The new way to fly an ab initio trainer
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Did my flying training with a bunch of cadets going straight to Dash8s off the Duchie, and was taught everything at 3 Deg. - straight ins, 1000ft cct. to a 3000m/500' finals point- lines right up with the PAPI
My school's rationale was, if youre going to be, or want to be an airline pilot, everything you will fly then will be a 2 -3 Deg approach, so get your head around it now.
If youre gonna be weekend warrior, then who cares?
Yeah GA might be a little bit more improvised, but Im training for the big event, not the ones in between.
My school's rationale was, if youre going to be, or want to be an airline pilot, everything you will fly then will be a 2 -3 Deg approach, so get your head around it now.
If youre gonna be weekend warrior, then who cares?
Yeah GA might be a little bit more improvised, but Im training for the big event, not the ones in between.
I know at my old flying school we were not allowed to teach sideslip with flap, not because the flaps would be over stressed?? but because the flaps shield the rudder and hence reduce its effectiveness. You can do it if you want too.
I'm not too sure about training to the end product rather than whats going to happen in between, unless all your flights are wholly within CTA and are also all IFR. Otherwise there are other variables at play as well.
I'm not too sure about training to the end product rather than whats going to happen in between, unless all your flights are wholly within CTA and are also all IFR. Otherwise there are other variables at play as well.
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Why do schools assume that students are incapable??
I'm not trying to pick on DreamerJules, as I've heard this rationale before from way too many people (notably GFS at MB):
Firstly, it takes only a few approaches to "get your head around" a 3 Degree approach.
Second, unless you're a cadet, you're going to spend more than a few years in singles, twins, etc, often at strips without PAPI's/VASIS's. I've only worked for four companies, but they ALL went in for steeper approaches than 3 Degrees (in a Single). The only time we ever lined up for the 5 mile final/1500' was when doing straight in approaches in a multi.
The other "gem" was:
This has two problems for me.
Firstly in a single, from late downwind until the threshold you're not going to make the field in case of an engine failure. And if you don't have your Sh!t wired tight, you wont get from 3000m/500' to the threshold in a multi either!
Secondly, IMHO, this kind of circuit only benefits the School/Instructor. By extending downwind that much, you're adding around 2-3 minutes for a circuit.
Flying a tight circuit, I can easily do 10 T&G and one full stop in 0.9 airwitch. I'm guessing here, but I'd doubt whether you could do more than 6 T&G flying a circuit that included 3000m/500' final point.
In everything I've flown (up to PA31, including RPT on the PA31) I turn base with the threshold 40 degrees over my shoulder, and aim for a 8-900m/6-700' final.
Finally,
Really? Unless you're a Cadet, you ARE training for the "ones in between". I'm not saying that you shouldn't be aware of the "big event", but be realistic: Fly a single like it's a single.
As I said, I'm not having a go at DreamerJules (She may be a Cadet, after all), but I've heard the above from way too many people who've later
1: Realised how much money they wasted doing circuits;
and 2: Have had to be re-taught how to fly a circuit by Operators who hate seeing their money being wasted.
DIVOSH!
My school's rationale was, if youre going to be, or want to be an airline pilot, everything you will fly then will be a 2 -3 Deg approach, so get your head around it now.
Second, unless you're a cadet, you're going to spend more than a few years in singles, twins, etc, often at strips without PAPI's/VASIS's. I've only worked for four companies, but they ALL went in for steeper approaches than 3 Degrees (in a Single). The only time we ever lined up for the 5 mile final/1500' was when doing straight in approaches in a multi.
The other "gem" was:
1000ft cct. to a 3000m/500' finals point- lines right up with the PAPI
Firstly in a single, from late downwind until the threshold you're not going to make the field in case of an engine failure. And if you don't have your Sh!t wired tight, you wont get from 3000m/500' to the threshold in a multi either!
Secondly, IMHO, this kind of circuit only benefits the School/Instructor. By extending downwind that much, you're adding around 2-3 minutes for a circuit.
Flying a tight circuit, I can easily do 10 T&G and one full stop in 0.9 airwitch. I'm guessing here, but I'd doubt whether you could do more than 6 T&G flying a circuit that included 3000m/500' final point.
In everything I've flown (up to PA31, including RPT on the PA31) I turn base with the threshold 40 degrees over my shoulder, and aim for a 8-900m/6-700' final.
Finally,
Yeah GA might be a little bit more improvised, but Im training for the big event, not the ones in between.
As I said, I'm not having a go at DreamerJules (She may be a Cadet, after all), but I've heard the above from way too many people who've later
1: Realised how much money they wasted doing circuits;
and 2: Have had to be re-taught how to fly a circuit by Operators who hate seeing their money being wasted.
DIVOSH!
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Awol 57,
Fair enough, I'll agree that full flap would provide some masking to the rudder - but enough to warrent a policy of not doing sideslips because of this concern alone? I can gaurantee that if you are flying at a normal approach speed there is plenty enough rudder authority there to kick in and hold a good sideslip. If perchance you feel things are getting out of hand all you have to do is neutralise the rudder and hold the wings level and you will be back in balance in a flash as most basic trainers are very positively directionally stable!
Dreamer J - sorry but open your eyes! I think you have a bit of learning to do...
Fair enough, I'll agree that full flap would provide some masking to the rudder - but enough to warrent a policy of not doing sideslips because of this concern alone? I can gaurantee that if you are flying at a normal approach speed there is plenty enough rudder authority there to kick in and hold a good sideslip. If perchance you feel things are getting out of hand all you have to do is neutralise the rudder and hold the wings level and you will be back in balance in a flash as most basic trainers are very positively directionally stable!
Dreamer J - sorry but open your eyes! I think you have a bit of learning to do...
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Di_Vosh - right on the money. Well said. You might not want to pick on DreamerJules, but I will - DreamerJules, you are (as your nick suggests) still dreaming. Wait till you have the first "P" in PPrune before pontificating.
And on the rudder blanking topic - in my experience there is no single answer. I've flown types where there is almost zero rudder blanking no matter what flap or rudder inputs are applied (and I am talking full deflection from Vs to Va), and I've flown two types where the immediate response to full rudder is a vicious nose-down pitch.
Blanket (pun intended) rules suggesting that 'sideslip is bad' are arse-covering measures catering for the lowest commen denominator imposed by those unable/unwilling to properly teach the phenomenon. Using the rudder will not necessarily blank the elevator in all types, and will not necessarily stress the flaps.
And on the rudder blanking topic - in my experience there is no single answer. I've flown types where there is almost zero rudder blanking no matter what flap or rudder inputs are applied (and I am talking full deflection from Vs to Va), and I've flown two types where the immediate response to full rudder is a vicious nose-down pitch.
Blanket (pun intended) rules suggesting that 'sideslip is bad' are arse-covering measures catering for the lowest commen denominator imposed by those unable/unwilling to properly teach the phenomenon. Using the rudder will not necessarily blank the elevator in all types, and will not necessarily stress the flaps.
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Fair enough fellas. I can cop it on the chin, and I suppose I may have appeared to be having a dig, however I did learn with airline cadets, and if what I was taught is good enough for my ex- RAAF VIP/Roulette/USAF exhange instructor CFI, then its good enough for me, and its obviously good enough for the end-receiver airline (non aussie), who have had four courses go through without complaint, and their native country provides some of the most challenging flying anywhere in the world- as acknowledged by many aussies who craft their trade there.
As far as GA training, I was encouraged by my instructor to accomplish things like first taxiway landings (800m strip) from a gfpt stage. By CPL, aerobatics and formation flying have given way to economic considerations, and what is expected from a prospective employer. I was expected to set a power setting that would take me to the keys from my TOD in a twin, regardless of flightpath and attitude changes... I think any GA employer "in between" would be happy with that, and I think an airline would too.
Every school is different- and admittedly, every teaching culture assumes its methods to be of a higher standard than the next- no body likes being told they do it wrong, hence half of the conversations here are people arguing over their preference- there's no point in crucifying someone for it.
Any pilot with 200hrs should be able to adapt what they do to the conditions present, and Ive been taught that, allthough I may have not stated it initially- Capt Johns- it seems a professional enough attitude to me
Cheers
OH PS...
Divosh, Im only a she on weekends...
As far as GA training, I was encouraged by my instructor to accomplish things like first taxiway landings (800m strip) from a gfpt stage. By CPL, aerobatics and formation flying have given way to economic considerations, and what is expected from a prospective employer. I was expected to set a power setting that would take me to the keys from my TOD in a twin, regardless of flightpath and attitude changes... I think any GA employer "in between" would be happy with that, and I think an airline would too.
Every school is different- and admittedly, every teaching culture assumes its methods to be of a higher standard than the next- no body likes being told they do it wrong, hence half of the conversations here are people arguing over their preference- there's no point in crucifying someone for it.
Any pilot with 200hrs should be able to adapt what they do to the conditions present, and Ive been taught that, allthough I may have not stated it initially- Capt Johns- it seems a professional enough attitude to me
Cheers
OH PS...
Divosh, Im only a she on weekends...
Last edited by GolfTangoVictor; 22nd Nov 2006 at 00:26.
LOL
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If my memory serves me correct, i remember someone stating on PPrune, that the B737 NG POH recommended a 1 mile circuit? or something similarly tight?
i still prefer to fly all my approaches with power at Idle, or just over. If im too high, sideslip it in. with flap set in reference to the windsock. windsock horizontal - 0 flap, windsock drooping vertical - full flap.
but i do have a question, being a lowly GA flyer, Isnt the 3 deg approach only mandatory when IFR? meaning, if on a clear day, and you are cleared for a Visual approach from say 10 mile. then a 3 deg approach isnt mandatory???
i still prefer to fly all my approaches with power at Idle, or just over. If im too high, sideslip it in. with flap set in reference to the windsock. windsock horizontal - 0 flap, windsock drooping vertical - full flap.
but i do have a question, being a lowly GA flyer, Isnt the 3 deg approach only mandatory when IFR? meaning, if on a clear day, and you are cleared for a Visual approach from say 10 mile. then a 3 deg approach isnt mandatory???
Last edited by Ultralights; 24th Nov 2006 at 02:23.
Awol 57,
Fair enough, I'll agree that full flap would provide some masking to the rudder - but enough to warrent a policy of not doing sideslips because of this concern alone? I can gaurantee that if you are flying at a normal approach speed there is plenty enough rudder authority there to kick in and hold a good sideslip. If perchance you feel things are getting out of hand all you have to do is neutralise the rudder and hold the wings level and you will be back in balance in a flash as most basic trainers are very positively directionally stable!
Dreamer J - sorry but open your eyes! I think you have a bit of learning to do...
Fair enough, I'll agree that full flap would provide some masking to the rudder - but enough to warrent a policy of not doing sideslips because of this concern alone? I can gaurantee that if you are flying at a normal approach speed there is plenty enough rudder authority there to kick in and hold a good sideslip. If perchance you feel things are getting out of hand all you have to do is neutralise the rudder and hold the wings level and you will be back in balance in a flash as most basic trainers are very positively directionally stable!
Dreamer J - sorry but open your eyes! I think you have a bit of learning to do...
Agreed though, its not hard to stabilise it as you said. I just taught how they asked me too
I can see the reasoning behind it.Also agree you can't put a blanket rule out there like that. We did talk about why we didn't let them sideslip with flap out (hopefully after an explanation most left with an understanding rather than a "You can never sideslip any aircraft with full flap). Sorry guys way off topic
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Awol57,
Fair explanation and I understand an instructor must follow the protocols of his/her school/employer. Glad to hear that sideslips were still covered so that the skill can still be obtained in the early stages. Would agree that if the average trainee needs to sideslip on a normal approach in a 'normal GA trainer' their ability to rescue the already dodgy approach is probably suspect
However it can help with a glide approach that has been left a bit too high for a bit too long!
Fair explanation and I understand an instructor must follow the protocols of his/her school/employer. Glad to hear that sideslips were still covered so that the skill can still be obtained in the early stages. Would agree that if the average trainee needs to sideslip on a normal approach in a 'normal GA trainer' their ability to rescue the already dodgy approach is probably suspect
However it can help with a glide approach that has been left a bit too high for a bit too long!
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Awol57,
Fair explanation and I understand an instructor must follow the protocols of his/her school/employer. Glad to hear that sideslips were still covered so that the skill can still be obtained in the early stages. Would agree that if the average trainee needs to sideslip on a normal approach in a 'normal GA trainer' their ability to rescue the already dodgy approach is probably suspect However it can help with a glide approach that has been left a bit too high for a bit too long!
Fair explanation and I understand an instructor must follow the protocols of his/her school/employer. Glad to hear that sideslips were still covered so that the skill can still be obtained in the early stages. Would agree that if the average trainee needs to sideslip on a normal approach in a 'normal GA trainer' their ability to rescue the already dodgy approach is probably suspect
However it can help with a glide approach that has been left a bit too high for a bit too long!The CFI used to make us go to crop-height to prove we were definitely going to "get in". This accompanied by a running commentary "You're never going to get in sonny, you're never going to get in.... I don't know how you managed to get in there sonny, who the hell taught you to side-slip like that?"
Happy days!
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Light single engine aircraft have a natural glide slope angle of five degrees or more when set with a trickle of power and landing flap. They are NOT jets believe it or not. Glide approaches can be as much as seven degrees and are perfectly safe.
Three degrees is the ICAO recommended angle for ILS approaches only because that gives a compromise between heavy aircraft inertia and thrust characteristics of jet engines. Teaching three degree approaches in a light twin or single just because one fine day you might fly a 747 is just as useless as driving at 100k in a 40k zone because one day you might be a Formula One racing driver. That said, some bogans drive that way naturally. What puzzles me are flying schools that boast of training future jet captains yet won´t let their solo students wear four bars when flying in command of a Cessna 150.
Three degrees is the ICAO recommended angle for ILS approaches only because that gives a compromise between heavy aircraft inertia and thrust characteristics of jet engines. Teaching three degree approaches in a light twin or single just because one fine day you might fly a 747 is just as useless as driving at 100k in a 40k zone because one day you might be a Formula One racing driver. That said, some bogans drive that way naturally. What puzzles me are flying schools that boast of training future jet captains yet won´t let their solo students wear four bars when flying in command of a Cessna 150.
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Hmmm.... This thread has given me a good insight. I'm about to start doing circuits out at Moorabbin in a Tomahawk. We went over the procedure in our last post-flight breifing and it seems to be the traditional style of approach...
Even though I only have an SPL, it dosen't seem to make much sense to fly that sort of approach in a small plane, what a waste of time. I think it would make more sense to train the pilot to fly a big jet when she needs to, rather than from the start... Uneccesary.
Even though I only have an SPL, it dosen't seem to make much sense to fly that sort of approach in a small plane, what a waste of time. I think it would make more sense to train the pilot to fly a big jet when she needs to, rather than from the start... Uneccesary.
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To satisfy my curiosity, the other day I finished up early and went to said school and paid my hard earned for a 3 circuit dual check on a 2 seat trainer.
After start-up I leaned the mixture, only to have it shoved back in to full rich and told that I must always taxi with rich mixture (I had been through the OP's manual as I was early for my booking, nothing there about it), I bit my lip and recited "serenity now" in my head.
Once in the run-up area I was told that it was very important that I turn into wind for cooling purposes. By this stage I had that familiar taste of copper in my mouth.
After take off I was asked "so... what sort of circuit is this?" I think he wasn't used to being in visual contact with the runway on downwind. I tried one his way and it had to be over 1.68nm out.
It is true-they do teach higher power, draggy approaches and try to mimic flying an ILS in a bug smasher. You would not make it into the field if the fan in front went quiet. I for one will not be back.
After start-up I leaned the mixture, only to have it shoved back in to full rich and told that I must always taxi with rich mixture (I had been through the OP's manual as I was early for my booking, nothing there about it), I bit my lip and recited "serenity now" in my head.
Once in the run-up area I was told that it was very important that I turn into wind for cooling purposes. By this stage I had that familiar taste of copper in my mouth.
After take off I was asked "so... what sort of circuit is this?" I think he wasn't used to being in visual contact with the runway on downwind. I tried one his way and it had to be over 1.68nm out.
It is true-they do teach higher power, draggy approaches and try to mimic flying an ILS in a bug smasher. You would not make it into the field if the fan in front went quiet. I for one will not be back.
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Awol 57,
Fair enough, I'll agree that full flap would provide some masking to the rudder - but enough to warrent a policy of not doing sideslips because of this concern alone? I can gaurantee that if you are flying at a normal approach speed there is plenty enough rudder authority there to kick in and hold a good sideslip. If perchance you feel things are getting out of hand all you have to do is neutralise the rudder and hold the wings level and you will be back in balance in a flash as most basic trainers are very positively directionally stable!
Dreamer J - sorry but open your eyes! I think you have a bit of learning to do...
Fair enough, I'll agree that full flap would provide some masking to the rudder - but enough to warrent a policy of not doing sideslips because of this concern alone? I can gaurantee that if you are flying at a normal approach speed there is plenty enough rudder authority there to kick in and hold a good sideslip. If perchance you feel things are getting out of hand all you have to do is neutralise the rudder and hold the wings level and you will be back in balance in a flash as most basic trainers are very positively directionally stable!
Dreamer J - sorry but open your eyes! I think you have a bit of learning to do...
The problem isnt masking rudder authority but you can exceed the critical abgle of the outboard wing and stall the aircraft.
Most people use the technique when they are a tad high on finals and we all know what happens with full flap extended on an aircraft when she wants to flip on her back........ simple solution = learn sideslip nice and high, use it if you ever have an engine failure and need to loose height quickly ot get into the paddock. Other than that work hard to have the aircraft on the correct path for final when you are established and if its windy full flap late finals and if its still full flap when you first turn finals.......
Back to the scarecan for me now