Top rudder in turns
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Top rudder in turns
Recently I went for a check on a different aircraft and we went out for a quick bit of general handling before some circuits.
During the steep turns the instructor said to me that instead of pulling harder and tightening the turn, I could just dab in a bit of top rudder. I must admit I was never taught this and it seemed a curious method to use and most especially teach. He had recently completed his instructor rating at a school which I thought had a good reputation. I had been schooled that if the turn was going pear shaped and I had to pull harder it was better to ease off the bank and try again.
I took his method on board and stored it into the "I'll have to check that" file and promptly forgot about it. Last night I was going through old AF magazines and found an article by JD on rudders in which he says this method is "rubbish".
Thoughts? Comments? Is this another case of a poorly taught instructor?
During the steep turns the instructor said to me that instead of pulling harder and tightening the turn, I could just dab in a bit of top rudder. I must admit I was never taught this and it seemed a curious method to use and most especially teach. He had recently completed his instructor rating at a school which I thought had a good reputation. I had been schooled that if the turn was going pear shaped and I had to pull harder it was better to ease off the bank and try again.
I took his method on board and stored it into the "I'll have to check that" file and promptly forgot about it. Last night I was going through old AF magazines and found an article by JD on rudders in which he says this method is "rubbish".
Thoughts? Comments? Is this another case of a poorly taught instructor?
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is this in a cessna or piper? is there a linked rudder/aileron? are you in balance before adding top rudder? do you use rudder in the turn as a matter of course?
i do a lot of descending from 10000ft in a 206, and i've found the easiest way to get 1200fpm going is 22/22, 130kts, 45deg turn, with full top rudder (or at least get the ball right out) - slips out of the sky beautifully. i can't see how increasing top rudder above the balance ball is going to help you in a steep straight and level turn.
i do a lot of descending from 10000ft in a 206, and i've found the easiest way to get 1200fpm going is 22/22, 130kts, 45deg turn, with full top rudder (or at least get the ball right out) - slips out of the sky beautifully. i can't see how increasing top rudder above the balance ball is going to help you in a steep straight and level turn.
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Sounds like a poorly taught instructor to me. In a steep turn use back pressure to maintain your alt, using top rudder will simply put you out of balance.
Also as you increase BP just check your angle of bank. The aircraft may tend to roll in further and you'll loose more height which will make you apply more back pressure and the whole thing turns into a spiral descent if left unchecked!
I hope this instructor doesn't teach this same "technique" for Max Rate turns or someones gonna get themselves into a nasty spin and die one day.
Also as you increase BP just check your angle of bank. The aircraft may tend to roll in further and you'll loose more height which will make you apply more back pressure and the whole thing turns into a spiral descent if left unchecked!
I hope this instructor doesn't teach this same "technique" for Max Rate turns or someones gonna get themselves into a nasty spin and die one day.
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You can answer your own question by reviewing the reasons for certain control inputs such as in a steep turn an increase in back pressure is required to increase the AoA due to the loss of your vertical component of lift which will then increase induced drag requiring an increase in thrust etc etc.
Maybe explain basic aerodynamics to your instructor sounds like he may need it.
Maybe explain basic aerodynamics to your instructor sounds like he may need it.
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Quite a strange idea. In a balanced steep turn, the ball should remain in the centre to balance the turn. Under check circumstances, an unbalanced turn would require a repeat, and if continued lack of use of the rudder was shown, a fail would occur. Use of top rudder in a Tiger or Chipmunk was the classic way to spin the aircraft out of a steep turn.
It seems to me that use of the rudder is not well taught these days, especially endorsing people on reasonably high powered turbo props which require rudder inputs as the power levers are moved, especially on rotate and with adjustments from climb/cruise/descent.
It seems to me that use of the rudder is not well taught these days, especially endorsing people on reasonably high powered turbo props which require rudder inputs as the power levers are moved, especially on rotate and with adjustments from climb/cruise/descent.
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Originally Posted by Dog One;3035499[I
]"It seems to me that use of the rudder is not well taught these days, especially endorsing people on reasonably high powered turbo props which require rudder inputs as the power levers are moved, especially on rotate and with adjustments from climb/cruise/descent"[/I]
The only thing I have flown that required more judicious use of rudder was a sail plane trainer that you had to lead with rudder into a turn.
R
JSMitty01
Sounds to me like a "good idea" invented by the new instructor.
You would be doing him and his future students a big favour by tactfully letting him know that his technique is flawed. If you feel that you don't have the experience or the "right" do this yourself have a quite chat to his supervising instructor.
Sir.Pratt
I'm highjacking the thread a bit here but I feel compelled to comment on your technique. Full rudder 130 knots? What is Va? At the weight you are at Va will be a lot less than 130 knots I suspect. The technique I was taught gave very much in excess of 1200fpm, with no crazy control inputs and no structural or engine issues.
Sounds to me like a "good idea" invented by the new instructor.
You would be doing him and his future students a big favour by tactfully letting him know that his technique is flawed. If you feel that you don't have the experience or the "right" do this yourself have a quite chat to his supervising instructor.
Sir.Pratt
I'm highjacking the thread a bit here but I feel compelled to comment on your technique. Full rudder 130 knots? What is Va? At the weight you are at Va will be a lot less than 130 knots I suspect. The technique I was taught gave very much in excess of 1200fpm, with no crazy control inputs and no structural or engine issues.
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I am wondering if Sir Pratt is conducting parachute jumping operations?
There seems to be a culture amoungst jump pilots that have developed various methods of steep turning in the belief that it is the best method of descent. (or perhaps that it is more fun????).
Maybe they should grab their copy of the APF jump manual and re-read page 20 (on descending).
I am certain that these procedures are written for a reason, and by groups with alot more experience than those of us just trying to build hours.
http://www.apf.asn.au/Documents/Publ...pilot_2005.pdf
There seems to be a culture amoungst jump pilots that have developed various methods of steep turning in the belief that it is the best method of descent. (or perhaps that it is more fun????).
Maybe they should grab their copy of the APF jump manual and re-read page 20 (on descending).
I am certain that these procedures are written for a reason, and by groups with alot more experience than those of us just trying to build hours.
http://www.apf.asn.au/Documents/Publ...pilot_2005.pdf
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if you need top rudder then you are not correctly holding off bank with opp aileron.
One thing when doing my instructor rating when conducting the steep turns lesson we were taught to make sure student was not using top rudder as you are flying out of balance.
if you are not stabilised in the turn, reduce angle of bank, re stabilise and rolll back to 45/60 whatever the required AOB
The instructor prob didnt know any better, maybe you should point it out to him, or talk to the CFI, as its not a good thing if this instructor keeps going like this as he will instruct students who go onto being instructors teaching the same thing!
4S
One thing when doing my instructor rating when conducting the steep turns lesson we were taught to make sure student was not using top rudder as you are flying out of balance.
if you are not stabilised in the turn, reduce angle of bank, re stabilise and rolll back to 45/60 whatever the required AOB
The instructor prob didnt know any better, maybe you should point it out to him, or talk to the CFI, as its not a good thing if this instructor keeps going like this as he will instruct students who go onto being instructors teaching the same thing!
4S
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if you need top rudder then you are not correctly holding off bank with opp aileron. One thing when doing my instructor rating when conducting the steep turns lesson we were taught to make sure student was not using top rudder as you are flying out of balance.
if you are not stabilised in the turn, reduce angle of bank, re stabilise and rolll back to 45/60 whatever the required AOB
The instructor prob didnt know any better, maybe you should point it out to him, or talk to the CFI, as its not a good thing if this instructor keeps going like this as he will instruct students who go onto being instructors teaching the same thing! 4S
if you are not stabilised in the turn, reduce angle of bank, re stabilise and rolll back to 45/60 whatever the required AOB
The instructor prob didnt know any better, maybe you should point it out to him, or talk to the CFI, as its not a good thing if this instructor keeps going like this as he will instruct students who go onto being instructors teaching the same thing! 4S
Is there a complete breakdown of supervision and checking? My CFI would have quickly kicked this crap out of me if I had come out with it as a Junior Instructor!
R
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I am wondering if Sir Pratt is conducting parachute jumping operations?
There seems to be a culture amoungst jump pilots that have developed various methods of steep turning in the belief that it is the best method of descent. (or perhaps that it is more fun????).
Maybe they should grab their copy of the APF jump manual and re-read page 20 (on descending).
I am certain that these procedures are written for a reason, and by groups with alot more experience than those of us just trying to build hours.
http://www.apf.asn.au/Documents/Publ...pilot_2005.pdf
There seems to be a culture amoungst jump pilots that have developed various methods of steep turning in the belief that it is the best method of descent. (or perhaps that it is more fun????).
Maybe they should grab their copy of the APF jump manual and re-read page 20 (on descending).
I am certain that these procedures are written for a reason, and by groups with alot more experience than those of us just trying to build hours.
http://www.apf.asn.au/Documents/Publ...pilot_2005.pdf
as an LAME, i am well aware of the issues regarding thermal shock. it keeps me in employment! at 22/22 and 130kts, cowls closed, thermal shock is not an issue. 17" or less will cause serious damage, especially on a cold day. if it's cold, i'll descend @ 24/24, still at 130kts. the question here was about top rudder - top rudder in a tight descending turn will cause an increase in ROD, it won't make any difference to the rate of cooling. 17"/130kts and a 500fpm ROD will cause as much damage as 17"/130kts/1200fpm. i am aware of the aerodymanic issues and spiral dive danges with top rudder in the descending tight turn, i fly the aircraft all the way - one guy i know trims it right out of balance, but i'm not too comfortable with that.
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I didn't mention the thermal shock issue
Read the complete page (my bolding)
I asked the question why some jump pilots seem to insist on spiral descents
"A spiral is not recommended because the
airframe will be subjected to unnecessary
loads particularly if unexpected turbulence is
encountered. Care must be taken to maintain
balanced flight to avoid problems with fuel
cross flow during descent when your fuel load
is low. At any sign of rough running
immediately level the wings and check that
the plane is in balanced flight. [ball in the
middle] then carry out the appropriate
emergency procedures applicable to the
situation."
Read the complete page (my bolding)
I asked the question why some jump pilots seem to insist on spiral descents
"A spiral is not recommended because the
airframe will be subjected to unnecessary
loads particularly if unexpected turbulence is
encountered. Care must be taken to maintain
balanced flight to avoid problems with fuel
cross flow during descent when your fuel load
is low. At any sign of rough running
immediately level the wings and check that
the plane is in balanced flight. [ball in the
middle] then carry out the appropriate
emergency procedures applicable to the
situation."
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That's because we're all going to be airline jet pilots..... We won't need to use the rudders so why bother??
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The instructor prob didnt know any better, maybe you should point it out to him, or talk to the CFI, as its not a good thing if this instructor keeps going like this as he will instruct students who go onto being instructors teaching the same thing
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I didn't mention the thermal shock issue
Read the complete page (my bolding)
I asked the question why some jump pilots seem to insist on spiral descents
"A spiral is not recommended because the
airframe will be subjected to unnecessary
loads particularly if unexpected turbulence is
encountered. Care must be taken to maintain
balanced flight to avoid problems with fuel
cross flow during descent when your fuel load
is low. At any sign of rough running
immediately level the wings and check that
the plane is in balanced flight. [ball in the
middle] then carry out the appropriate
emergency procedures applicable to the
situation."
Read the complete page (my bolding)
I asked the question why some jump pilots seem to insist on spiral descents
"A spiral is not recommended because the
airframe will be subjected to unnecessary
loads particularly if unexpected turbulence is
encountered. Care must be taken to maintain
balanced flight to avoid problems with fuel
cross flow during descent when your fuel load
is low. At any sign of rough running
immediately level the wings and check that
the plane is in balanced flight. [ball in the
middle] then carry out the appropriate
emergency procedures applicable to the
situation."
there's no fuel cross-over on the 206, so that's not an issue. sufficient gas and a knowledge of how the fuel system works prevents fuel starvation.
unexpected turbulence? as long as i'm 10-15kts below vmo it would have to be some pretty amazing turbulence to make a difference - and turbulence is not generally an issue where my base is, as long as i stay away from the occasional cloud.
3 or 4 laps in each direction helps with PA.
what 'unneccesary loads?' a controlled slip is approved in the POH, as long as no flap is down.
how many descents have you done from 10000' overhead the airfeild, having to stay within a 5 mile radius?
merry christmas
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Sir Pratt
Side slipping spiral dives really don't save you time and only help to cause more stress on the airframe. As your a lame I'm sure you'll understand what the vertical fin is desinged to do i.e. stop the aircraft for slipping so all the time the are in a full rudder side slip and high speed (for a 206 130kts is high speed) you are putting alot of force on the entire tail surface and causing a twisting of the airframe. Then the increased risk of having the engine stop due to lack of fuel getting in the fuel line with a slip on not worth the risk. They guy who wrote the jump pilots guide does know what he is talking about he's only been doing it for 30 years!
Go out and try a decent without spiral diving and without side slipping with 10' of flap out and then try it your way. If it saves you more than a minute I'll be stunned.
And yes i've flown jumpers 300 hours in 206's 300 in 182's and lots more in bigger jump planes. Great fun and if there was any money in it i'd probably still be doing it!
OCTA
Side slipping spiral dives really don't save you time and only help to cause more stress on the airframe. As your a lame I'm sure you'll understand what the vertical fin is desinged to do i.e. stop the aircraft for slipping so all the time the are in a full rudder side slip and high speed (for a 206 130kts is high speed) you are putting alot of force on the entire tail surface and causing a twisting of the airframe. Then the increased risk of having the engine stop due to lack of fuel getting in the fuel line with a slip on not worth the risk. They guy who wrote the jump pilots guide does know what he is talking about he's only been doing it for 30 years!
Go out and try a decent without spiral diving and without side slipping with 10' of flap out and then try it your way. If it saves you more than a minute I'll be stunned.
And yes i've flown jumpers 300 hours in 206's 300 in 182's and lots more in bigger jump planes. Great fun and if there was any money in it i'd probably still be doing it!
OCTA