x-credit glider time
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x-credit glider time
A friends son is mad-keen on aviation and determined to get into it. He's almost conned his dad into funding a course through an 'academy' in the Hunter Valley. His dad asked me about it. I told him in my opinion sending a 13yo, no matter how keen to an 'academy' was a WOFTAM. It seems some of the young fella's friends are already at this 'academy' -maybe the parents see it as some sort of baby-sitting service, although how the operators of this 'christian' facility are able to look themselves in the mirror is beyond me. The 'sitters' I met on visiting this facility some weeks ago were little more than babies themselves. I am disgusted that a presumably professional organisation would set themselves up in this manner with a (presumably intended) ongoing income-stream for 5 years!!!
I told him I thought the best route for a young fella of that age would be get him into some gliding for a couple of years, then if he's still keen, he's well on his way towards a PPL at age 16 and CPL at 18, with the added advantage of being exposed to experienced instructors throughout and well-developed stick & rudder skills, and the possibility of being in an enviable position to gain experience as a tug-pilot on achieving his PPL and appropriate endorsements. He (the young bloke) seems less than enamoured of the RAAF path, more set on GA as a route to the majors.
My question here then is: How much glider time can be cross-credited towards an ab initio PPL issue?
Thoughts, please.
I told him I thought the best route for a young fella of that age would be get him into some gliding for a couple of years, then if he's still keen, he's well on his way towards a PPL at age 16 and CPL at 18, with the added advantage of being exposed to experienced instructors throughout and well-developed stick & rudder skills, and the possibility of being in an enviable position to gain experience as a tug-pilot on achieving his PPL and appropriate endorsements. He (the young bloke) seems less than enamoured of the RAAF path, more set on GA as a route to the majors.
My question here then is: How much glider time can be cross-credited towards an ab initio PPL issue?
Thoughts, please.
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Kiwi,
I did about 5 hours gliding before starting on powered aircraft. When it came to filling in my powered logbook I asked my instructor the very same question. She called the gliding club I had been at. She was advised the gliding hours should count one for one.
I could be wrong though...
I did about 5 hours gliding before starting on powered aircraft. When it came to filling in my powered logbook I asked my instructor the very same question. She called the gliding club I had been at. She was advised the gliding hours should count one for one.
I could be wrong though...
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The book of words says:-
5.84 Private pilot (aeroplane) licence: aeronautical experience
required
(1) For the purposes of paragraph 5.77 (1) (f), a person’s aeronautical
experience must consist of at least 40 hours of flight time as a pilot,
being flight time that includes:
(a) at least 5 hours of general flight time as pilot in command; and
(b) at least 5 hours of cross-country flight time as pilot in command;
and
(c) at least 2 hours of instrument flight time.
(2) The 40 hours must be recognised flight time that was flown in a
registered aeroplane, recognised aeroplane, helicopter, gyroplane,
glider, power-assisted sailplane or group A ultralight.
required
(1) For the purposes of paragraph 5.77 (1) (f), a person’s aeronautical
experience must consist of at least 40 hours of flight time as a pilot,
being flight time that includes:
(a) at least 5 hours of general flight time as pilot in command; and
(b) at least 5 hours of cross-country flight time as pilot in command;
and
(c) at least 2 hours of instrument flight time.
(2) The 40 hours must be recognised flight time that was flown in a
registered aeroplane, recognised aeroplane, helicopter, gyroplane,
glider, power-assisted sailplane or group A ultralight.
Last edited by Miraz; 8th Mar 2007 at 21:37.
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Many thanks vh-ajm and Miraz. Extremely helpful and pretty much in line with my initial thoughts also, although I had expected there to be some form of powered-flight minimum for issue of a powered aircraft PPL, or a corresponding max on the hours able to be cross-credited.
I agree, and exactly what I 1st suggested to the lads' dad, especially given the lad is active in the sea cadets, so has at least some idea of a quasi-military environment. However...
Again thanks, I'll pass the information on!
Keh??? That to me is a very strange and misleading response! I am aware that there is generally a considerably lower hours-experience in a glider to 1st-solo than a powered aircraft. I would correspondingly expect an experienced glider pilot to 1st solo a powered aircraft in considerably less time than an ab initio powered trainee, much as I would any experienced powered pilot to probably solo a glider in less time than their trainee!
Whilst I have been flying powered aircraft professionally more years than I care to remember, I have only once flown a glider. It was particularly when the aircraft was launching (I was towed) and landing that I knew there was helluva lot more to learn about this gliding caper -let alone the upper-air work. Would I solo in 55 minutes? I doubt it very much; if I did, I would be very cautious of my own competence in the aircraft and definitely looking for more solid instruction.
As to your sugestion of an hour in the glider equating to only 5 minutes in a powered aircraft, I would have to question you on that also. I have flown (in powered aircraft) with experienced glider pilots and I assure you, their stick & rudder skills are far above average, let alone their forced-landing skills (field selection, wind judgement and height/flight-path required judgement). EVERY landing for them is a 'forced' landing.
Those reasons in part are why I look forward to my next opportunity to learn more from the gliding fraternity.
Further may I point out; should you ever suffer a BrokenConrod, there is a strong possibility you will then be flying a glider...
Regards
Originally Posted by rmcdonal
At that age I would suggest getting him into the Air Force Cadets. Cheapest flying anywhere.
Originally Posted by kiwiblue
He (the young bloke) seems less than enamoured of the RAAF path, more set on GA as a route to the majors.
Originally Posted by BrokenConrod
Having done both, I think 1 hr in a glider is the equivalent of no more than 5 min in a VH- registered powered aircraft.
Whilst I have been flying powered aircraft professionally more years than I care to remember, I have only once flown a glider. It was particularly when the aircraft was launching (I was towed) and landing that I knew there was helluva lot more to learn about this gliding caper -let alone the upper-air work. Would I solo in 55 minutes? I doubt it very much; if I did, I would be very cautious of my own competence in the aircraft and definitely looking for more solid instruction.
As to your sugestion of an hour in the glider equating to only 5 minutes in a powered aircraft, I would have to question you on that also. I have flown (in powered aircraft) with experienced glider pilots and I assure you, their stick & rudder skills are far above average, let alone their forced-landing skills (field selection, wind judgement and height/flight-path required judgement). EVERY landing for them is a 'forced' landing.
Those reasons in part are why I look forward to my next opportunity to learn more from the gliding fraternity.
Further may I point out; should you ever suffer a BrokenConrod, there is a strong possibility you will then be flying a glider...
Regards
Last edited by kiwiblue; 8th Mar 2007 at 06:40.
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Well, as an experienced power only pilot I solo'd in 55 min total time in a glider (Blanik). I have yet to see an experienced glider only pilot do the reverse
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KiwiBlue,
You asked for peoples thoughts, he gave you his. I tend to agree, dont bother about gliding, spend the money elsewhere especially if the young fellas ambitions lead him to the commercial sector, they are completely different types of flying.
JarJar
You asked for peoples thoughts, he gave you his. I tend to agree, dont bother about gliding, spend the money elsewhere especially if the young fellas ambitions lead him to the commercial sector, they are completely different types of flying.
JarJar
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hi KB
I strongly recomend your approach re the gliding.
I have a fair bit of experiance working with 15-19 year olds in both powered flying and gliding.
One of the main issues with adolesants in INTREST, which is likely to change over time, even for the most interested young person.
The fist recognisable step in flying training is the SOLO, this is achived at an earlier age in gliding and therefore keeps the intrest up, the following stages of recognition are also not far away inters of flights, time and money. For young people this recognition and intrest keeping (focus) is important.
Many of the skills learnt in Gliding (Hand -eye) and visual awarness of height and distance are 100% interchangable between powered and gliding. but the most important skills of judgment and disciplin in flying are undobtably higher in the glider pilot in early training, in fact much of the early training is completley about these thigs.
There is, as shown by an earlier poster, accreditation given in both the Regs and the training syllabus for a person who has recognised skills and demostrates them during training, going either way.
All the best for the young fella, and to echo someones comments earlier look at the cadet system for both knowledge and skills training.
richo
I strongly recomend your approach re the gliding.
I have a fair bit of experiance working with 15-19 year olds in both powered flying and gliding.
One of the main issues with adolesants in INTREST, which is likely to change over time, even for the most interested young person.
The fist recognisable step in flying training is the SOLO, this is achived at an earlier age in gliding and therefore keeps the intrest up, the following stages of recognition are also not far away inters of flights, time and money. For young people this recognition and intrest keeping (focus) is important.
Many of the skills learnt in Gliding (Hand -eye) and visual awarness of height and distance are 100% interchangable between powered and gliding. but the most important skills of judgment and disciplin in flying are undobtably higher in the glider pilot in early training, in fact much of the early training is completley about these thigs.
There is, as shown by an earlier poster, accreditation given in both the Regs and the training syllabus for a person who has recognised skills and demostrates them during training, going either way.
All the best for the young fella, and to echo someones comments earlier look at the cadet system for both knowledge and skills training.
richo
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Jarjar, As a glider pilot who went onto commercial flying I tend to disagree.
Some of the many benefits include.
-Stick & Rudder skills are well taught by the gliding fraternity. It will give the pilot a good insight into proper control use (esp those things you rest your feet on!).
-You actually do real stalls & spins and fly the aircraft in turns at slow speed (you can't afford to add 5kts for every one of your brothers/sisters etc).
-You would gain a good understanding of weather and knowledge of how to read what is happening.
-Airman ship & teamwork are also some of the valuable lessons taught along the way.
-Those teaching gliding tend to do it because they love it, not because they have a shiny CPL and instructor rating.
-Gliding Instructors (unlike many instructors) aren't chasing airline jobs each week.
-They also aren't chasing "Just one more flight" which equates to "a couple more $$ in my pocket".
-Relative costs are lower that equivalent powered hours.
On top of this the tailwheel time that would come if you were to go on to towing would be invaluable.
Back to the orig question. -I think with the PPL you may have to do all the Dual Sequences with exemptions on the Solo stuff (at least thats how it used to work in the RPPL & PPL days). You may require silver C & 300km or similar to achieve the exemption.
Some of the many benefits include.
-Stick & Rudder skills are well taught by the gliding fraternity. It will give the pilot a good insight into proper control use (esp those things you rest your feet on!).
-You actually do real stalls & spins and fly the aircraft in turns at slow speed (you can't afford to add 5kts for every one of your brothers/sisters etc).
-You would gain a good understanding of weather and knowledge of how to read what is happening.
-Airman ship & teamwork are also some of the valuable lessons taught along the way.
-Those teaching gliding tend to do it because they love it, not because they have a shiny CPL and instructor rating.
-Gliding Instructors (unlike many instructors) aren't chasing airline jobs each week.
-They also aren't chasing "Just one more flight" which equates to "a couple more $$ in my pocket".
-Relative costs are lower that equivalent powered hours.
On top of this the tailwheel time that would come if you were to go on to towing would be invaluable.
Back to the orig question. -I think with the PPL you may have to do all the Dual Sequences with exemptions on the Solo stuff (at least thats how it used to work in the RPPL & PPL days). You may require silver C & 300km or similar to achieve the exemption.
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I think with the PPL you may have to do all the Dual Sequences with exemptions on the Solo stuff (at least thats how it used to work in the RPPL & PPL days). You may require silver C & 300km or similar to achieve the exemption
kiwiblue - I have worked out why it is not possible for a glider pilot to convert to power that fast - it takes CASA several months to sort out the paperwork!
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Gliding and Air Training Cadets is IMHO they very best way to go.
I got ten hours knocked of my PPL back in the 80's because of my gliding experience. Seems it might be more these days.
But much much more than that is the quality training he'll get from some of the old senior's in the gliding movement who will teach him just for the love of the sport rather than a monetery or hour building reward. He will learn things about meteorolgy, aerodynamics, paddock landings, and composite stuctures to higher degree than your average GA pilot. With all due respect to the many above average GA pilots of course.
He will also develop a great feel for the way an aircraft fly's, and a true appreciation for the beauty of flight.
Regards
M
I got ten hours knocked of my PPL back in the 80's because of my gliding experience. Seems it might be more these days.
But much much more than that is the quality training he'll get from some of the old senior's in the gliding movement who will teach him just for the love of the sport rather than a monetery or hour building reward. He will learn things about meteorolgy, aerodynamics, paddock landings, and composite stuctures to higher degree than your average GA pilot. With all due respect to the many above average GA pilots of course.
He will also develop a great feel for the way an aircraft fly's, and a true appreciation for the beauty of flight.
Regards
M
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[B]Broken Conrod[B]
Just goes to show, your 55 minutes training prior to solo in a glider was insuficient, as someone else pointed out. Maybe there was a reason they kept your training so short.
Did they not mention you can't actually do a go around by just closing the airbrakes.
M
Just goes to show, your 55 minutes training prior to solo in a glider was insuficient, as someone else pointed out. Maybe there was a reason they kept your training so short.
Did they not mention you can't actually do a go around by just closing the airbrakes.
M
I'm with the FracturedRoddy on this:
Gliding = Sailing = Electric Cars = Boring!
So tell us YoungMichael, as an experienced glider pilot, how long did it take you to solo a powered aircraft?
FTDK
Gliding = Sailing = Electric Cars = Boring!
So tell us YoungMichael, as an experienced glider pilot, how long did it take you to solo a powered aircraft?
FTDK
somehow convince themselves that they are not inferior to the powered variety of pilot.
Maybe that's why some in fact didn't make the field, if only they knew to put the speed brakes away Kiwiblue, I personally can't speak highly enough of getting a bit of gliding experience under your belt before hopping into powered flying and scrambler's post is pretty well on the mark. The experience the young bloke would gain would be invaluable, both in terms of flying and all the other stuff that goes along with the club activities such as teamwork etc. It also tends to have a lot more events / tournaments than your average flying school not to mention the different achievements to strive for (height gain, distance etc) which tend to keep you motivated. As for how many hours can count, I had about 80 or so gliding hours before my power flying training and when I asked my instructor I was told that unfortunately none of the hours could count (which of course I believed). I was young and naive though so it would certainly be worth checking out as it could potentially save quite a bit of cash.
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Bit long ago to remember exactly (and i don't have log books on hand) but it was under ten hours.
I wasn't a particularly experienced glider pilot at the time I started my powered training, and I only ever accumulated 300 hrs in sailplanes.
I shouldn't imagine that gliding would appeal to everyone, none the less the skills gained are very worth while.
Sounds like you've never been in a 18' skiff with a good breeze if you reckon sailing's boring.
M
I wasn't a particularly experienced glider pilot at the time I started my powered training, and I only ever accumulated 300 hrs in sailplanes.
I shouldn't imagine that gliding would appeal to everyone, none the less the skills gained are very worth while.
Sounds like you've never been in a 18' skiff with a good breeze if you reckon sailing's boring.
M
BC
Fair enough and believe me I do know where you are coming from. However I do believe gliding to be a great way for young kids to get involved in aviation if they can cope with a few of the personalities that gliding clubs seem to attract
Personally, I was gliding solo before I could legally drive a car and was faced with my first 'outlanding' not long after solo (I still owe that farmer a beer for lost crop revenue!) and the skills I learnt over that year or two certainly helped my transition to power flying so maybe that's why I'm so pro gliding, if nothing else though it makes your forced landings that bit better
Fair enough and believe me I do know where you are coming from. However I do believe gliding to be a great way for young kids to get involved in aviation if they can cope with a few of the personalities that gliding clubs seem to attract
Personally, I was gliding solo before I could legally drive a car and was faced with my first 'outlanding' not long after solo (I still owe that farmer a beer for lost crop revenue!) and the skills I learnt over that year or two certainly helped my transition to power flying so maybe that's why I'm so pro gliding, if nothing else though it makes your forced landings that bit better
14 000hrs, mostly transport Jet,
1200 Parachute Descents,
Advanced level competition Aerobatics,
Silver "C" level glider pilot.
The glider flying I've done has been some of the most satisfying, beautiful, and at times down-right frightening aviation I've been involved with.
BC, you've flown around the patch and landed. Put yourself in the Find-a-thermal-NOW-or-find-a-paddock situation, 100s of Ks from home and it's a whole different ball game.
1200 Parachute Descents,
Advanced level competition Aerobatics,
Silver "C" level glider pilot.
The glider flying I've done has been some of the most satisfying, beautiful, and at times down-right frightening aviation I've been involved with.
BC, you've flown around the patch and landed. Put yourself in the Find-a-thermal-NOW-or-find-a-paddock situation, 100s of Ks from home and it's a whole different ball game.
BC,
Not meaning to start a D1(K swinging contest, just pointing out that I have tried a fair variety of Aviation activities, and I feel your criticism of gliding is a little unfair.
Being a sport, glider pilots by-and-large aren't at a professional level of flying knowledge(though I'd stack them up against many Aero-club PPLs!!), but as an activity gliding is up there as one of the most enjoyable and challenging.
As to the parachuting, the majority of my exits were from Nomads, so you can see why I was happy to leave!!
Not meaning to start a D1(K swinging contest, just pointing out that I have tried a fair variety of Aviation activities, and I feel your criticism of gliding is a little unfair.
Being a sport, glider pilots by-and-large aren't at a professional level of flying knowledge(though I'd stack them up against many Aero-club PPLs!!), but as an activity gliding is up there as one of the most enjoyable and challenging.
As to the parachuting, the majority of my exits were from Nomads, so you can see why I was happy to leave!!