No more "buy a job" at jetstar???
Speeeedy wrote:
It's not about getting the best and never has been. This may come as a surprise to some, but it has always been about just getting pilots of a satisfactory standard. To seek the best is just too expensive - the Air Forces of the world can do it but only because it is their taxpayers that are paying for it.
The endorsement "barrier" is like the "blondes only" example quoted by Speeeedy - it reduces the size of the applicant pool. So instead of say, 500 applicants that are of the required standard, the pool may be reduced to 250 that are of the required standard.
The airlines would have a good feel for how big the pool is (after allowing for the endorsement barrier) and will raise or lower that and other barriers accordingly.
The pilots may well be adequate, but statistically speaking they are not the BEST that they could get.
We know Jetstar management don't care, but I wonder how their customers feel about that?
We know Jetstar management don't care, but I wonder how their customers feel about that?
The endorsement "barrier" is like the "blondes only" example quoted by Speeeedy - it reduces the size of the applicant pool. So instead of say, 500 applicants that are of the required standard, the pool may be reduced to 250 that are of the required standard.
The airlines would have a good feel for how big the pool is (after allowing for the endorsement barrier) and will raise or lower that and other barriers accordingly.
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Brisbane Australia
Posts: 525
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sorry aircraft, but it is about getting the best. Any business, whether it be an airline or otherwise always wants to employ the best because they know in the long term that it will save the company money, and in the case of an airline, perhaps something a little more sinister.
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Australia
Posts: 182
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Aircraft wrote:
So he agrees with the "blonde only" example, this is what I wrote:
So at the very least aircraft agrees that it is a statisical certainty that the result will be lower quality - and he is fine with that!
Again I say - Ask the customers - particularly the business customers with no choice but to fly J* when they wanted to fly Qantas (and there are thousands of those).
The endorsement "barrier" is like the "blondes only" example quoted by Speeeedy - it reduces the size of the applicant pool. So instead of say, 500 applicants that are of the required standard, the pool may be reduced to 250 that are of the required standard.
On the flip side, if you just use an arbitrary limitation, say, only blondes need apply, then you limit your numbers by in excess of 50%, the remaining pool will be thinned with no slant to Quality and therefore the final numbers employed, will most certainly be of a lower quality on average – that is a statistical certainty.
Again I say - Ask the customers - particularly the business customers with no choice but to fly J* when they wanted to fly Qantas (and there are thousands of those).
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: oz
Posts: 622
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Chimbu, to answer a previous post, their is no sign of Jet* dropping the endorsement cost.
At the risk of sounding pedantic, Jet* actually don't charge you for anything, they just hand you an employment contract that states you need an A320 endorsement.
38k, 35k, actually 33.5k with Alteon and 31k with ANZ. Which will be reduced by 14 or 15k come tax time.
Funny how everyone gets stuck into Vb and Jet* for " charging for endorsements " when the world leaders in shafting employees go unscathed.
NJS set a precedent ( possibly 1st in the world ) by charging pilots ( some with 14 years service ), yes charging, 15k for an equipment change that was going to keep 300 odd people ( only 70 of which where pilots ) in jobs.
After promising that would be the last shafting for 7 years, 18 months after getting the 717 they are holding their hands out again, now that is 5hit
QF F/Os and S/Os queing in their droves ?? only if they want to fork out 33.5k for a 320 endo, and if they have a 330 endo chances are it would not be worthwile ( financially ) going to Jet*, also they cant just come to Jet* take a command and then go back to QF.
I'm guessing alot of S/Os would'nt have the command requirements.
Their is no shortage of good, experienced pilots knocking on the door at Jet*, they know the 33.5k ( 20 after tax refund ) will not take long to recover after getting a command in 2 years.
For those of us unable to join the elite, through one reason or another, and dont want to live OS, Jet* is the next best option, sorry, but thems the facts.
At the risk of sounding pedantic, Jet* actually don't charge you for anything, they just hand you an employment contract that states you need an A320 endorsement.
38k, 35k, actually 33.5k with Alteon and 31k with ANZ. Which will be reduced by 14 or 15k come tax time.
Funny how everyone gets stuck into Vb and Jet* for " charging for endorsements " when the world leaders in shafting employees go unscathed.
NJS set a precedent ( possibly 1st in the world ) by charging pilots ( some with 14 years service ), yes charging, 15k for an equipment change that was going to keep 300 odd people ( only 70 of which where pilots ) in jobs.
After promising that would be the last shafting for 7 years, 18 months after getting the 717 they are holding their hands out again, now that is 5hit
QF F/Os and S/Os queing in their droves ?? only if they want to fork out 33.5k for a 320 endo, and if they have a 330 endo chances are it would not be worthwile ( financially ) going to Jet*, also they cant just come to Jet* take a command and then go back to QF.
I'm guessing alot of S/Os would'nt have the command requirements.
Their is no shortage of good, experienced pilots knocking on the door at Jet*, they know the 33.5k ( 20 after tax refund ) will not take long to recover after getting a command in 2 years.
For those of us unable to join the elite, through one reason or another, and dont want to live OS, Jet* is the next best option, sorry, but thems the facts.
Join Date: May 2005
Location: oz (30% of the time)
Age: 62
Posts: 277
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Their (There) is no shortage of good, experienced pilots knocking on the door at Jet*, they know the 33.5k ( 20 after tax refund ) will not take long to recover after getting a command in 2 years.
How do you figure you will get a command in two (2) years by joining JetStar now?
Cunninglinguist I think it has been discussed previously in these forums that the endorsement cost is NOT tax deductible. Now I am no accountant, but from memory the criteria that the ATO uses is whether or not the applicant was employed by the company at the time they shelled out for the endorsement.
If employed at the time (as in the case of the NJS blokes) then it IS deductible, if prior to commencement (as in the case of VB and Jetstar) then it is NOT deductible. Obviously if you are considering this you should request a ruling from the ATO.
If employed at the time (as in the case of the NJS blokes) then it IS deductible, if prior to commencement (as in the case of VB and Jetstar) then it is NOT deductible. Obviously if you are considering this you should request a ruling from the ATO.
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: oz
Posts: 622
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Jack, you dont recover 13.5 from the taxman ( other than in your tax return ) you recover the 20k remaining outlay, in most cases, by earning a good income over the next umpteen years. I have been told by management, and if you do the numbers with the amount of a/c coming in the next 2 years, that 2 years or less is a reasonable time frame to command. I'm not sure if my 8000 hrs jet command and training experience has any bearing on that.
Chimbu, I signed an EBA 2 weeks prior to commencing Alteon endo, was already employed by Jet* ( conditionally ) at commencement of course.
You say VB and Jet* endo's not tax deductible and yet hundreds of guys have gotten tax returns already.
The 2 cases that were taken to court by the
tax department did'nt get past the steps of the court, AFAP info, not mine.
...and ur right, u r not an accountant.
Nothing more to say on this matter, apart from sick to the teeth of defending my decision to go to Jet*, nobody knows me, my circumstances or most other peoples for that matter.
These threads are full of misinformation by smartalecs who would'nt have a clue what they are talking about, and how could they unless they worked for the company in question?
Ciao
Chimbu, I signed an EBA 2 weeks prior to commencing Alteon endo, was already employed by Jet* ( conditionally ) at commencement of course.
You say VB and Jet* endo's not tax deductible and yet hundreds of guys have gotten tax returns already.
The 2 cases that were taken to court by the
tax department did'nt get past the steps of the court, AFAP info, not mine....and ur right, u r not an accountant.
Nothing more to say on this matter, apart from sick to the teeth of defending my decision to go to Jet*, nobody knows me, my circumstances or most other peoples for that matter.
These threads are full of misinformation by smartalecs who would'nt have a
clue what they are talking about, and how could they unless they worked for the company in question?Ciao
Join Date: May 2005
Location: oz (30% of the time)
Age: 62
Posts: 277
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
cunninglinguist
No one has to defend their decision to join any airline. However, you must be prepared to support statements made by you, on this forum.
The tax recovery is a furphy, unless you are already employed by the Company and are claiming it to further your career prospects. I have approached the ATO and they have confirmed the same. That's why I questioned your statement - in case things had changed. Salary sacrifice for "umpteen years" does not instill confidence in me for long term, good employer/employee relations.
I would respectfully suggest your statement
would have had a huge bearing on your two years to Command. Please don't imply this,two years to command, would apply to most applicants joining Jetstar without vast experience.
The aviation circle in Oz is not as big as you may imagine and there is always someone who knows someone else, somewhere else.
does not always ring true.
The tax recovery is a furphy, unless you are already employed by the Company and are claiming it to further your career prospects. I have approached the ATO and they have confirmed the same. That's why I questioned your statement - in case things had changed. Salary sacrifice for "umpteen years" does not instill confidence in me for long term, good employer/employee relations.
I would respectfully suggest your statement
I'm not sure if my 8000 hrs jet command and training experience has any bearing on that.
The aviation circle in Oz is not as big as you may imagine and there is always someone who knows someone else, somewhere else.
how could they unless they worked for the company in question?
Join Date: May 2000
Location: vic
Age: 23
Posts: 297
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
as with most work related expenses provided you are employed in a field and you self educate then expenses relating directly to your chosen field can be taken from your taxable income.
In cunning's case, all he/she needs to do is be employed in the field to write it off as a legitimate expense. ie he/she while working for NJS prior to being employed by Jetstar pays Alteon for the endorsement costs then it is a legitimate expense even though he/she does not work with the intended company, yet.
There is enough information out there for anyone to research and form their own opinion, any accountant can access this, the AFAP have made information accessable to the cases that they have contested. If you are still not sure, get a private ruling from the tax department. In any case:
Be employed in the field and expenses relating to self education in that chosen field then it is OK. Fortunately an endorsement is self education.
my 50c worth
In cunning's case, all he/she needs to do is be employed in the field to write it off as a legitimate expense. ie he/she while working for NJS prior to being employed by Jetstar pays Alteon for the endorsement costs then it is a legitimate expense even though he/she does not work with the intended company, yet.
There is enough information out there for anyone to research and form their own opinion, any accountant can access this, the AFAP have made information accessable to the cases that they have contested. If you are still not sure, get a private ruling from the tax department. In any case:
Be employed in the field and expenses relating to self education in that chosen field then it is OK. Fortunately an endorsement is self education.
my 50c worth
Join Date: May 2005
Location: oz (30% of the time)
Age: 62
Posts: 277
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
while working for NJS prior to being employed by Jetstar pays Alteon for the endorsement costs then it is a legitimate expense even though he/she does not work with the intended company, yet.
Join Date: May 2000
Location: vic
Age: 23
Posts: 297
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
fortuntately the ATO don't differentiate between endorsement types. Sounds silly but it is all self education provided it 'value adds' to your cadre of skills. If I was in IT for example and worked on IBM products in my current employment and I decided to go a and 'self educate' and pay (like that would ever happen in any other industry!) for an apple course then that would be a legitimate expense because I was expanding my skill base even though in my current position I was not required to use apple products.
Another example is doing a post grad uni course, you might be doing an MBA but you are not currently administering a business, you might be the copy boy but it is your chosen field and you are working in the industry.
The ATO obviously does not like large deductions such as the 30k for endorsements but they have avoided court cases debating it because they know they are f@cked when it comes to self education.
Another example is doing a post grad uni course, you might be doing an MBA but you are not currently administering a business, you might be the copy boy but it is your chosen field and you are working in the industry.
The ATO obviously does not like large deductions such as the 30k for endorsements but they have avoided court cases debating it because they know they are f@cked when it comes to self education.
Join Date: May 2001
Location: NZ
Posts: 656
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sorry chaps, just to clarify, the rumour is that J* have kicked their buy your own endorsement policy in to touch. Is that now saying that they will employ you and train you at no cost to the employee or is it just a interpretation of the the "we don't charge you anything.... we offer you a job based on you having a type rating on Day 1"
How say you savages?
S2K
How say you savages?
S2K
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: out there
Posts: 102
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
quote:
I would rather work for a company, regional or otherwise, knowing that i got the job because i made the grade, not cause i payed for it!! :quote
qutoe: The Hill, this is a particularly dimwitted observation. Buying the endorsement only gets you endorsed - you still have to make the grade. :quote
Aircraft, I think you’re missing my point about "making the grade"
By choosing to "pay for your rating" you are not competing with ALL the applicants, just the ones who will pay. Hence, by reducing the pool, as you say, it is automatically less competitive.
I believe "making the grade" means getting a "yes" letter when competing with the entire pool of applicants, not just the ones who will pay.
I would rather work for a company, regional or otherwise, knowing that i got the job because i made the grade, not cause i payed for it!! :quote
qutoe: The Hill, this is a particularly dimwitted observation. Buying the endorsement only gets you endorsed - you still have to make the grade. :quote
Aircraft, I think you’re missing my point about "making the grade"
By choosing to "pay for your rating" you are not competing with ALL the applicants, just the ones who will pay. Hence, by reducing the pool, as you say, it is automatically less competitive.
I believe "making the grade" means getting a "yes" letter when competing with the entire pool of applicants, not just the ones who will pay.
Last edited by The Hill; 13th Dec 2006 at 06:33.
Isn't making the grade relative to a predetermined selection criteria not relative to the ability or otherwise of the pool of people applying.
Ergo, if ten people are interviewed and sim checked and all "pass" or make the grade then as positions become available they will ALL be offered work. Probably in the order of best pass to worst pass.
If the same ten all "fail" their sim check then none will be employed. They are not going to employ the top two of the ten that failed just because they are the best of the worst.
Anyway you are already in a small pool (cesspit?). Those that could afford to fund a CPL/ATPL. Those that could pass the exams.
Life discriminates. Get over it.
Ergo, if ten people are interviewed and sim checked and all "pass" or make the grade then as positions become available they will ALL be offered work. Probably in the order of best pass to worst pass.
If the same ten all "fail" their sim check then none will be employed. They are not going to employ the top two of the ten that failed just because they are the best of the worst.
Anyway you are already in a small pool (cesspit?). Those that could afford to fund a CPL/ATPL. Those that could pass the exams.
Life discriminates. Get over it.
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Australia
Posts: 51
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It frustrates me having to respond to trolls who maliciously change the entire direction of the dicussion so far. There was a topic mentioned way back on page 1 of this thread which has been completely lost, and I'm mad as hell about it! It's whippets:-
Now come on, people! Try to stay ON MESSAGE!!
Last edited by transonic dragon; 18th Dec 2006 at 05:33. Reason: d
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: A grass castle in Victoria.
Posts: 125
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Bonding and now the paying for an endorsement originally came about mainly because pilots would take a "free" endorsement then "move on" without a realistic "return of service".
J* and Virgin used to allow salary sacrifice payment for the endorsement until the inevitable happened:- someone failed the checkride and refused to pay up. Another pilot got the stamp in the log book and just disappeared!
Again we pilots have done it to ourselves .............. what ever happened to Integrity? (No, it's not new band)
J* and Virgin used to allow salary sacrifice payment for the endorsement until the inevitable happened:- someone failed the checkride and refused to pay up. Another pilot got the stamp in the log book and just disappeared!
Again we pilots have done it to ourselves .............. what ever happened to Integrity? (No, it's not new band)
Last edited by James4th; 18th Dec 2006 at 12:27. Reason: typo
