turbulence most often encountered below 10000ft.
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Coupla things - Bos, Arrows and private IFR in NZ
CC, as you may recall you and I were discussing LOP issues by email a while back. My maintenance stuff all got a bit out of control, so no GAMI yet. Would like to resume that convo though - and this too, if you don't mind. I can find your email addy somewhere, but quicker if you would email me at andrew at activenewzealand dot com, if you don't mind? I'm very grateful for all the thoughts above. TN, especially, is all I need. Dad came home from Vietnam War (he was in RAN) and gave me, at age of 3 or 4, a model of V-tail Bo. Always wanted one, if I ever had to get a normal aeroplane, and don't think the soul would forgive me for a straight tail, even though your points are undoubtedly correct! Will think HARD about sentiment v practicality though. It would be the first time I've ever bought an aircraft based on practicality, in any case, so maybe I can just take it a bit further. Time to join the normal world of aircraft, reluctantly
Oh, and no need at all for 6 full seats - it's more the space for bulk stuff that would be nice, after years of cramming my life into Rocket, R22, Spezio Tuholer, et al. 2 pax plus dog & luggage is just fine, maybe rugmunchers in due course, and no objection to refueling en route too. (Presumably I can take 4 and very low fuel on occasion, for scenics etc? Although I hear CofG in Bo's is WORSE, not BETTER with burnoff, so that may not help.)
One other thought/question - aimed at anyone with private IFR experience in NZ. Single pilot, single engine. A good friend at CAA has always told me it's pretty hard, a little dangerous, and ATC is not wildly keen on private IFR. Are the risks manageable? Icing, airspace, workload SP, lack of redundancy....? I do have an Aztec in the US, with all the hard IFR attachments (redundancy, anti icing, etc etc - and yes, I know the anti icing isn't exactly a ticket to load up on ice). The other option for serious IFR here in NZ is a twin, but have been thinking that might be a bit excessive/expensive to start with. Ultimate aim is Aerostar, but no hurry...
So, hope it's OK to hijack my own thread, but am also interested in the consensus on the wisdom or otherwise of private IFR flying in NZ.
Conflict alert, thanks for the thoughts. I'll certainly look at all options. How bout you email me at address above too?
ta
LP (or, as the cunning may notice, Andrew
Oh, and no need at all for 6 full seats - it's more the space for bulk stuff that would be nice, after years of cramming my life into Rocket, R22, Spezio Tuholer, et al. 2 pax plus dog & luggage is just fine, maybe rugmunchers in due course, and no objection to refueling en route too. (Presumably I can take 4 and very low fuel on occasion, for scenics etc? Although I hear CofG in Bo's is WORSE, not BETTER with burnoff, so that may not help.)
One other thought/question - aimed at anyone with private IFR experience in NZ. Single pilot, single engine. A good friend at CAA has always told me it's pretty hard, a little dangerous, and ATC is not wildly keen on private IFR. Are the risks manageable? Icing, airspace, workload SP, lack of redundancy....? I do have an Aztec in the US, with all the hard IFR attachments (redundancy, anti icing, etc etc - and yes, I know the anti icing isn't exactly a ticket to load up on ice). The other option for serious IFR here in NZ is a twin, but have been thinking that might be a bit excessive/expensive to start with. Ultimate aim is Aerostar, but no hurry...
So, hope it's OK to hijack my own thread, but am also interested in the consensus on the wisdom or otherwise of private IFR flying in NZ.
Conflict alert, thanks for the thoughts. I'll certainly look at all options. How bout you email me at address above too?
ta
LP (or, as the cunning may notice, Andrew
Last edited by lostpianoplayer; 15th Sep 2007 at 18:59. Reason: accuracy
Grandpa Aerotart
Here is a list of Bos for sale in the US.
V35s,
A36s,
You mention 400nm trips weekly. Fuel at both ends? If so tip tanks not required as a normal Bo will do 750nm easy...more LOP.
Turbonormalising?
Turbulence can clearly be an issue in NZ due terrain and strong winds so far south. Icing levels too.
Turbonormalising will give you the chance to get above both those more often than not. It also gives you a significant gross weight increase and moves the CofG in a V35 about 1.5in forward so you would find that, for instance, a TN V35b with a decent yaw damper might actually become a realistic 4 seater + bags + enough fuel to safely fly 400nm even without tip tanks.
The gross weight increases seem to be very model specific but a little poke around suggested that some models of A36 could be as much as 450lbs.
TN is anything but cheap...about US$50k to add it onto an existing engine
A Gamispec TNIO550b is about US$75k...it'd be one HELL of a great engine but
It might be cheaper to buy an aeroplane that is already thusly equiped and let the previous owner cop the capital loss on the TN mod....Unless you really are going to keep the aeroplane a very long time then it can make sense to buy a older aircraft that is good in all other respects and spend the cubic $ to make it as you want it to be.
As an example...there are only 2 TN A36s in that link above...the cheaper of the two was an '81 model they are asking USD245k odd for...the other a 98ish at 400k++. Non of the V35s are advertised as TN and I could find any that were...BUT....take this one with a nearly run out engine argue em down another 15k and drop a Gamispec TNIO550 in it for about US$200k total.
http://www.aso.com/i.aso3/aircraft_v...xxxregionid=-1
Make no mistake...many people would say that that % of the value of the aeroplane spent forward of the firewall is lunacy but you're going to be spending money on an engine overhaul anyway so you're really only talking about the incremental cost of the TN and the extra bits and bobs that make it Gami spec...porting/balancing/polishing Millenium cylinders etc.
If you intend to keep the aeroplane long term it is probably worth doing...it wouldn't be if you were likely to want a twin in a few years.
I've gotta say that if I was in the market for a V35 the 76 model above would be near the top of any list...everything about it is impressive (already has a yaw damper for starters) except the engine. It doesn't say so but it would likely be an IO520BB and it has 500hrs left to recommended TBO. Now it might be owned by a really carefull and knowledgable pilot and happily fly on to, or beyond TBO (the general condition of the aircraft suggests a very particular owner who doesn't skimp) or it might not.
If I REALLY wanted or needed TN I would be tempted to buy this aeroplane (assuming it is as represented- i.e. georgous) for say 15k less than asking price and see what sort of an exchange I could get for the engine on a GAMIspec TNIO550b. The prop is a Blac Mac by the look of it so compatable with the 550b. The air con is a bit of a worry...they are a pain and it would be likely to contribute to CofG problems...I'd have it removed and sell it.
You could end up with an absolutely FANTASTIC aeroplane for less than US$200k.
You could do all the above with a similar mid 70s A36...I think you'd end up with a better aeroplane for a little more money but A36s do attract a premium.
Or you could spend 2+ times the $ on a new Cirrus
I really cannot get my head around that
V35s,
A36s,
You mention 400nm trips weekly. Fuel at both ends? If so tip tanks not required as a normal Bo will do 750nm easy...more LOP.
Turbonormalising?
Turbulence can clearly be an issue in NZ due terrain and strong winds so far south. Icing levels too.
Turbonormalising will give you the chance to get above both those more often than not. It also gives you a significant gross weight increase and moves the CofG in a V35 about 1.5in forward so you would find that, for instance, a TN V35b with a decent yaw damper might actually become a realistic 4 seater + bags + enough fuel to safely fly 400nm even without tip tanks.
The gross weight increases seem to be very model specific but a little poke around suggested that some models of A36 could be as much as 450lbs.
TN is anything but cheap...about US$50k to add it onto an existing engine
A Gamispec TNIO550b is about US$75k...it'd be one HELL of a great engine butIt might be cheaper to buy an aeroplane that is already thusly equiped and let the previous owner cop the capital loss on the TN mod....Unless you really are going to keep the aeroplane a very long time then it can make sense to buy a older aircraft that is good in all other respects and spend the cubic $ to make it as you want it to be.
As an example...there are only 2 TN A36s in that link above...the cheaper of the two was an '81 model they are asking USD245k odd for...the other a 98ish at 400k++. Non of the V35s are advertised as TN and I could find any that were...BUT....take this one with a nearly run out engine argue em down another 15k and drop a Gamispec TNIO550 in it for about US$200k total.
http://www.aso.com/i.aso3/aircraft_v...xxxregionid=-1
Make no mistake...many people would say that that % of the value of the aeroplane spent forward of the firewall is lunacy but you're going to be spending money on an engine overhaul anyway so you're really only talking about the incremental cost of the TN and the extra bits and bobs that make it Gami spec...porting/balancing/polishing Millenium cylinders etc.
If you intend to keep the aeroplane long term it is probably worth doing...it wouldn't be if you were likely to want a twin in a few years.
I've gotta say that if I was in the market for a V35 the 76 model above would be near the top of any list...everything about it is impressive (already has a yaw damper for starters) except the engine. It doesn't say so but it would likely be an IO520BB and it has 500hrs left to recommended TBO. Now it might be owned by a really carefull and knowledgable pilot and happily fly on to, or beyond TBO (the general condition of the aircraft suggests a very particular owner who doesn't skimp) or it might not.
If I REALLY wanted or needed TN I would be tempted to buy this aeroplane (assuming it is as represented- i.e. georgous) for say 15k less than asking price and see what sort of an exchange I could get for the engine on a GAMIspec TNIO550b. The prop is a Blac Mac by the look of it so compatable with the 550b. The air con is a bit of a worry...they are a pain and it would be likely to contribute to CofG problems...I'd have it removed and sell it.
You could end up with an absolutely FANTASTIC aeroplane for less than US$200k.
You could do all the above with a similar mid 70s A36...I think you'd end up with a better aeroplane for a little more money but A36s do attract a premium.
Or you could spend 2+ times the $ on a new Cirrus
I really cannot get my head around that
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based in queenstown, even across the country, with a current all-winter freezing level of around (and lower than) 5000', a non de-iced single is a waste of time. even a high performance one.
even with a bit of warmer weather, freezing is at 7000', yesterday buildups topping at 8-9000' across the north island. you won't be getting out of queenstown in the winter very often.
would have thought something like this was more the machine... http://www.trade-a-plane.com/clsfdspecs/756654
it's so much fun spending other people's money
even with a bit of warmer weather, freezing is at 7000', yesterday buildups topping at 8-9000' across the north island. you won't be getting out of queenstown in the winter very often.
would have thought something like this was more the machine... http://www.trade-a-plane.com/clsfdspecs/756654
it's so much fun spending other people's money
Last edited by toolowtoofast; 15th Sep 2007 at 22:14.
Grandpa Aerotart
You'd be amazed how often you don't pick up much, if any, ice in 'icing conditions'...particularly on a quick climb though to VMC on top.
Having said that you can get an STC'd TKS deicing mode for Bonanzas....it would get you up through several thousand feet of potential icing everytime....currently not approved 'known icing' but they are working on that. TKS (glycol weeping wing leading edge system) and a hot prop on a TN Bonanza would be a formidable IFR machine....and for a lot less than that Piper Meridian
Having said that you can get an STC'd TKS deicing mode for Bonanzas....it would get you up through several thousand feet of potential icing everytime....currently not approved 'known icing' but they are working on that. TKS (glycol weeping wing leading edge system) and a hot prop on a TN Bonanza would be a formidable IFR machine....and for a lot less than that Piper Meridian
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it's more the 500fpm descent through 5000' of imc into Wellington when it's glugged out at 600'agl that would be the concern.
just playing devils advocate really. surely a pneumatic de-ice system and hot props is available for a bonanza?
just playing devils advocate really. surely a pneumatic de-ice system and hot props is available for a bonanza?
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Bos and IFR in NZ
FTDK, you were invited to this conversation in my first post - see Question 7!! Admittedly, I spelt your moniker slightly wrong, but still...
It appears you just sleep in on Sundays more than the rest of us. I'm not sure where CC was, but it appears he, like me, may have been up at about 6am!!!
Anyway, re CC's comments on building the perfect aircraft, I’ve discovered many times now that one should “never say forever” when it comes to aircraft. So much as it might make sense to spend big bucks on the perfect engine and amortise over two decades of flying, well, I don’t know what I’ll want to be flying in two years let along two decades, so I don’t think that US$75K engine would be all that wise. The machine you picked out, though, CC, certainly looks pretty damn good. Although I wouldn’t have thought 1200 SMOH on engine would be exactly high time – surely a normally aspirated Continental like that is going to go to at least 1600, of not more, all things being equal? That’d be at least 3 years flying for me, given that it wouldn’t be my only aircraft, so probably no need to swap donks just yet. Still – would I be right in saying that one would be good for maybe 170 knots cruise anyway? And thank you for heeding my emotions and finding me a V-tail J
Re retrofitting a TN, I dunno, that extra 20 knots, or whatever, that you pick up through TN probably isn’t really worth it on a 400 NM trip. Yes, there’s fuel at both ends, and en route, but I’m a great fan of being able to take more fuel if you need to. NZ mountain flying conditions, VFR anyway, mean that the more endurance I have, the happier I feel. So tip tanks are a definite. Presumably they somehow add to GW by producing their own lift due aerofoil shape, or some such?
I feel just the same as you re new aircraft v older ones in good nick with new systems. I’ll chase up this particular Bo a little more. I notice it doesn’t seem to have any ice protection. Is ice protection the sort of thing one can reasonably retrofit, or is it also something you want the previous owner to have swallowed? Do these Bos have any built-in ice protection?
TLTF, I quite take your point about the freezing level and so on. Queenstown, in particular, is a difficult IFR environment too, so this makes it even harder. I guess I was thinking it might be a case of flying low VFR from QN to Alex, and taking it from there. I certainly don’t anticipate airline-style IFR trips from Queenstown to Otaki, but surely the ability to go IFR opens up different options, even in winter? I am not, in any way arguing with you – here to learn, so all comments welcomed…
And no, US$1.1 million is just a teeny bit out of my budget Speaking of budget, anything with a whirly-jet - a la Extra 500 - is WAY out of my league. Even a second hand Bonanza or similar is getting a bit silly, but, I dunno, how much would you pay to not see your girlfriend puke on your dog?
It appears you just sleep in on Sundays more than the rest of us. I'm not sure where CC was, but it appears he, like me, may have been up at about 6am!!!
Anyway, re CC's comments on building the perfect aircraft, I’ve discovered many times now that one should “never say forever” when it comes to aircraft. So much as it might make sense to spend big bucks on the perfect engine and amortise over two decades of flying, well, I don’t know what I’ll want to be flying in two years let along two decades, so I don’t think that US$75K engine would be all that wise. The machine you picked out, though, CC, certainly looks pretty damn good. Although I wouldn’t have thought 1200 SMOH on engine would be exactly high time – surely a normally aspirated Continental like that is going to go to at least 1600, of not more, all things being equal? That’d be at least 3 years flying for me, given that it wouldn’t be my only aircraft, so probably no need to swap donks just yet. Still – would I be right in saying that one would be good for maybe 170 knots cruise anyway? And thank you for heeding my emotions and finding me a V-tail J
Re retrofitting a TN, I dunno, that extra 20 knots, or whatever, that you pick up through TN probably isn’t really worth it on a 400 NM trip. Yes, there’s fuel at both ends, and en route, but I’m a great fan of being able to take more fuel if you need to. NZ mountain flying conditions, VFR anyway, mean that the more endurance I have, the happier I feel. So tip tanks are a definite. Presumably they somehow add to GW by producing their own lift due aerofoil shape, or some such?
I feel just the same as you re new aircraft v older ones in good nick with new systems. I’ll chase up this particular Bo a little more. I notice it doesn’t seem to have any ice protection. Is ice protection the sort of thing one can reasonably retrofit, or is it also something you want the previous owner to have swallowed? Do these Bos have any built-in ice protection?
TLTF, I quite take your point about the freezing level and so on. Queenstown, in particular, is a difficult IFR environment too, so this makes it even harder. I guess I was thinking it might be a case of flying low VFR from QN to Alex, and taking it from there. I certainly don’t anticipate airline-style IFR trips from Queenstown to Otaki, but surely the ability to go IFR opens up different options, even in winter? I am not, in any way arguing with you – here to learn, so all comments welcomed…
And no, US$1.1 million is just a teeny bit out of my budget
Speaking of budget, anything with a whirly-jet - a la Extra 500 - is WAY out of my league. Even a second hand Bonanza or similar is getting a bit silly, but, I dunno, how much would you pay to not see your girlfriend puke on your dog?
Last edited by lostpianoplayer; 15th Sep 2007 at 23:40. Reason: update
lostpianoplayer
V-tail Bonanzas
1. What are the best models of the BE35? One might argue that the latest model is the best. The V35B is generally acknowledged as the best cause it is the most advanced and has the highest Max TOW. I think the S model is considered the fastest. Because the V35B has the highest gross wt it also has the biggest C og G issues.
2. How fast? How long is a piece of string! Depends how you fly it. I rarely fly mine below 8000', for two reasons. 1) In my part of the world you generally have to get up high to get a reasonably smooth ride, and 2) I am usually looking for good range with comfortable IFR reserves.
My Bo is a 1977 V35B with a recently rebuilt IO520B and a Scimitar prop. It is well equipped with avionics but does not have an all cyclinder engine monitor so I do not fly it LOP. I fly it by-the-book at 25o ROP on the EGT.
I climb it at 2500/25" or full throttle. It holds 25" to about 5000'. It consistently does 10,000' in 12 min at gross weight. Burns about 72l/hr in the climb.
I generally cruise it on 2300/full throttle (which is 21" at 10k) and 25o ROP. This is about 65% power - gives me a TAS of 160 kts and burns 50l/hr for an endurance of 5.25 hr (with a climb to 10k) and a nil wind range with 1 hr reserve of 680 nm. If I pull it back to 2200/21" (full throttle) at 9 or 10k, the TAS comes back to 155 kts and the fuel burn drops to 45l/hr giving about 6hrs endurance.
I guess at full throttle height (5000?) and 2500 it will do maybe 165 or better and burn 60l/hr.
3. Any reason to get or avoid turbocharging? I have no experience of the turbonormalising of which Chuck speaks. For the sort of flying I do where I am generally below 10,000', my only eperience with turbocharging in a single was a turbo'd C182RG. In my hands it was no faster than the normally aspirated model and used 15l/hr more fuel. I have no use for turbocharging, don't know about turbo-normalising, but if putting together my ideal V35B would opt for an IO540.
4. No
5. Any tricks to look out for? What Chuck says! If the tail mod has been done you can forget the crap about the tail falling off them. Even before the tail mod was done you had to totally loose control of the aeroplane first to break it. Yes, you need to pay attention to flight control balance after repaint etc to avoid flutter issues. Spar web cracking, wing bolt inspections, crankcase cracks in IO520s. Get it inspected by a LAME who knows Bo's and have it maintained by same.
6. Any other fast singles you'd recommend? A36, Mooney, C210.
7. Anyone running a Bo LOP? No not me. Chucks your man.
8. Other thoughts? Hmmmmm - Yeah lots! I'll just take the Boss shopping and then get back to you.
Dr
V-tail Bonanzas
1. What are the best models of the BE35? One might argue that the latest model is the best. The V35B is generally acknowledged as the best cause it is the most advanced and has the highest Max TOW. I think the S model is considered the fastest. Because the V35B has the highest gross wt it also has the biggest C og G issues.
2. How fast? How long is a piece of string! Depends how you fly it. I rarely fly mine below 8000', for two reasons. 1) In my part of the world you generally have to get up high to get a reasonably smooth ride, and 2) I am usually looking for good range with comfortable IFR reserves.
My Bo is a 1977 V35B with a recently rebuilt IO520B and a Scimitar prop. It is well equipped with avionics but does not have an all cyclinder engine monitor so I do not fly it LOP. I fly it by-the-book at 25o ROP on the EGT.
I climb it at 2500/25" or full throttle. It holds 25" to about 5000'. It consistently does 10,000' in 12 min at gross weight. Burns about 72l/hr in the climb.
I generally cruise it on 2300/full throttle (which is 21" at 10k) and 25o ROP. This is about 65% power - gives me a TAS of 160 kts and burns 50l/hr for an endurance of 5.25 hr (with a climb to 10k) and a nil wind range with 1 hr reserve of 680 nm. If I pull it back to 2200/21" (full throttle) at 9 or 10k, the TAS comes back to 155 kts and the fuel burn drops to 45l/hr giving about 6hrs endurance.
I guess at full throttle height (5000?) and 2500 it will do maybe 165 or better and burn 60l/hr.
3. Any reason to get or avoid turbocharging? I have no experience of the turbonormalising of which Chuck speaks. For the sort of flying I do where I am generally below 10,000', my only eperience with turbocharging in a single was a turbo'd C182RG. In my hands it was no faster than the normally aspirated model and used 15l/hr more fuel. I have no use for turbocharging, don't know about turbo-normalising, but if putting together my ideal V35B would opt for an IO540.
4. No
5. Any tricks to look out for? What Chuck says! If the tail mod has been done you can forget the crap about the tail falling off them. Even before the tail mod was done you had to totally loose control of the aeroplane first to break it. Yes, you need to pay attention to flight control balance after repaint etc to avoid flutter issues. Spar web cracking, wing bolt inspections, crankcase cracks in IO520s. Get it inspected by a LAME who knows Bo's and have it maintained by same.
6. Any other fast singles you'd recommend? A36, Mooney, C210.
7. Anyone running a Bo LOP? No not me. Chucks your man.
8. Other thoughts? Hmmmmm - Yeah lots! I'll just take the Boss shopping and then get back to you.
Dr
Last edited by ForkTailedDrKiller; 16th Sep 2007 at 01:15.
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Just throwing this in here...typically the Beech aircraft (Barons in particular) are less popular in NZ as they seem to be more susceptible to corrosion.
Have you considered one of the newer Mooneys? Seriously good bang for you buck...
Have you considered one of the newer Mooneys? Seriously good bang for you buck...
Have had my Sunday morning caffeine shot!
"Standard V35s are not 4 - 6 seater"
Certainly not a 6 seater. Mine had a fifth seat until I had it pulled out. Can't image putting anything other than a small child back there.
But is it a 4 seater or only a 3 seater?
The reality is - full fuel, you, the missus, the dog and some luggage - not a problem.
Let's take a look at the weight/balance issues for the V35B.
Start with full fuel (284 L) and use 4 L for taxi and 220 of it for a flight, leaving 60 L (1 conservative hour) reserves. Put 4 x 80 kg people in it and you are pretty much right on the limits of Zero Fuel, Take-off and Landing weights and C of G.
Put me in the left hand front seat (100 kg) and another big bloke (90 kg) up there with me and you can only put 130 kg of pax in the back seat and no luggage.
Unless you and the missus are a tonnage, then you, the missus, a couple of sprogs, the dog and some luggage would be a no brainer for a V35B. Its when your sprogs are taller than you that you may run into problems.
"Although I hear C of G in Bo's in WORSE, not better with BURNOFF"
That's what I had always though too! Another one of aviations great furphies (?), I'm afraid.
The C of G in the V35B does NOT GET BETTER with burn off, IT STAYS THE SAME - until you get down to quite low fuel loads, then it does get slightly worse with fuel burn.
The reality is that unless you are operating at the extremes of weight and C of G, if it is in the envelope on departure it will be in the envelope on landing.
".. and they do wag their tail a lot which can be VERY sick inducing for rear seat pax"
All Bonanzas and Barons wag their tail in turbulence - its a characteristic of the basic design, largely the forward placement of the wing.
V-tails just do it better!
Mine does not have a yaw damper, but I have not found this to be a significant issue. Maybe a nice to have but not an essential. The axis of wag is between the two front seats so it doesn't bother those occupants particularly, but it will make back seat pax sick if allowed to continue for any length of time. A 2-axis AP will really struggle with this but I find that if I hand fly the aeroplane I can make most of the wag go away.
The other furphy is that the V-tails are faster than the equivalent straight tail Bo because they have less drag from one less surface - they are not. Both do pretty much the same speed.
"... anyone with private IFR experience in NZ. Single pilot, single engine. A good friend at CAA has always told me its pretty hard, a little dangerous, and ATC is not wildly keen on private IFR. Are the risks managemeable? Icing airspace, workload SP, lack of redundancy ....?"
Sounds like more generally uninformed aviation crap to me!
I have flown private IFR in NZ and Oz, and have flown a lot of fairly hard core IFR in the FTDK in the last 3 years. My NZ experience is 20 years old but I never detected any feeling from ATC that they didn't like me doing it, and I certainly don't in Oz either - as long as you can operate professionally in the IFR environment.
Single pilot, single engine IFR is a serious risk management case study. You need to be well trained and current, and if you are, you should be confident in your ability to perform at the required level - or else do yourself a favour and DON'T.
These are some of my personal risk management strategies. Others may disagree, but I don't give a flying fig - this is what works for me.
1) I am pretty much the only person who flies the aeroplane. Others who occassionally fly it I trust to operate it by the book - my book. The aeroplane is maintained by one organisation that know Bo's and that I trust. Scrimping on maintenance is NOT an issue. If its broke or needs replaced it gets done.
2) I am well trained and experienced. I do my annual renewals with a highly experienced ATO, who always puts me through the grinder. I fly all of the renewal in the aeroplane and I fly all approaches at every renewal. I try to do 6 month check flights with the same ATO. I hand fly all of the approaches for my renewals.
3) I would not launch into what could be prolonged flight in IMC without a functioning AP. Mine is coupled to the GPS, VOR, ILS and has Alt hold. I generally let the AP fly the approached and monitor it.
4) I have multiple redundancy for everything but the engine - electric AH as well as the standard air presure driven one, although I am quite comfortable on partial panel - TSO's GPS with moving map (Garmin 430), VOR, ILS, ADF and a second non-TSO'd GPS (Garmin 296) of the yolk that I would use to fly an Appr if necessary - 3rd GPS in my flight bag - Jeppesen FliteDeck moving map and electronic flightbag running on a Motion Computing Tablet computer on the yolk that is coupled to the Garmin 296 - 2 x VHF, hand-held VHF with VOR display, Next G mobile phone, satellite phone and two EPIRBs.
5) I rarely fly more than 3 hour legs if the weather looks a bit suspect - so I have a 2 - 3 hour margin up my sleve if needed.
6) In my part of the world the weather to watch out for is pretty much restricted to fog/stratus on the deck and CBs. I do not fly in IMC when there is any chance of embedded CBs as I do not have radar or a stormscope. Isolated CBs aren't such an issue cause you can generally see and dodge them.
Once you are used to it, I would much rather operate on an IFR plan than a VFR plan. It is generally easier and much less stressful.
Dr
"Standard V35s are not 4 - 6 seater"
Certainly not a 6 seater. Mine had a fifth seat until I had it pulled out. Can't image putting anything other than a small child back there.
But is it a 4 seater or only a 3 seater?
The reality is - full fuel, you, the missus, the dog and some luggage - not a problem.
Let's take a look at the weight/balance issues for the V35B.
Start with full fuel (284 L) and use 4 L for taxi and 220 of it for a flight, leaving 60 L (1 conservative hour) reserves. Put 4 x 80 kg people in it and you are pretty much right on the limits of Zero Fuel, Take-off and Landing weights and C of G.
Put me in the left hand front seat (100 kg) and another big bloke (90 kg) up there with me and you can only put 130 kg of pax in the back seat and no luggage.
Unless you and the missus are a tonnage, then you, the missus, a couple of sprogs, the dog and some luggage would be a no brainer for a V35B. Its when your sprogs are taller than you that you may run into problems.
"Although I hear C of G in Bo's in WORSE, not better with BURNOFF"
That's what I had always though too! Another one of aviations great furphies (?), I'm afraid.
The C of G in the V35B does NOT GET BETTER with burn off, IT STAYS THE SAME - until you get down to quite low fuel loads, then it does get slightly worse with fuel burn.
The reality is that unless you are operating at the extremes of weight and C of G, if it is in the envelope on departure it will be in the envelope on landing.
".. and they do wag their tail a lot which can be VERY sick inducing for rear seat pax"
All Bonanzas and Barons wag their tail in turbulence - its a characteristic of the basic design, largely the forward placement of the wing.
V-tails just do it better!
Mine does not have a yaw damper, but I have not found this to be a significant issue. Maybe a nice to have but not an essential. The axis of wag is between the two front seats so it doesn't bother those occupants particularly, but it will make back seat pax sick if allowed to continue for any length of time. A 2-axis AP will really struggle with this but I find that if I hand fly the aeroplane I can make most of the wag go away.
The other furphy is that the V-tails are faster than the equivalent straight tail Bo because they have less drag from one less surface - they are not. Both do pretty much the same speed.
"... anyone with private IFR experience in NZ. Single pilot, single engine. A good friend at CAA has always told me its pretty hard, a little dangerous, and ATC is not wildly keen on private IFR. Are the risks managemeable? Icing airspace, workload SP, lack of redundancy ....?"
Sounds like more generally uninformed aviation crap to me!
I have flown private IFR in NZ and Oz, and have flown a lot of fairly hard core IFR in the FTDK in the last 3 years. My NZ experience is 20 years old but I never detected any feeling from ATC that they didn't like me doing it, and I certainly don't in Oz either - as long as you can operate professionally in the IFR environment.
Single pilot, single engine IFR is a serious risk management case study. You need to be well trained and current, and if you are, you should be confident in your ability to perform at the required level - or else do yourself a favour and DON'T.
These are some of my personal risk management strategies. Others may disagree, but I don't give a flying fig - this is what works for me.
1) I am pretty much the only person who flies the aeroplane. Others who occassionally fly it I trust to operate it by the book - my book. The aeroplane is maintained by one organisation that know Bo's and that I trust. Scrimping on maintenance is NOT an issue. If its broke or needs replaced it gets done.
2) I am well trained and experienced. I do my annual renewals with a highly experienced ATO, who always puts me through the grinder. I fly all of the renewal in the aeroplane and I fly all approaches at every renewal. I try to do 6 month check flights with the same ATO. I hand fly all of the approaches for my renewals.
3) I would not launch into what could be prolonged flight in IMC without a functioning AP. Mine is coupled to the GPS, VOR, ILS and has Alt hold. I generally let the AP fly the approached and monitor it.
4) I have multiple redundancy for everything but the engine - electric AH as well as the standard air presure driven one, although I am quite comfortable on partial panel - TSO's GPS with moving map (Garmin 430), VOR, ILS, ADF and a second non-TSO'd GPS (Garmin 296) of the yolk that I would use to fly an Appr if necessary - 3rd GPS in my flight bag - Jeppesen FliteDeck moving map and electronic flightbag running on a Motion Computing Tablet computer on the yolk that is coupled to the Garmin 296 - 2 x VHF, hand-held VHF with VOR display, Next G mobile phone, satellite phone and two EPIRBs.
5) I rarely fly more than 3 hour legs if the weather looks a bit suspect - so I have a 2 - 3 hour margin up my sleve if needed.
6) In my part of the world the weather to watch out for is pretty much restricted to fog/stratus on the deck and CBs. I do not fly in IMC when there is any chance of embedded CBs as I do not have radar or a stormscope. Isolated CBs aren't such an issue cause you can generally see and dodge them.
Once you are used to it, I would much rather operate on an IFR plan than a VFR plan. It is generally easier and much less stressful.
Dr
Last edited by ForkTailedDrKiller; 16th Sep 2007 at 07:14.
".... and then there is icing!"
Must confess it scares the cr*p outta me.
I used to fly a PA28 in NZ and picked up a bit of ice on occassions and I flew a C310 from Nth Qld to Melbourne during the pilots strike and got nicely frosted over on climb out into VMC from Mudgee.
On a recent trip from Canberra to Essendon when the Lowest safe was about 7000 and the freezing level forecast to be 9000 I sat at 10000 watching the raindrops run up the windshield and assessing my "outs" the whole time.
The Bonanza is a strong climber to 10000. I would think in NZ maybe prop de-ice would be minimum essential equipment for any serious IFR. One advantage of NZ over much of Oz is that it is generally not far to the sea if you need to bail out of icing, but you would need to look closely at the routes you fly.
Like all places, there will be days when you are best to stay on the ground, but with a bit of sensible thinking and judicious risk assessment you should be able to get around safely most of the time.
Dr
Must confess it scares the cr*p outta me.
I used to fly a PA28 in NZ and picked up a bit of ice on occassions and I flew a C310 from Nth Qld to Melbourne during the pilots strike and got nicely frosted over on climb out into VMC from Mudgee.
On a recent trip from Canberra to Essendon when the Lowest safe was about 7000 and the freezing level forecast to be 9000 I sat at 10000 watching the raindrops run up the windshield and assessing my "outs" the whole time.
The Bonanza is a strong climber to 10000. I would think in NZ maybe prop de-ice would be minimum essential equipment for any serious IFR. One advantage of NZ over much of Oz is that it is generally not far to the sea if you need to bail out of icing, but you would need to look closely at the routes you fly.
Like all places, there will be days when you are best to stay on the ground, but with a bit of sensible thinking and judicious risk assessment you should be able to get around safely most of the time.
Dr
Last edited by ForkTailedDrKiller; 16th Sep 2007 at 07:16.
I gotta agree with Chuck - the V-tail Bonanza is the sexiest thing around.
Fun to fly, beautifully light and well co-ordinated controls, goes like the clappers.
But if it were me - I'd buy an A36.
Dr
PS: There's a Mooney that comes in here occassionally that has an IO540 in it. Sweetest idling thing I have heard. Cruises at 190 kts. I would like to have a drive of that!
Fun to fly, beautifully light and well co-ordinated controls, goes like the clappers.
But if it were me - I'd buy an A36.
Dr
PS: There's a Mooney that comes in here occassionally that has an IO540 in it. Sweetest idling thing I have heard. Cruises at 190 kts. I would like to have a drive of that!
Last edited by ForkTailedDrKiller; 16th Sep 2007 at 07:17.
Have you considered:
Cessna 177RG Cardinal: Beautiful looking machine. Lovely to fly. The 200hp Fuel Injected models are the best. About 140 KTAS, fuel burn about 40 liters/ hour. Comfortable interior but not a true four seater.
Cessna R182: The closest you will get to a true four seater. About 145KTAS, fuel burn about 50 liters/ hour and huge range with 334 liters useable fuel. Carby fed Lycoming IO-540 is not as nice as the fuel injected models.
Cessna 210: If you want the best some N models are equipped with dual alternators and dual vacuum pumps. They are a good stable IFR platform. About 155 KTAS, fuel burn about 60 liters/ hour with 338 liters useable fuel. The main drawback is that access to the cabin is only via the two front doors which sucks if you will be carrying passengers regularly in the back row.
Piper Saratoga Piper Lance
I don't have much experience with Bonanza's. Didn't they impose some sort of speed restriction on the V-tail models?
Cessna 177RG Cardinal: Beautiful looking machine. Lovely to fly. The 200hp Fuel Injected models are the best. About 140 KTAS, fuel burn about 40 liters/ hour. Comfortable interior but not a true four seater.
Cessna R182: The closest you will get to a true four seater. About 145KTAS, fuel burn about 50 liters/ hour and huge range with 334 liters useable fuel. Carby fed Lycoming IO-540 is not as nice as the fuel injected models.
Cessna 210: If you want the best some N models are equipped with dual alternators and dual vacuum pumps. They are a good stable IFR platform. About 155 KTAS, fuel burn about 60 liters/ hour with 338 liters useable fuel. The main drawback is that access to the cabin is only via the two front doors which sucks if you will be carrying passengers regularly in the back row.
Piper Saratoga
Piper Lance I don't have much experience with Bonanza's. Didn't they impose some sort of speed restriction on the V-tail models?
"Didn't they impose some sort of speed restriction on the V-tail models?
Only until such time as a mod was carried out. A stiffener was placed where the leading edge of the tailplane joins the fuselage.
Dr
Only until such time as a mod was carried out. A stiffener was placed where the leading edge of the tailplane joins the fuselage.
Dr
Grandpa Aerotart
What happened to the plan to ferry your Aztec out from the states?
That is the aeroplane you need to cut yor IFR teeth on...not least because you already own it. Stable, long ranged, can be outfitted (if not already) with pneumatic de ice boots/hot props/heated windscreen plate, roomy, comfortable, only gives away about 10-15kts to a Bo, climbs well...system redundancy..and did I mention you already own it
In the current market, and this is something that is not going to change in the medium term, aeroplanes in this category are VERY difficult things to sell in a reasonable time frame without taking a financial hosing. They are not like exotic cars that find a ready market...it's not the 1970s when the used aircraft market was quite lively and aeroplanes sold reasonably quickly and used prices were actually appreciating slightly for well maintained aircraft.
There are VASTLY more used aircraft on the market than buyers...people who are buying in this class of aeroplane are happily plonking down $500k on new Cirrus aircraft or new Cessnas...the other part of the market that is booming is new SAA types and home builts like your Harmon Rocket and the RVs.
The industry seems to have disowned the many 1000s of classic aircraft in a rush of indecent haste to drool over G1000 instrument panels which, lets face it, are the ONLY technological advance over a V35 that the Cirrus or new Cessna have. Same engine,prop and in the case of the Cessnas the same airframe technology but the G1000 is got everybody dribbling...and, in my view, putting people into conditions that exceed their ability. It's the 21st century equivalent of the 1960s/70s marketting from Piper, Cessna et al that convinced so many people that flying an aeroplane was no different to driving a car...sold lots of aeroplanes and killed lots of people....and is the reason why there are so many aircraft like that 76 V35b above that even after 30 years have only a few thousand hrs on the airframe and are ripe for upgrades with modern technology avionics that make them at LEAST as good as any new aeroplane for a fraction of the capital cost.
That is the aeroplane you need to cut yor IFR teeth on...not least because you already own it. Stable, long ranged, can be outfitted (if not already) with pneumatic de ice boots/hot props/heated windscreen plate, roomy, comfortable, only gives away about 10-15kts to a Bo, climbs well...system redundancy..and did I mention you already own it
In the current market, and this is something that is not going to change in the medium term, aeroplanes in this category are VERY difficult things to sell in a reasonable time frame without taking a financial hosing. They are not like exotic cars that find a ready market...it's not the 1970s when the used aircraft market was quite lively and aeroplanes sold reasonably quickly and used prices were actually appreciating slightly for well maintained aircraft.
There are VASTLY more used aircraft on the market than buyers...people who are buying in this class of aeroplane are happily plonking down $500k on new Cirrus aircraft or new Cessnas...the other part of the market that is booming is new SAA types and home builts like your Harmon Rocket and the RVs.
The industry seems to have disowned the many 1000s of classic aircraft in a rush of indecent haste to drool over G1000 instrument panels which, lets face it, are the ONLY technological advance over a V35 that the Cirrus or new Cessna have. Same engine,prop and in the case of the Cessnas the same airframe technology but the G1000 is got everybody dribbling...and, in my view, putting people into conditions that exceed their ability. It's the 21st century equivalent of the 1960s/70s marketting from Piper, Cessna et al that convinced so many people that flying an aeroplane was no different to driving a car...sold lots of aeroplanes and killed lots of people....and is the reason why there are so many aircraft like that 76 V35b above that even after 30 years have only a few thousand hrs on the airframe and are ripe for upgrades with modern technology avionics that make them at LEAST as good as any new aeroplane for a fraction of the capital cost.