Climbing the greasy pole
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Climbing the greasy pole
Hi Everyone - maybe a little time for me to vent. Apologies if I sound like 'just another' but I don't post that often and would like to hear back from some people.
Am 22, have 1200 hours... ME-CIR, NVFR (M/E), ATPL subjects... Have flown every single engine cessna and piper you could expect to find up north. Only have about 30 hours multi engine.
I am finding it very difficult to find a break in the twin engine industry and feel like no-body wants to know me, after all the hard work and effort of flying up north. And even while I'm still working my boss is breathing down our throats to: "Just be a little bit more proactive about your flying and then move on". (When we get paid peanuts?)
I understand alot of guys have been through exactly this. But just for the sake of my sanity, I'd love to hear from some guys who are flying the red-tails and shiney red jets who have been here and done it, and let me know how you perservered through it (ie, living on the bones of your arse, and trying to stop the sweat dripping into your eyes as you fly your C210 through the wet season and it stings like buggery). Or even if someone could shed some light on where I can find some twin work, because all I feel like doing at the moment is moving home and being with friends/family that I miss so badly!
2p!ssed
Am 22, have 1200 hours... ME-CIR, NVFR (M/E), ATPL subjects... Have flown every single engine cessna and piper you could expect to find up north. Only have about 30 hours multi engine.
I am finding it very difficult to find a break in the twin engine industry and feel like no-body wants to know me, after all the hard work and effort of flying up north. And even while I'm still working my boss is breathing down our throats to: "Just be a little bit more proactive about your flying and then move on". (When we get paid peanuts?)
I understand alot of guys have been through exactly this. But just for the sake of my sanity, I'd love to hear from some guys who are flying the red-tails and shiney red jets who have been here and done it, and let me know how you perservered through it (ie, living on the bones of your arse, and trying to stop the sweat dripping into your eyes as you fly your C210 through the wet season and it stings like buggery). Or even if someone could shed some light on where I can find some twin work, because all I feel like doing at the moment is moving home and being with friends/family that I miss so badly!
2p!ssed
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Sorry 2P!issed, I don't have any suggestions for you!
I got my first ME Charter job (Baron) with 1000 TT including 37 hrs ME (20 dual and 17 PIC)
I think there is still a lot of "you gotta be in the right place at the right time"
Then again I don't fly red rat tails or big shiny red planes!
R
I got my first ME Charter job (Baron) with 1000 TT including 37 hrs ME (20 dual and 17 PIC)
I think there is still a lot of "you gotta be in the right place at the right time"
Then again I don't fly red rat tails or big shiny red planes!
R
Seasonally Adjusted
22 years old with 1200hrs?...stop stressing, you will get there.
As Rachel Hunter once said, "It won't happen overnight, but it will happen."
Barring any medical issues, attitude will be the prime decisive factor.
My advice for what it's worth, stop occasionally and smell the roses.
Then again you might not want to listen to me, I'm nearly twice your age and don't fly a shiny jet of any description, red tail or not.
As Rachel Hunter once said, "It won't happen overnight, but it will happen."
Barring any medical issues, attitude will be the prime decisive factor.
My advice for what it's worth, stop occasionally and smell the roses.
Then again you might not want to listen to me, I'm nearly twice your age and don't fly a shiny jet of any description, red tail or not.
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Uh-huh, you mean just like the guys currently flying those twins - and who will do the very same thing themselves at the first opportunity, right?
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Uh-huh, you mean just like the guys currently flying those twins - and who will do the very same thing themselves at the first opportunity, right?
2p!ssed2drive
A common attitude of guys in a hurry.
I have been there and now flying a jet with a Big White Roo on the tail (although I am not a QF pilot) and can I tell you its not that good.
I regularly look back at my time instructing, and charter in the NT with fond memories and wish I could go back.
Unfortunately I don't have the courage to leave the security of $$$ behind. I have commitments, like property which requires me to keep a reasonably paid job.
The best time you will ever have in aviation is NOW. So enjoy it.
You know what, employers and colleagues get sick to death of hearing guys like you wanting to be there yesterday.
You are still a baby with bugger all experience, whats the rush?
The best way you can work on some one wanting too help your career along, is by you concentrating on doing a good job in your current position.
Work hard at what your doing, make yourself a pleasure to work with, know your aircraft as well as possible, learn more about rules and regs, and see if you can't find a niche within your company.
Learn more about CRM, study more about EP's and pass it on to your CP. Read old safety magazines and pass on useful info to the company.
Some one will see your talents and off you will go, and before you know it you will be bored stiff working with a bunch of self important whinging pilots like me and my colleagues.
Most of all enjoy the best part of your life.
Remember when you first started and you couldn't wait to get into a 210. They were the good old days.
I have been there and now flying a jet with a Big White Roo on the tail (although I am not a QF pilot) and can I tell you its not that good.
I regularly look back at my time instructing, and charter in the NT with fond memories and wish I could go back.
Unfortunately I don't have the courage to leave the security of $$$ behind. I have commitments, like property which requires me to keep a reasonably paid job.
The best time you will ever have in aviation is NOW. So enjoy it.
You know what, employers and colleagues get sick to death of hearing guys like you wanting to be there yesterday.
You are still a baby with bugger all experience, whats the rush?
The best way you can work on some one wanting too help your career along, is by you concentrating on doing a good job in your current position.
Work hard at what your doing, make yourself a pleasure to work with, know your aircraft as well as possible, learn more about rules and regs, and see if you can't find a niche within your company.
Learn more about CRM, study more about EP's and pass it on to your CP. Read old safety magazines and pass on useful info to the company.
Some one will see your talents and off you will go, and before you know it you will be bored stiff working with a bunch of self important whinging pilots like me and my colleagues.
Most of all enjoy the best part of your life.
Remember when you first started and you couldn't wait to get into a 210. They were the good old days.
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Then again you might not want to listen to me, I'm nearly twice your age and don't fly a shiny jet of any description, red tail or not.
[QUOTE=RENURPP;2986523}
The best time you will ever have in aviation is NOW. [/QUOTE]
Are you guys out of your mind????
I am sick of hearing this "it's the best flying you'll ever do" line as those who say it never really did it in the first place or they did in 1975 when the same aircraft they are being flogged out today were actually new, and everything worked properly and you could live ok on the money they were paying you. Yeah it might have been fun then because you knew the wings weren't about to fall off and that when the AH said you were wings level you actually were!!
GA is a means to an end these days, that it is all. Get in and get out ASAP.
Most guys I know who did GA within the last 10 years are not sitting in a jet thinking "gee I wish I could be back in GA again" Most are saying "thank God I survived"
Best flying you'll ever do will be in a jet of some description not a 35 year old chieftan.
The best time you will ever have in aviation is NOW. [/QUOTE]
Are you guys out of your mind????
I am sick of hearing this "it's the best flying you'll ever do" line as those who say it never really did it in the first place or they did in 1975 when the same aircraft they are being flogged out today were actually new, and everything worked properly and you could live ok on the money they were paying you. Yeah it might have been fun then because you knew the wings weren't about to fall off and that when the AH said you were wings level you actually were!!
GA is a means to an end these days, that it is all. Get in and get out ASAP.
Most guys I know who did GA within the last 10 years are not sitting in a jet thinking "gee I wish I could be back in GA again" Most are saying "thank God I survived"
Best flying you'll ever do will be in a jet of some description not a 35 year old chieftan.
Last edited by neville_nobody; 26th Nov 2006 at 14:48.
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1200 hours and no twin job, and living in the up north. Mate I really feel for you. Of course you are the only person to ever be in this position.
GET A LIFE YOU F$#^ING DOPE!!
Thousands have been there before you and hundereds would have been alot older than you. The pay and conditions have been the same for some time in that area of the world. The good companies that pay well have always done so. The ones that don`t never have or will!!
And if you are working for who i think you are then you deserve everything you get for staying there and putting up with him!!
GET A LIFE YOU F$#^ING DOPE!!
Thousands have been there before you and hundereds would have been alot older than you. The pay and conditions have been the same for some time in that area of the world. The good companies that pay well have always done so. The ones that don`t never have or will!!
And if you are working for who i think you are then you deserve everything you get for staying there and putting up with him!!
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2p!ssed2drive...
Perhaps I can offer some perspective.....
Got my PPL in 1993, CPL in 1997, first commercial job in 1998....
From then to now I've worked on 3 continents, been made redundant 4 times, and worked for 5 airlines. In that time I've also loaded trucks, worked in pubs, sold photocopiers, laboured landscaping, and even worked as a cleaner at an airport!
All I can say is have a little faith, keep your goals in sight...and never forget your dream, cos without a dream to aspire to, you're screwed from the start.
Tommorrow I'll be taking 290 pax in a 767 from London to Egypt...all from a guy from small town NZ.
Perhaps I can offer some perspective.....
Got my PPL in 1993, CPL in 1997, first commercial job in 1998....
From then to now I've worked on 3 continents, been made redundant 4 times, and worked for 5 airlines. In that time I've also loaded trucks, worked in pubs, sold photocopiers, laboured landscaping, and even worked as a cleaner at an airport!
All I can say is have a little faith, keep your goals in sight...and never forget your dream, cos without a dream to aspire to, you're screwed from the start.
Tommorrow I'll be taking 290 pax in a 767 from London to Egypt...all from a guy from small town NZ.
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Nev. Nobody,
I could not agree more with you.
2pissed, I can see why you are frustrated, but have a look at your current situation. I will give you some advise as others here seem to rant on with crap.
Renew your instrument rating with some one that has a good reputation up north if it is within 90 days of expiring. You will need to do your research to see what ATO(s) are used by a twin engine company that you may be targeting.
It may be hard for you to get to a company that has twin engines to get your 'face in the door', but call them and ask them what ATO they use.
If you impress their ATO, make sure you get the ATO to at least offer a recommendation to help you.
This may cost you a couple of grand, but once you land that twin job, flying 50-70 hours a month, you will think that it has been worth the investment.
Now, when you have done all your G.A. time and all your studies, your next question will be, why should I work for some airlines when their pay is crap also. Why should I sell myself to the lower paying airlines for all the back braking work that I have done?
Your answer could be - other easier piloting paths through certain companies have let to the lowering of wages across the board of aviation.
The questions will keep coming for many years of your career.
The sacrifices are many, but you will be a better person at the end of your hard work. Remember, you will be respected a great deal more by many when you do get through the next couple of years.
All the best.
I could not agree more with you.
2pissed, I can see why you are frustrated, but have a look at your current situation. I will give you some advise as others here seem to rant on with crap.
Renew your instrument rating with some one that has a good reputation up north if it is within 90 days of expiring. You will need to do your research to see what ATO(s) are used by a twin engine company that you may be targeting.
It may be hard for you to get to a company that has twin engines to get your 'face in the door', but call them and ask them what ATO they use.
If you impress their ATO, make sure you get the ATO to at least offer a recommendation to help you.
This may cost you a couple of grand, but once you land that twin job, flying 50-70 hours a month, you will think that it has been worth the investment.
Now, when you have done all your G.A. time and all your studies, your next question will be, why should I work for some airlines when their pay is crap also. Why should I sell myself to the lower paying airlines for all the back braking work that I have done?
Your answer could be - other easier piloting paths through certain companies have let to the lowering of wages across the board of aviation.
The questions will keep coming for many years of your career.
The sacrifices are many, but you will be a better person at the end of your hard work. Remember, you will be respected a great deal more by many when you do get through the next couple of years.
All the best.
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GA is a means to an end these days, that it is all. Get in and get out ASAP.
"Who cares if im not earning anything/below award, ill be getting the hours for the qantas application soon..."
2p!issed, calm down man, I had less hours than you to get my current (and first) twin job, and all due to a few good decisions I made and being right place right time. It happens
Plus you're 22 with 1200 you arent doing bad mate....disco
I am sick of hearing this "it's the best flying you'll ever do" line as those who say it never really did it in the first place or they did in 1975 when the same aircraft they are being flogged out today were actually new, and everything worked properly and you could live ok on the money they were paying you. Yeah it might have been fun then because you knew the wings weren't about to fall off and that when the AH said you were wings level you actually were!!
Nothing worse than being stuck next to an inexperienced no it all who thinks he's the only person who has done it hard.
Let me make the point, its not low hrs its the attitude I am referring to.
Started in 1976, had 9,000 hrs/1995 before I got out of "crappy old twins" Queen Airs, 680 aerocomms, the oldest Baron in Aus, tri-landers dot model 402's or 401's the list goes on. A 30 yr old chieftan would have been a luxury.
As for everything working you really are a dreamer. They had valve radio's for christ sake.
Find some one who was flying around in 1975 and talk to them about the quality of aircraft. You are bloody lucky to be flying the equipment that is around today. (generally) if its worse than the average have the guts to write it up until its fixed.
Mobs like Hazzletons, Massling, Aeropelican were the big names back then, ask the pilots from any of them what the aircraft were like. Overloading was the norm, if you wanted to keep your job. And I mean the NORM.
Didn't get out of singles till I had around 5,000hrs and yes it was all good stuff.
There were days when you wish you weren't there, but I don't believe there are any jobs that aren't like that.
So 22yrs old 1200hrs, do us all a favour and do your job shut your mouth and enjoy it.
I am not complaining about having been there it was great fun.
Now I sit there operating a bloody computer, it flies, lands, does everything itslef, it is extremely boring, away from home more than I am there, and with snotty nosed F/O's who think flying an reasonably modern chieftan makes them gods gift to aviation. The sort that love wearing hats, shiny bars Ray Bans around shopping centres.
If you really don't like it, do us a favour and piss off and be an accountant.
Having said all that, and to answer your original question.
I found working with a great bunch of blokes, some good friendships and a good social life made the hard days easier.
Don't be satisfied with your current standard provides some motivation to improve.
How well do you really know your aircraft?
Are you reading more about flying jets than learning about your 210 systems?
Learning can be really satisfying, and you will stand out to prospective employers and your current one.
As for the money, if you aren't getting the award, find another job that does pay it. If thats not enough, get a second job, thats what I did.
Last edited by RENURPP; 27th Nov 2006 at 01:35.
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Thanks
Howdie Guys,
Extending a special thanks to all of you.
Particularly, beaver_rotate, haughtney1 (you're a true gent), 32megapixels.
RENURPP - I like you're straight up and down attitude in your post. I've now made it my ambition to prove to you I'm not going to become and accountant
As you all know... some days are harder than others. What I've got from most of you is to enjoy the views and places I fly around now... stay professional... poon some tang, and be patient
Extending a special thanks to all of you.
Particularly, beaver_rotate, haughtney1 (you're a true gent), 32megapixels.
RENURPP - I like you're straight up and down attitude in your post. I've now made it my ambition to prove to you I'm not going to become and accountant
As you all know... some days are harder than others. What I've got from most of you is to enjoy the views and places I fly around now... stay professional... poon some tang, and be patient
Renurpp gimme a break
In 1975 you were not flying aircraft that were built in 1948 which is the equilivent of what most people in GA do today.
Pilots I have spoken to from Masling, were flying NEW aeroplanes not stuff built in the 50's. Chieftans back in the 80's were NEW aeroplanes. So were Banderaintes. So were Metros etc. Old aircraft were no more than 10 years old in general. While the technology might have not have been as reliable, the airframes were not that old.
Another example is Pelair, they are flying the SAME aircraft that were used for freight in 1980!!
When you tell these guys oh yeah such and such aeroplane is still flying with so and so they just shake their heads and laugh.
I think also some consideration has to be given to blokes like 2 pissed who are out in the bush flying around as opposed to someone living in Melbourne. Life is alot easier in the cooler climates and everywhere you go has a Navaid. Working in remote areas is tough and the pilots would be some of the lowest paid workers around.
There is a saying about GA and that is the "further you get away from it the better it was", and I suspect you might be suffering a bit of that syndrome.
If you went back and started flying a 1977 PA-31 in somewhere like Halls Creek, Normanton, Wydham etc in the middle of the wet, with all the associate stuffing around with aboriginals and government departments, living in some crap house, 30-40 degrees 8 months of the year, aircraft with no aircon you'd be screaming for your pressurised jet within a week or two I'm sure.
Yeah GA was an experience, but don't glorify it beyond what it is.
2Pissed
As for getting twin time unfortunately that is getting harder and harder as most of the small RPT routes are now gone, and the twin charter market is declining. My only suggestion is with your experience try and get into an operater with singles and twins so you can work your way up, HOWEVER, check with them that progression is available. Hear to many stories of experienced single drivers being bypassed for twin jobs in those kind of companies. Also don't work for free it only stuffs it for everyone.
In 1975 you were not flying aircraft that were built in 1948 which is the equilivent of what most people in GA do today.
Pilots I have spoken to from Masling, were flying NEW aeroplanes not stuff built in the 50's. Chieftans back in the 80's were NEW aeroplanes. So were Banderaintes. So were Metros etc. Old aircraft were no more than 10 years old in general. While the technology might have not have been as reliable, the airframes were not that old.
Another example is Pelair, they are flying the SAME aircraft that were used for freight in 1980!!
When you tell these guys oh yeah such and such aeroplane is still flying with so and so they just shake their heads and laugh.
I think also some consideration has to be given to blokes like 2 pissed who are out in the bush flying around as opposed to someone living in Melbourne. Life is alot easier in the cooler climates and everywhere you go has a Navaid. Working in remote areas is tough and the pilots would be some of the lowest paid workers around.
There is a saying about GA and that is the "further you get away from it the better it was", and I suspect you might be suffering a bit of that syndrome.
If you went back and started flying a 1977 PA-31 in somewhere like Halls Creek, Normanton, Wydham etc in the middle of the wet, with all the associate stuffing around with aboriginals and government departments, living in some crap house, 30-40 degrees 8 months of the year, aircraft with no aircon you'd be screaming for your pressurised jet within a week or two I'm sure.
Yeah GA was an experience, but don't glorify it beyond what it is.
2Pissed
As for getting twin time unfortunately that is getting harder and harder as most of the small RPT routes are now gone, and the twin charter market is declining. My only suggestion is with your experience try and get into an operater with singles and twins so you can work your way up, HOWEVER, check with them that progression is available. Hear to many stories of experienced single drivers being bypassed for twin jobs in those kind of companies. Also don't work for free it only stuffs it for everyone.
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nevnobody
thanks mate... I've been to all those places...
Halls Creek, Kununurra, Fitzroy Crossing, Newman, Balgo, Broome, Derby, Wyndham, Hooker Creek, Darwin.... and all the aboriginal communities between
a few memories there for some I bet....!
Halls Creek, Kununurra, Fitzroy Crossing, Newman, Balgo, Broome, Derby, Wyndham, Hooker Creek, Darwin.... and all the aboriginal communities between
a few memories there for some I bet....!
I have flown the same GA aeroplanes today I did 20-30 years ago. The only difference today is they are generally better, despite their age.
New interiors, new avionics, engines get overhauled / replaced every few thousand hours! 10 years old, 20 years old, 30 years old! What's different?
New interiors, new avionics, engines get overhauled / replaced every few thousand hours! 10 years old, 20 years old, 30 years old! What's different?
Nev
First, I was not suggesting he stay in GA all his career, I simply said enjoy it while you can because its the best flying he will do.
He may get paid more, live in a city but the flying will not be near as good. So for the short time you are in GA enjoy it.
Second, Massling did not have Bandits in 1975 they were flying clapped out old Queen Airs. and they were old.
The airframes may not have been quite as old as they are today BUT the technology was much worse. Are there any aircraft with valve radios or trainling HF antennas left?
Most of my GA time was doing exactly what he is doing, (just a lot longer) I have a good idea what its like, I had the pleasure of staying in more aboriginal communities then I care to remember, mostly in the NT and Northern WA.
Maybe!
He may get paid more, live in a city but the flying will not be near as good. So for the short time you are in GA enjoy it.
Second, Massling did not have Bandits in 1975 they were flying clapped out old Queen Airs. and they were old.
The airframes may not have been quite as old as they are today BUT the technology was much worse. Are there any aircraft with valve radios or trainling HF antennas left?
Most of my GA time was doing exactly what he is doing, (just a lot longer) I have a good idea what its like, I had the pleasure of staying in more aboriginal communities then I care to remember, mostly in the NT and Northern WA.
There is a saying about GA and that is the "further you get away from it the better it was", and I suspect you might be suffering a bit of that syndrome.