Why do pilots keep paying for Endorsements?

[Grivation]

As DJ are now finding out -

"It's my type rating. I paid for it. And I'll take it and use it anywhere in the world that I like."

[Dave Incognito]

Comparing going to uni vs. paying for an endorsement is a tad far fetched. Wannabe doctors don’t go for job interviews at a hospital and if successful, go and fork out 30 grand to enrol at uni. Doctors sure as hell don’t hand over 30 grand to become specialists. They actually get paid while they are training. A much better analogy would be comparing uni to flying school.

The “making yourself more employable” argument only really sits if you are paying for these endorsements before you apply for a particular job…

[remoak]

Personally i'd prefer to get the job on merit. I'd prefer my family to be sitting behind the guy who got the job on merit, not the guy with the richest parents. Call it personal preference.

A completely fallacious argument. Jobs are offered on the basis of merit... it is just that applicants are selected from a smaller pool (ie ones who can pay for type ratings). You still have to pass the course and the check at the end of it.

What do you think this doctor is going to say upon completion when you tell him he now needs to pay 40 grand simply for the privilege of being allowed to work.

Another fallacious argument. You don't have to pay 40 grand to work as commercial pilot. But you may have to if you want to fly a jet - you need a further qualification to do that. That is your choice. Doctors are no different - if they want to specialise, they have to do the additional 7 years of study plus any extra courses required. Yes, they can work (later in their studies), but they work very long hours for very little money and still have to pay for those extra years at med school.

Why don't I just walk into Qantas tomorrow and throw 200 grand at them and say here, take that, now give me a job.

Because you would first have to prove your ability and qualifications. As you don't work for Qantas (I assume) you are obviously not attractive to them, no matter how much money you might have. They aren't stupid.

For me personally its entirely an issue of principle.

Good for you. Enjoy your career in GA.

All you will end up with is a continually decreasing quality in your airline applicant as the best and brightest choose more rewarding fields.

The best and the brightest haven't chosen aviation since the '50s. They do the things that are far better career choices. You only have to look at the spellling and grammatical ability on this forum to assess the academic ability of most pilots. The academic requirements for an ATPL are closer to college level than first-year University.

And yet, curiously, there are less accidents and less fatalities every year. Hmmm. Another fallacious argument.

The people who choose a career in flying do so because they love flying (or because they want to impress girls with their shiny uniform).

Doctors sure as hell don’t hand over 30 grand to become specialists.

No, they just hand over seven extra years of their lives, plus the med school costs, work twenty hour days with no FTL protection, and get paid very little. Most are still paying off their study bill ten years later. Pilots have it soooo hard...

[Dave Incognito]

seven extra years of their lives

Whilst in full time employment, generally with better conditions than what most people experience in general aviation

work twenty hour days

While most specialists put in big hours, lets not get carried away.

get paid very little

A registrar earns more than what most GA or regional pilots take home.

Most are still paying off their study bill ten years later

Most pilots are still paying off their flying school loans after 10 years.

How many specialist doctors would pay up front to get a job at a hospital because they had never used a particular brand of CT scanner etc.? Next to none.

[puma4319]

IMHO...the industry is looking good for all pilots. We are finally in need, and we can use this to make better conditions for us all. No need to bag guys who have already paid for their endorsement, that was there choice, and their loss.


Why doesn't everyone work together, rather than walking all over each other to get a job? Paying for endorsements will go out the door, and T&C's will get better I hope!

I think things will stay the way they are until everyone realises that these airlines NEED us...i've heard Virgin and Rex are already cancelling flights due to being short of drivers

just my 2 cents

[Cloud Cutter]

As DJ are now finding out -
"It's my type rating. I paid for it. And I'll take it and use it anywhere in the world that I like."

Absolutely, that's how it works. If you are prepared to buy a type rating, you will quite likely be prepared to market that skill. Airlines have to factor that, and it may cause problems for some. It can place you in a viable position for other contracts if you're that way inclined.

[das Uber Soldat]

Another fallacious argument. You don't have to pay 40 grand to work as commercial pilot. But you may have to if you want to fly a jet - you need a further qualification to do that. That is your choice. Doctors are no different - if they want to specialise, they have to do the additional 7 years of study plus any extra courses required. Yes, they can work (later in their studies), but they work very long hours for very little money and still have to pay for those extra years at med school.

The unsuitability of medical school as an analogy has already been covered. I'm well aware I 'may' have to pay for an endorsement. But I shouldn't have to. And if pilots used their brains and looked further ahead than their own next 6 months then nobody would have to. Thats what i'm driving towards. You can deride me with your 'good luck in your career in GA' comments like i'm beneath those who posses the skill to autoland such magnificent 'wider bodied' aircraft but it doesn't really affect the argument at hand.

I don't work for Qantas because I haven't applied for Qantas. I see nothing special about those individuals who do. If your attitude is typical of those who are in their employ, then I believe my decision is validated.

You only have to look at the spellling and grammatical ability on this forum to assess the academic ability of most pilots.

Way to shoehorn almost the entire forum community. I might add you spelled "spelling" incorrectly. Lucky you're only a pilot.

And yet, curiously, there are less accidents and less fatalities every year. Hmmm. Another fallacious argument.

Im sure modern day flight decks, ATC facilities, TCAS and other technologies have no effect at all in the improved safety record aviation has enjoyed since the 1960's. Or is your point that the decline in quality of Airline candidates is irrelevant because of these items leading to improved safety overall?

Anyway the issue can go on forever. If you want to pay your way into a job go for it but I believe you're shooting not just everyone else in the feet but yourself also. Where do you draw the line as has been said? If you're prepared to pay for one thing why not another and another?

[das Uber Soldat]

actually remoak, some of the points you're making about spelling and grammar are starting to make sense.

[remoak]

You can deride me with your 'good luck in your career in GA' comments like i'm beneath those who posses the skill to autoland such magnificent 'wider bodied' aircraft but it doesn't really affect the argument at hand.

Don't know where you get that from. I'd be the first to agree that GA pilots are easily the equal of widebody pilots, in their own field of endeavour. It isn't about being better or worse, it is the simple reality that if you aren't prepared to play the game, you will probably never get to the airlines. That could be a good or a bad thing. GA is far more interesting than airline flying.

I don't work for Qantas because I haven't applied for Qantas. I see nothing special about those individuals who do.

By all means fail to understand the obvious - which is, that those who do get through the selection process have demonstrated a superior set of skills to the many, many more who fail to make the grade. They may not be better people, but they have performed to a higher level. That is the only "special" thing. Pity so many of them turn out to be a*seholes.

Many people who bleat on about "of course I never applied to airline xxx" either have never had a response to their application, have failed some part of the selection process, or know damn well that they wouldn't meet the criteria. Of course I am sure that you don't fit into any of those categories...

I might add you spelled "spelling" incorrectly. Lucky you're only a pilot.

...and I noticed that you failed to capitalise your "I"s. Guess you are just a pilot too. Do you really want to do the anal spelling thing? Of course you failed to answer the point, which is that the academic standard required of a pilot is very low.

Or is your point that the decline in quality of Airline candidates is irrelevant because of these items leading to improved safety overall?

Not at all. My point is that career pilots have NEVER been the best and brightest. You clearly haven't given the topic a lot of thought... because if you had, you would understand that a modern airline pilot is not required to be academically brilliant, a top-level sportsman or the best hands-on pilot on the planet. The required skill set predicates against high-flyers, always has. Most airline pilots are "competent" academically, fit enough to get a class 1, average in terms of handling. They also tend to be teachable and prepared to work under a strict rules and procedures, and these qualities are rarely found in the very highest achievers.

I believe you're shooting not just everyone else in the feet but yourself also. Where do you draw the line as has been said? If you're prepared to pay for one thing why not another and another?

Ah, I see. By equipping myself to obtain the job I want, I am shooting myself in the foot. Of course. Why didn't I see that...???

And exactly who else am I shooting in the foot? Those who either cannot, or don't want to, do what I did? Please do grow up. Using that logic, nobody should make any attempt to better themselves, we should all just conform to the lowest common denominator. Up the proletariat! Yeah...

You pay for what you want. If you don't want it, you don't have to pay for it. If you do want it, you do have to pay for it. If you can't pay for it, you can't have it (unless you have a Visa card and a big limit). Not unlike that Plasma TV I would like for my lounge.

That is where the line is.

[neville_nobody]

Please do not compare paying for endorsements vs degrees. Two totally different concepts.

If the doctor in the previous post happens to lose his job as a doctor because they close the hospital he's already qualified to do many other things because he has two degrees that he spent his money on. Or he can go and do more study and get a post graduate degree.

However if the pilot who paid for his A320 loses his job he's stuffed as it is non transferable. If he wanted to do a degree he'd have to be a undergraduate. He is qualified to do nothing else. You can't take a A320 endorsement and go and become a school teacher whereas the friendly doctor with a science degree could.

[das Uber Soldat]

We could pull apart each others answers and bait each other more or less all night. I don't agree with your viewpoint, you don't agree with mine.

Not really much point continuing.

Good luck with it.

[Track Direct]

Jetfume,

The days of paying for endorsements are coming to an abrupt end, it is already starting !

Lowering the requirements is only the beginning, as airlines continue to struggle to find crews, they will also end up meeting the cost of the endorsement.

[remoak]

However if the pilot who paid for his A320 loses his job he's stuffed as it is non transferable.

It's transferable to any other airline that operates the A320. In fact, with an A320 endorsement and a bit of experience, you will never be out of as job unless you do something silly or lose your medical. Same goes for a doctor, if he screws up, he can be struck off. Same if he becomes medically unable to perform his duties.

The doctor with the science degree can't just become a teacher, he has to go through teacher training - just like the pilot, if he wanted to become a teacher. Of course, the pilot can also go and do other things, for example sim instructing, groundschools, etc.

In the same way that your doctor can go and do a post-grad degree (not sure how he would with no job), the pilot can go off to university and get a degree, followed by a post-grad degree.

[Counter-rotation]

Which came first?

Yep, some will pay, some won't pay... The actual argument is a bit like the chicken and the egg.
I don't intend to pay for an endorsement, jet or otherwise.
In fact, I think that those who do pay will be far more likely to regret it, than those who refuse, particularly with things shaping up the way they are now. PPRuNe is an anonymous forum, but I reckon if all were revealed tomorrow, the "I won't pay - it's the principle of it" camp would be showing an average experience / time in the industry level somewhat above that of the "yeah I can afford it so show me a jet" camp. Just a feeling I get from reading this thread (and the many other similar ones).
I wouldn't mind so much if it was only your own future careers you were jeopardizing with such actions, but you see it's mine too, and every other professional pilot. You hand employers the wedge, thin end aimed at us all, and say "go for it". Think hard about your actions before you reply to this post. This is why it gets personal! Ask yourself honestly how you would feel and respond in the same position.
You ask for the debate to remain "professional" (I think that's what was said - if not I'm not interested in mincing up words you know what I mean) but you are acting in what must be considered a quite unprofessional manner.
Stop for a moment and just entertain the possibility that you DO NOT KNOW AS MUCH AS YOU THINK.
I'd encourage you to do this in general as you progress through your career. By listening to older/wiser heads (I don't mean myself either) it is possible to LEARN.
I can walk into my crew room and know I'm amongst friends. I don't sit in there "watching my back". It's a good feeling, far above the "every man for himself" mentality that you are promoting and participating in by funding your own endorsement.
Any one considering paying for an endorsement, be very careful. Think long and hard about all that it involves. The consequences may very well remain with you well past your 1000th jet hour. This is your chosen career, not a day at the beach ffs...
Why is it so hard to take anything other than a short term, immediate gratification stance? It really should be a no-brainer.
CR.

[Cryten]

I love these “we should all stick together and show the Airlines” posts. It’s great to see that mindless optimism is still alive and well in GA. I bet these guys are the same ones sitting on the couch, log book in hand, (with 200 hours logged) waiting for this famed “pilot shortage” to cut a little deeper.

Pilots in Air Lines do stick together, there are unions, it’s in everybody’s best interests to do so. It’s the guys wanting to get into the airlines who are letting down tires and cutting each other’s throats to get a leg up on that all so elusive ladder. Most successful pilots will do what ever is necessary to get the job they want, and some times that involves buying a rating. Most low cost carriers these days insist on it, no rating – no job. These are simple financial decisions the carriers make to lower costs, thereby gaining a bigger market share, and thereby being able to offer you a job in the first place. It’s basic economics.

It makes absolutely no difference what so ever what your opinion of pilots buying ratings is. It’ll keep on happening. There are carriers who insist on it, and there are guys prepared to do it. Get as emotional as you like, call them what you like (from the viewing deck at the airport as they fly past probably) – there’s no room for emotion in economics.

[Capt Claret]

Originally Posted by morno

Because those who do, are a bunch of back stabbing fkers who care only for themselves. No fking wonder people charge for endorsements.

Well fk you and the horse you rode in on!

Now, where were you when I had to decide whether to fork out $15k for my endorsement contribution, due company type change?

Did you offer to help me and my colleagues pay our mortgages, educate our kids (not in my case), shelter our wives & families? No! You were conspicuous by your absence. Yet you feel quite entitled to describe me as a back "stabbing fker" for supporting myself and my family.

Paying for endorsements sucks! My experience of pilots is we're all pretty good at talking the talk, but fking few can walk the walk, and I'll bet your one who can't!

So before you call any one else a backstabbing fker, take a public stand and lead by example!

[DUXNUTZ]

Mate, those MPL's you talk about..... You can't substitute experience for a whizz bang integrated to heck license! Even if it comes about with cadets et al Airlines are still going to value experience and learn to target this in recruitment goals.
I like many others have worked in the bush, flown planes that look like they would best be placed in a junkyard and whinged about how crap my current gig was. Am now flying turbine freight so progressing somewhat but still find myself over eager to attain it all before i'm 30. Bide your time and the fruit will appear on the tree my friend.

Its just like recruiting taxi drivers in Bangalore, experience wins at the end of the day, put the runs on the board and relax!

Oh and yeah if any virgins are reading this and wanna give me a call, go ahead!

[morno]

Clarrie, that's actually one thing I didn't think of, . They're slightly different circumstances there I guess, in that to keep the job you ALREADY held, you had to fork out the $$'s. Shame on your company then! Sorry Clarrie.

Was referring more to those pilots who fork out the cash for an endorsement so they can jump the queues into the airlines. Or, those who apply to an airline knowing full well they're up for the cash for an endorsement if they succeed in the interview.

And (to whoever it was above) because I don't work for Qantas does that make me stupid also?? Even though I have never even applied to Qantas?

I work in a good job. I get paid well. I enjoy my job immensely. But I never paid anything, for the endorsement which my company gave to me to be able to fly for them. THAT is what it should be like!

morno

[j3pipercub]

"You only have to look at the spellling and grammatical ability on this forum to assess the academic ability of most pilots."

“and I noticed that you failed to capitalise your "I"s. Guess you are just a pilot too. Do you really want to do the anal spelling thing? Of course you failed to answer the point, which is that the academic standard required of a pilot is very low.”

Guys that is just pss funny, Three L's and you were criticising his spelling, and I think I just spelled criticising incorrectly, and I just used 'and' after a comma, my grammar is also up the creek. There goes my C + T position with the kangaroo skygods hahaha, that is my entertainment for the day!

"Weigh it up, do I feel morally satisfied that I gave up my career in aviation industries because I refused to pay for my type rating OR do you feel satisfied that you succeeded in your chosen profession beacuse you did.

I’m not going to feel like i have created an in-justice to the boys and girls unwilling to accept the terms and conditions currently laid out by airlines requiring self sponsored endorsements , I m sorry for those who feel they are unable to financially commit to such a commitment"

Jetfume, you may feel morally satisfied, because you CAN afford to, it's got nothing to do with people being unable to financially commit, you make the poorer guys like people afraid to propose to their partner cos they're afraid of 'commitment'. Did it occur to you that some of us can't, simply can't afford it without rich friends / spouse / parents / defense payout. I know maybe I'll sell a kidney and get my widebody 737 endo.

j3

[j3pipercub]

Get out for a year? You're kidding aren't you? So you're leaving the industry so you can work to earn enough to buy yourself a type rating? Why should you have to leave flying to earn enough to afford to cut the guys throat next to you? If you allow them to do that, all employers will. Just a few corrections, you didn't HAVE to leave the industry, you CHOSE to so you could pay for a type rating. I'm not whinging about my financial situ, I'm just saying that I oculd not. And btw I think I have earnt it, I worked for three years without a social life to be able to afford the get the whole CPL/MCIR thing. Why should I have to leave the industry after I have worked hard so I can afford to pay for a type rating just so I can keep up with guys who do what you do? That doesn't make sense, if you do it, employers will expect EVERYONE to do it!

It is a sad indictment if you are advocating leaving the industry for a year so that you can progress in it!

It is a slippery slope. Look at the threads about the Virgin EBA atm. These guys deserve more, but the management attitdue seems to be, well you (some not all) seemed happy with paying 25K+ for an endo, therefore you should be happy with what we're giving you. Their mindset is only based on previous performance, and please do not mistake this for me defending VB management!!

Personally, I don't have enough hours for the airlines yet and in that respect I am glad (see below). However even if I did, it would not change my views. I will sit and wait for the majors to begin bonding pilots, or leave the country if I have to. A Bond makes a great deal more sense.

Wow! I'm impressed, you asked for all previous posts by me and found out that I am interested in Canada! Gee, that is FANTASTIC detective work Dick Tracy. Disheartened? Hell no, I love what I do, I'm flying twins as PIC (Although the BN2 is barely a twin) and having a ball, and I'm IN the industry.

I actually have aspirations to fly outside Australia, and Canada seemed like the right place to start, seeing as there are less conversion/citizenship issues compared to the US and Europe. Those figures were just rough, have more that 280 PIC, I just didnt think it was worth mentioning how much P1 152/172 time I had. You will note on that post, I listed Caravan command time (TURBINE) and BN2 command time (TWIN). Who's twisting words now???? Not heading to Canada just yet, if at all, was just a thought, so really sorry to disappoint you but;

Not Disheartened and
Not going anywhere

j3