Young instructor bashing
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Young instructor bashing
Wow, the level of verbal bashing against young instructors on this forum has really hit a higher gear in the last few days. So far today I’ve read five posts in just three threads that have taken a blatantly derogatory attitude towards junior instructors with low total times. Talk about trying to establish negative stereotypes.
How hard is it to understand that a junior instructor is a junior instructor regardless of their total time? I'll certainly agree that a pilot with 5000+ hrs GA in both singles and twins flying in remote areas is going to have an advantage in general experience over a 250 odd hrs CPL. That doesn't change the fact that both pilots, given an junior grade three instructors rating still have a hell of a lot to learn about instructing. Correct instructional technique, being able to critically analyse a students training progress, and being able to critically analyse ones own flying and knowledge takes time to develop. Realistically, a good junior instructor needs to have a firm theoretical understanding of the elements that underlie their own knowledge, a desire to act as a professional teacher, and most importantly a positive attitude from both the individual in question and the senior flight instruction staff in the training organisation.
I’m only a 500 odd hour pilot myself and have held a flight instructors rating and worked as an instructor for around 12 months in a small flying school. Despite this, I too am utterly shocked at the incredible disservice that many flight schools appear to be performing against their high dollar value clients. Its quite obvious that there is a developing culture of over simplifying flight procedures with out providing an evidence based or rational argument as to why these procedures should be taking place (ie. the ludicrous notion of leaving an engine at full rich during the cruise phase of flight), however this is hardly a new state of affairs. My own example of this is the fanaticism displayed to me by both instructors and charter pilots of never flying an aircraft “over square” (In the 9 years I’ve been flying I’ve yet to have been given a valid explanation of why this “rule” exists as anything other than a general self limiting rule of thumb). What ever happened to both students and instructors actually trying to understand WHY we do EVERYTHING we do in an aircraft?
IMO a large portion of these developing problems falls at the feet of three kinds of people in GA instructing.
A) Schools performing flight instructor ratings. During my instructor rating I was made to feel inadequate and stupid every single day of that three month period. Every single word I uttered during both my pre-flight and in-flight instruction was attacked by senior instructors to the point that by the end of the training I could say with 100% confidence that I could provide a practical or theoretical rational for every single thing I was doing or trying to teach. There was a culture fostered amongst us trainee instructors to debate instructional techniques and challenge each other over the theoretical and practical aspects of the phases of flight we would be teaching in the real world once we had graduated. That’s the way it was and that’s the way it should be.
Does this still exist? Seriously, it certainly doesn’t sound like it if people are genuinely coming up with the kinds of questions I’ve seen lately here on PPRuNe. The attitudes of the instructors “going with the flow” and not actually teaching is both pathetic and downright unprofessional. Its the whole bloody purpose of a flight instructors course to make sure this doesn’t happen in the first place, regardless of the experience a candidate has before the start of the rating.
B) Senior instructional staff. Do you provide any support to those flight instructors that you so graciously allow to fly 3-4 hours a week on casual rates that keep junior staff members well below the poverty line? Do you foster a culture of critical constructive appraisal within your organizations to make sure that the more junior, less experienced staff under your supervision are keeping to the standards that you expect of your flight training organisation? When was the last time you actually flew with one of your junior instructors to see how their abilities and standards are improving instead of allowing them to merely do the required annual (could be bi-annual… its been a while) check that the CFI is required to do under the CAO’s? Do you have any form of real world standardisation at all between instructors in your organisation to ensure a continuity of education for the students that are paying a small fortune to learn to fly? I know that some organizations do this particularly well and should be applauded for the efforts they make, yet others won’t have the first idea of what I’m talking about.
C) Junior instructors. First up…. If you don’t want to instruct, then don’t. Get the f
k out of the instructing industry right now, pack your bags and go bush. There are two mainstream ways of getting your first 1000hrs and those are 1) Be a professional flight instructor that cares for your students and gets 100% out of each flight for their own development, and 2) Go bush and fly charter or scenics in some of the worlds most remote areas where you learn very quickly to sink or swim in what is with out doubt a very difficult industry to survive. If your sitting in a major capital city with an instructors rating, no total time, no desire to go bush and no desire to instruct…. then why the hell did you become a pilot in the first place.
Anyone who thinks that the capacity to be a good instructor is directly proportional to ones experience is deluding themselves. Is all down to attitude, professionalism and a desire to provide a quality learning experience for your students. Everyone has to start somewhere, but their attitude alone is what sets them apart.
How hard is it to understand that a junior instructor is a junior instructor regardless of their total time? I'll certainly agree that a pilot with 5000+ hrs GA in both singles and twins flying in remote areas is going to have an advantage in general experience over a 250 odd hrs CPL. That doesn't change the fact that both pilots, given an junior grade three instructors rating still have a hell of a lot to learn about instructing. Correct instructional technique, being able to critically analyse a students training progress, and being able to critically analyse ones own flying and knowledge takes time to develop. Realistically, a good junior instructor needs to have a firm theoretical understanding of the elements that underlie their own knowledge, a desire to act as a professional teacher, and most importantly a positive attitude from both the individual in question and the senior flight instruction staff in the training organisation.
I’m only a 500 odd hour pilot myself and have held a flight instructors rating and worked as an instructor for around 12 months in a small flying school. Despite this, I too am utterly shocked at the incredible disservice that many flight schools appear to be performing against their high dollar value clients. Its quite obvious that there is a developing culture of over simplifying flight procedures with out providing an evidence based or rational argument as to why these procedures should be taking place (ie. the ludicrous notion of leaving an engine at full rich during the cruise phase of flight), however this is hardly a new state of affairs. My own example of this is the fanaticism displayed to me by both instructors and charter pilots of never flying an aircraft “over square” (In the 9 years I’ve been flying I’ve yet to have been given a valid explanation of why this “rule” exists as anything other than a general self limiting rule of thumb). What ever happened to both students and instructors actually trying to understand WHY we do EVERYTHING we do in an aircraft?
IMO a large portion of these developing problems falls at the feet of three kinds of people in GA instructing.
A) Schools performing flight instructor ratings. During my instructor rating I was made to feel inadequate and stupid every single day of that three month period. Every single word I uttered during both my pre-flight and in-flight instruction was attacked by senior instructors to the point that by the end of the training I could say with 100% confidence that I could provide a practical or theoretical rational for every single thing I was doing or trying to teach. There was a culture fostered amongst us trainee instructors to debate instructional techniques and challenge each other over the theoretical and practical aspects of the phases of flight we would be teaching in the real world once we had graduated. That’s the way it was and that’s the way it should be.
Does this still exist? Seriously, it certainly doesn’t sound like it if people are genuinely coming up with the kinds of questions I’ve seen lately here on PPRuNe. The attitudes of the instructors “going with the flow” and not actually teaching is both pathetic and downright unprofessional. Its the whole bloody purpose of a flight instructors course to make sure this doesn’t happen in the first place, regardless of the experience a candidate has before the start of the rating.
B) Senior instructional staff. Do you provide any support to those flight instructors that you so graciously allow to fly 3-4 hours a week on casual rates that keep junior staff members well below the poverty line? Do you foster a culture of critical constructive appraisal within your organizations to make sure that the more junior, less experienced staff under your supervision are keeping to the standards that you expect of your flight training organisation? When was the last time you actually flew with one of your junior instructors to see how their abilities and standards are improving instead of allowing them to merely do the required annual (could be bi-annual… its been a while) check that the CFI is required to do under the CAO’s? Do you have any form of real world standardisation at all between instructors in your organisation to ensure a continuity of education for the students that are paying a small fortune to learn to fly? I know that some organizations do this particularly well and should be applauded for the efforts they make, yet others won’t have the first idea of what I’m talking about.
C) Junior instructors. First up…. If you don’t want to instruct, then don’t. Get the f
k out of the instructing industry right now, pack your bags and go bush. There are two mainstream ways of getting your first 1000hrs and those are 1) Be a professional flight instructor that cares for your students and gets 100% out of each flight for their own development, and 2) Go bush and fly charter or scenics in some of the worlds most remote areas where you learn very quickly to sink or swim in what is with out doubt a very difficult industry to survive. If your sitting in a major capital city with an instructors rating, no total time, no desire to go bush and no desire to instruct…. then why the hell did you become a pilot in the first place.Anyone who thinks that the capacity to be a good instructor is directly proportional to ones experience is deluding themselves. Is all down to attitude, professionalism and a desire to provide a quality learning experience for your students. Everyone has to start somewhere, but their attitude alone is what sets them apart.
You write well and don't sound like a school leaver from last year. The public education system is going downhill fast. Good work, you got out ok. Standards are on the way down and people aren't understanding what they are being taught these days.
Oh, hang on, am I talking about flying or education? Oh, they are both the same.
It's "generation Y" that's causing the problems. Seems that people just happy to take the quickest shortcut to get the job done, sometimes with little or no understanding whatsoever. It's the way it is now days in nearly every industry.
Seems everyone is happy to sit back and let things happen around them and criticise others that go out and get things done, or atleast try to.
Oh, hang on, am I talking about flying or education? Oh, they are both the same.
It's "generation Y" that's causing the problems. Seems that people just happy to take the quickest shortcut to get the job done, sometimes with little or no understanding whatsoever. It's the way it is now days in nearly every industry.
Seems everyone is happy to sit back and let things happen around them and criticise others that go out and get things done, or atleast try to.
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The "Generation Gap"
G'day Squawk,
In a way I'd agree that the current education system in general is letting down students to a certain extent and that secondary education certainly has changed since I graduated from it about a decade ago. However to blame these problems as they are extended to the aviation industry on the generational difference between baby boomers, gen X-ers and gen Y-ers (I prefer the term Nintendo generation... its probably more telling in the casues behind behavioural differences) is moot and shouldn't have to apply in the first place.
It comes back to my point A) in the last post. I honestly believe that the whole point of a flight instructors course is to firmly mould and ENSURE that junior instructors are graduating from their courses with the right attributes and correct attitude that they can take with them forward into their careers.
With the changes to check and training systems that are taking place (things may have changed, I've been out of the industry for a few years now and am not totally up to speed with the CASA *ahem* reforms that are underway) that require check and training pilots to hold flight instructor ratings, is it really going to be acceptable to have new airline pilots being instructed by individuals that have no interest in understanding or striving to develop a culture that values concepts such as "industry best practice" or evidence and rational based procedures. Isn't that one of the main reasons that caused the QF Bangkok overrun all those years ago?
Its funny with the generational thing, I'm technically on the cusp between gen x and gen y and am presently studying nursing with many students that began their tertiary education straight from year 12. Things haven't really changed that much. There are those that want to learn and as a result will learn, those that want to be professionals who will be professionals, those that don't care and won't work.... well they just don't succeed and its plain as day to everyone involved.
In a way I'd agree that the current education system in general is letting down students to a certain extent and that secondary education certainly has changed since I graduated from it about a decade ago. However to blame these problems as they are extended to the aviation industry on the generational difference between baby boomers, gen X-ers and gen Y-ers (I prefer the term Nintendo generation... its probably more telling in the casues behind behavioural differences) is moot and shouldn't have to apply in the first place.
It comes back to my point A) in the last post. I honestly believe that the whole point of a flight instructors course is to firmly mould and ENSURE that junior instructors are graduating from their courses with the right attributes and correct attitude that they can take with them forward into their careers.
With the changes to check and training systems that are taking place (things may have changed, I've been out of the industry for a few years now and am not totally up to speed with the CASA *ahem* reforms that are underway) that require check and training pilots to hold flight instructor ratings, is it really going to be acceptable to have new airline pilots being instructed by individuals that have no interest in understanding or striving to develop a culture that values concepts such as "industry best practice" or evidence and rational based procedures. Isn't that one of the main reasons that caused the QF Bangkok overrun all those years ago?
Its funny with the generational thing, I'm technically on the cusp between gen x and gen y and am presently studying nursing with many students that began their tertiary education straight from year 12. Things haven't really changed that much. There are those that want to learn and as a result will learn, those that want to be professionals who will be professionals, those that don't care and won't work.... well they just don't succeed and its plain as day to everyone involved.
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Gen Y?
I will keep this very short. Generation Y is a term to describe to only a age bracket but a way of thinking, i am guilty of being the typical generation Y member of wanting everything now but unlike allot of the generation Y members i am willing to work hard for it.
Yes i will take your job but i will not only deserve it but i will do it allot better and allot differently.
In my case allot of my desire for wanting to do everything within a short amount of time and to have the luxuries my parents have today comes from the fact like most baby boomer parents my parents have work very hard to allow me to do what i do.
Although i do not fly a huge amount any more i was fortunate enough that my parents gave up a great deal to allow me to learn to fly. I am not ashamed to say my parents paid for a good part of my training, i paid for the odd endorsement when i saved up enough while i was still at school.
Now allot of people love to put me into a basket with the other Generation Y pilots but i am very proud to say my old man and mum gave up allot for me i won't pretend we ever struggled heavily but my parents worked 60 hour weeks to give me what they wanted me to have, the old man hates his job (bricky) and the oldies havn't gone on a holiday for years. I remember a time where they knew they couldnt afford to finish my licence but they still persisted to allow me to finish.
This to me has made me appreciate what they have done for me, if anyone wants to argue this point i would love to debate the fact i have knocked back jobs in other industries just so i can continue to share the investment my parents made in me.
I think allot of it is to do with the whole i want my kids to have a better life then me now this is taking a longer period of time to be able to deliver hence why all the reports about people having kids later on in life.
In reflection yes i too want to give my family a better life then me and that is why i want to have your job.
and yeh i cant spell but i can fix your computer...
Yes i will take your job but i will not only deserve it but i will do it allot better and allot differently.
In my case allot of my desire for wanting to do everything within a short amount of time and to have the luxuries my parents have today comes from the fact like most baby boomer parents my parents have work very hard to allow me to do what i do.
Although i do not fly a huge amount any more i was fortunate enough that my parents gave up a great deal to allow me to learn to fly. I am not ashamed to say my parents paid for a good part of my training, i paid for the odd endorsement when i saved up enough while i was still at school.
Now allot of people love to put me into a basket with the other Generation Y pilots but i am very proud to say my old man and mum gave up allot for me i won't pretend we ever struggled heavily but my parents worked 60 hour weeks to give me what they wanted me to have, the old man hates his job (bricky) and the oldies havn't gone on a holiday for years. I remember a time where they knew they couldnt afford to finish my licence but they still persisted to allow me to finish.
This to me has made me appreciate what they have done for me, if anyone wants to argue this point i would love to debate the fact i have knocked back jobs in other industries just so i can continue to share the investment my parents made in me.
I think allot of it is to do with the whole i want my kids to have a better life then me now this is taking a longer period of time to be able to deliver hence why all the reports about people having kids later on in life.
In reflection yes i too want to give my family a better life then me and that is why i want to have your job.
and yeh i cant spell but i can fix your computer...
Grandpa Aerotart
allot?
Yup your spelling and grammar is definately gen y
It is a constant battle with my 17 year old too..both spelling, grammar and the difference between "I want" and "I need".
As to young instructor bashing?
Once I was a 250 hr instructor...a VERY long time ago. I loved teaching, had good mentors who ensured I knew my stuff and believed I gave good value to my students. In fact between teaching sailing, windsurfing etc I had been 'instructing' since I was 14...and usually adults...so by the time I was instructing in C152s etc I had, in fact, been teaching for 8 or 9 years.
But I stopped 'instructing' after about 60-80 hrs and went to PNG. Thereafter all my instructing has been advanced stuff...ME type ratings, line training and IR stuff...although not in the last few years since leaving corporate and going back to airlines.
Having said all that I do occasionally 'instructor bash'...but I rarely, as far as I am aware, put 'young' in front of it...and I only instructor bash when they dearly deserve it as in the 'full rich' thread.
As far as I am concerned career instructors are not experienced pilots they are experienced teachers. Experience comes from doing a wide variety of flying in a variety of aircraft...not doing the same things over and over again. 1000 hrs of ab initio instruction is 1 hr repeated 1000 times. 1000 hrs of nav training around the standard school routes is 5 hrs repeated 200 times. Clearly this doesn't apply to those instructors who have had a wide and varied GA career between or before instructing...but they are an increasingly rare animal.
Yup your spelling and grammar is definately gen y
It is a constant battle with my 17 year old too..both spelling, grammar and the difference between "I want" and "I need".
As to young instructor bashing?
Once I was a 250 hr instructor...a VERY long time ago. I loved teaching, had good mentors who ensured I knew my stuff and believed I gave good value to my students. In fact between teaching sailing, windsurfing etc I had been 'instructing' since I was 14...and usually adults...so by the time I was instructing in C152s etc I had, in fact, been teaching for 8 or 9 years.
But I stopped 'instructing' after about 60-80 hrs and went to PNG. Thereafter all my instructing has been advanced stuff...ME type ratings, line training and IR stuff...although not in the last few years since leaving corporate and going back to airlines.
Having said all that I do occasionally 'instructor bash'...but I rarely, as far as I am aware, put 'young' in front of it...and I only instructor bash when they dearly deserve it as in the 'full rich' thread.
As far as I am concerned career instructors are not experienced pilots they are experienced teachers. Experience comes from doing a wide variety of flying in a variety of aircraft...not doing the same things over and over again. 1000 hrs of ab initio instruction is 1 hr repeated 1000 times. 1000 hrs of nav training around the standard school routes is 5 hrs repeated 200 times. Clearly this doesn't apply to those instructors who have had a wide and varied GA career between or before instructing...but they are an increasingly rare animal.
Last edited by Chimbu chuckles; 1st Nov 2006 at 07:10.
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Cheers. I think I just need to vent... it happens from time to time not only in this forum but relating to aviation in general 
By over square I mean in an normally aspirated aircraft fitted with a CSU such as a C172RG, C182 etc ensuring that the manifold pressure never be greater than the RPM. ie, climb power should be 24" / 25(00) RPM or 25" / 25(00) RPM, but NEVER (according to some) 26" / 25(00) RPM or 25" / 24(00) RPM or what not. By my reckoning the whole idea of inches of manifold pressure against engine RPM... the numbers are in no way relational yet people constantly swear black and blue that they are *somehow* related and thou shalt above "square" shalt ye nev'er pass.
(Besides, if the POH says full power for take off, and full power gets me 26" and 2550 RPM, then I'm going with that)
cya
By over square I mean in an normally aspirated aircraft fitted with a CSU such as a C172RG, C182 etc ensuring that the manifold pressure never be greater than the RPM. ie, climb power should be 24" / 25(00) RPM or 25" / 25(00) RPM, but NEVER (according to some) 26" / 25(00) RPM or 25" / 24(00) RPM or what not. By my reckoning the whole idea of inches of manifold pressure against engine RPM... the numbers are in no way relational yet people constantly swear black and blue that they are *somehow* related and thou shalt above "square" shalt ye nev'er pass.
(Besides, if the POH says full power for take off, and full power gets me 26" and 2550 RPM, then I'm going with that)
cya
Hasselhof, I'm not sure there's that much bashing of junior instructors as such, but of the system that makes it possible for them to be put in the situation they are.
I think it's a good idea for pilots to go out and experience the operational world for at least a while before coming back to instruct, but obviously the rules as they exist allow people to instruct having hardly left the circuit.
That's not to belittle the good intentions of those inexperienced instructors - I feel sorry for them in that they're asked to act as some kind of guru when they haven't had the chance to get out and do their own learning properly yet.
lk978, this: "Yes i will take your job but i will not only deserve it but i will do it allot better and allot differently." is just silly.
Such an attitude won't get you very far - it's way too arrogant. I'm not saying don't challenge the status quo, but unless you've been in a job for a while and know how it operates, coming in guns blazing like that is just going to get you out the door again real quick.
I think it's a good idea for pilots to go out and experience the operational world for at least a while before coming back to instruct, but obviously the rules as they exist allow people to instruct having hardly left the circuit.
That's not to belittle the good intentions of those inexperienced instructors - I feel sorry for them in that they're asked to act as some kind of guru when they haven't had the chance to get out and do their own learning properly yet.
lk978, this: "Yes i will take your job but i will not only deserve it but i will do it allot better and allot differently." is just silly.
Such an attitude won't get you very far - it's way too arrogant. I'm not saying don't challenge the status quo, but unless you've been in a job for a while and know how it operates, coming in guns blazing like that is just going to get you out the door again real quick.
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As far as I am concerned career instructors are not experienced pilots they are experienced teachers. Experience comes from doing a wide variety of flying in a variety of aircraft...not doing the same things over and over again. 1000 hrs of ab initio instruction is 1 hr repeated 1000 times. 1000 hrs of nav training around the standard school routes is 5 hrs repeated 200 times. Clearly this doesn't apply to those instructors who have had a wide and varied GA career between or before instructing...but they are an increasingly rare animal.
Sorry CC, but I don't think your argument holds much water with such an analogy. I do agree that variety in one's flying career contributes to experience - but to a certain degree, aren't we all doing the same thing over and over? It's just that some of us have the good fortune of being able to do it in bigger and better equipment, that's all.
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Holly Hassel take a chill pill....
Better yet get a Junior pilot and beat them up a little
We were all in your position once, however I still believe FIRMLY that you should not be allowed to instruct until you have 100 hours total time.
The way it is at the present it is a case of the blind leading the blind.
If you don't understand that then maybe your not as switched on as you think
Better yet get a Junior pilot and beat them up a little
We were all in your position once, however I still believe FIRMLY that you should not be allowed to instruct until you have 100 hours total time.
The way it is at the present it is a case of the blind leading the blind.
If you don't understand that then maybe your not as switched on as you think
100 hours total time.
Now I get what the Square thing is. Heard it before, just not that term for it
.Get them to explain how power settings in turbocharged aircraft work then. Thatll F em.
Grandpa Aerotart
bunglerat I agree. A cadet straight into jets will never be an experienced pilot...he will be eventually an experienced widebody pilot and competent within that one discipline....historically though people flying jets flew most everything else on the way up...although that is becoming rarer too.
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Jeeeeez!
With the exception of Chimbu, (who regularly writes interesting and very practical posts). You lot need to get out more! Discover beer and girls! Buy a loud car!
Quit your boring, well articulated poncing and grow a skin!
Mental note to self: Stay away from junior instructor bbqs...
bbbbbbbbbbbbbbbzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzbbbbbbbbbbbbzzzzzzzzzzzzzz zzzzzzzz
With the exception of Chimbu, (who regularly writes interesting and very practical posts). You lot need to get out more! Discover beer and girls! Buy a loud car!
Quit your boring, well articulated poncing and grow a skin!
Mental note to self: Stay away from junior instructor bbqs...
bbbbbbbbbbbbbbbzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzbbbbbbbbbbbbzzzzzzzzzzzzzz zzzzzzzz
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I recently underwent a dual check in a Victa Air Tourer - the instructor, a young lady - was one of the most enthusiastic keen instructors I have had the pleasure to fly with. I queried why she had not furthered her career by going "up north" and picking up twin charter. Her reply was that:
(a) she loved instructing and
(b) she simply could not afford the risk of being unemployed while hanging around airports in the Northern Territory because she was still paying off many thousands of dollars spent on learning to fly, obtaining her instructor and instrument rating and paying for a twin endorsement.
There must be many flying instructors in the same boat - that is paying off astronomical loans. I can only sympathise with them and thank goodness I did not have to pay one cent for my own training in the RAAF.
That said, Chimb Chuckles has a valid point. Time and again I am surprised at the alarming lack of depth in the knowledge of some junior (and senior) instructors. I don't mean in intricate aerodynamics, high speed flight theory and so on. I am talking about basic engine handling, intelligent thoughtful cockpit checks (not just rote Mixture, Master, Mags).
There is no shortage of a wonderful array of aviation information on the internet on engine handling alone. As CC says, the Pprune discussions on mixture handling showed up the deficiencies in what is being taught to ab-initio students alone - let alone CPL and instructor course candidates. There are technical book shops in the capital cities that could blow your brain with good gen - yet despite this wealth of information there are too many pilots in GA that mouth the same old tired myths gained no doubt from their own flying instructors in a never ending circle of mediocracy.
When you have a trainee grade 3 saying that the wing drop on a full flap stall in a C150 depends from which direction the upper air wind is coming from - wind from left - left wing will drop at point of stall - wind from the right - right wing goes down etc - is it any wonder there are some of us who just throw our hands up and say "I'm outta here..."
(a) she loved instructing and
(b) she simply could not afford the risk of being unemployed while hanging around airports in the Northern Territory because she was still paying off many thousands of dollars spent on learning to fly, obtaining her instructor and instrument rating and paying for a twin endorsement.
There must be many flying instructors in the same boat - that is paying off astronomical loans. I can only sympathise with them and thank goodness I did not have to pay one cent for my own training in the RAAF.
That said, Chimb Chuckles has a valid point. Time and again I am surprised at the alarming lack of depth in the knowledge of some junior (and senior) instructors. I don't mean in intricate aerodynamics, high speed flight theory and so on. I am talking about basic engine handling, intelligent thoughtful cockpit checks (not just rote Mixture, Master, Mags).
There is no shortage of a wonderful array of aviation information on the internet on engine handling alone. As CC says, the Pprune discussions on mixture handling showed up the deficiencies in what is being taught to ab-initio students alone - let alone CPL and instructor course candidates. There are technical book shops in the capital cities that could blow your brain with good gen - yet despite this wealth of information there are too many pilots in GA that mouth the same old tired myths gained no doubt from their own flying instructors in a never ending circle of mediocracy.
When you have a trainee grade 3 saying that the wing drop on a full flap stall in a C150 depends from which direction the upper air wind is coming from - wind from left - left wing will drop at point of stall - wind from the right - right wing goes down etc - is it any wonder there are some of us who just throw our hands up and say "I'm outta here..."
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The idea of instructors having a minimum of 1000 hours is an interesting one and it always seems to pop up during these kind of debates. I don't actually have a problem with it as a general concept but there are a couple of flaws that arise. Firstly, why 1000hrs? Why not 2000? Why not 1258.3? Its an arbitrary number that doesn't really reflect much in the way of experience. Requiring instructors to have worked as full time pilots in commercial operations for 18 months would be just as logical a delineation. Also, whats to stop a pilot with 1000hrs total time but 820 hours of that as *ahem* co-pilot in one of these hour building schemes? Or even 1000 hours of scenics along the same route from the same AD with no variations to the experience they've gained.
The big problem is that it would take away a major source of initial employment for hundreds of pilots in a country and industry where it is already hard enough to get a break. If this were to change it would be a sad day for the many juniors that need that first break and are smart, capable and committed individuals.
I was just thinking about who the best and worst 
instructors I've flown with since I began. Its interesting that while the hands down worst instructor I've flown with was a junior grade three with 250 odd hours yet the other two were 15 000 hour + career GA pilots and instructors (one a CFI / CP). These guys were incredibly experienced and what they didn't know about flight probably wasn't worth knowing, however, they couldn't instruct their way out of a wet paper bag, passed on a minimum amount of valuable experience, and when they did it was in a manner that did not encourage me to either learn or want to learn. The best instructors often had similar experience yet were able to make flight training a joy and you would leave the aircraft or briefing room with a desire to get out there and learn some more. In fact, one of the best instructors I've flown with was a grade 2 with just a little under 1000 hours and no charter experience at all.
I've also got a problem with this "blind leading the blind" idea. I'm currently studying in the health field and its incredibly common to find inexperienced teachers out there. I'll admit that its different in that often newly graduated doctors and nurses have more exposure to the latest thinking available during their own education and are best placed to pass this on to the newer crop of students coming up under them. Hell, the other day on my final nursing prac as a third year student I was asked to give an impromptu in service on how to do a particular type of dressing to three clinical nurses whom had, in years, a combined total experience that was over double my own age. Thats not to say that all of my training has been conducted by new graduates, however I see no problem in having an educational staff with varied backgrounds. Junior instructors have limited overall experience sure, but I've no doubt that they are just as capable of teaching the ab initio basic handling stuff as anyone else.
ok, some replies....
Wasn't having a go at you at all, far from it infact. I totally understand the frustrations you were talking about in the other two threads, I feel the same way. Keep up the good posts, more people putting in their useful $0.02 give the rest of us something to think about. I won't always agree... but thats the point. If I come up with good reasons, I'll let you know
Your right, its not bashing per se, but it does give me the ****s. We all learned to fly one way or the other, yet I wonder how many people really knew exactly how much experience their own instructors actually had.
Mate, I understand very well, though we obviously have a difference of opinion. As far as being switched on?? I never said I was
Stay away from our bbq's?!?!?! Are you mad?!?!?! The cucumber sandwiches are to die for and the non-alcoholic sparkling wine is as good as you'll taste anywhere my friend. As for being all articulated, I'm being forced to.... I'm in the process of writing my final assignment for nursing and the topic is "Critical analysis of the impacts of idealogical change in the delivery of indigenous health care during the self-determination policy era" Soon as its finished I'll go grab my cousins '77 Torana, buy a carton of VB and cruise down the Goldy for a perve.. that better?
There are. It sucks and I've got a lot of respect for the ones that do it and put up with the **** not because its a stepping stone, but because despite all the crap its what they want to do. I used to be one of them, but unfortunately there is only so much I would put up with before it just wasn't worth it any more. (Lucky I found something better huh? )
cya
The big problem is that it would take away a major source of initial employment for hundreds of pilots in a country and industry where it is already hard enough to get a break. If this were to change it would be a sad day for the many juniors that need that first break and are smart, capable and committed individuals.
I was just thinking about who the best
and worst instructors I've flown with since I began. Its interesting that while the hands down worst instructor I've flown with was a junior grade three with 250 odd hours yet the other two were 15 000 hour + career GA pilots and instructors (one a CFI / CP). These guys were incredibly experienced and what they didn't know about flight probably wasn't worth knowing, however, they couldn't instruct their way out of a wet paper bag, passed on a minimum amount of valuable experience, and when they did it was in a manner that did not encourage me to either learn or want to learn. The best instructors often had similar experience yet were able to make flight training a joy and you would leave the aircraft or briefing room with a desire to get out there and learn some more. In fact, one of the best instructors I've flown with was a grade 2 with just a little under 1000 hours and no charter experience at all. I've also got a problem with this "blind leading the blind" idea. I'm currently studying in the health field and its incredibly common to find inexperienced teachers out there. I'll admit that its different in that often newly graduated doctors and nurses have more exposure to the latest thinking available during their own education and are best placed to pass this on to the newer crop of students coming up under them. Hell, the other day on my final nursing prac as a third year student I was asked to give an impromptu in service on how to do a particular type of dressing to three clinical nurses whom had, in years, a combined total experience that was over double my own age. Thats not to say that all of my training has been conducted by new graduates, however I see no problem in having an educational staff with varied backgrounds. Junior instructors have limited overall experience sure, but I've no doubt that they are just as capable of teaching the ab initio basic handling stuff as anyone else.
ok, some replies....
CC said: Having said all that I do occasionally 'instructor bash'...but I rarely, as far as I am aware, put 'young' in front of it...and I only instructor bash when they dearly deserve it as in the 'full rich' thread.
tlf said elsewhere: I guess you have to expect that if you take a sprog CPL give him an instructor rating and make him think he's Gods gift to aviation when in reality he/she knows squat!
morno said elsewhere: It probably comes down to the fact that the majority of instructors these days are fresh CPL's who are too scared to lean the thing themselves, so they don't teach others properly!!
Arm out the Window said: Hasselhof, I'm not sure there's that much bashing of junior instructors as such, but of the system that makes it possible for them to be put in the situation they are.
The way it is at the present it is a case of the blind leading the blind.
If you don't understand that then maybe your not as switched on as you think
If you don't understand that then maybe your not as switched on as you think
You lot need to get out more! Discover beer and girls! Buy a loud car!
Quit your boring, well articulated poncing and grow a skin!
Mental note to self: Stay away from junior instructor bbqs...
Quit your boring, well articulated poncing and grow a skin!
Mental note to self: Stay away from junior instructor bbqs...
A37575 said: There must be many flying instructors in the same boat - that is paying off astronomical loans. I can only sympathise with them
)cya
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CC.....mate ,you do more "Airbus Bashing" than a bull can ****e...
Hassel .....maaaaaaaaaaaate!!! water off a ducks back.....like you say ..its all about attitude/.......didnt do a lot of single instructing ,but a lot of twin stuff,402,s,twin otters,seneca.s, etc......always got a kick out of the 'heavy" boys,usually 747 pukes wanting to rent a twin to take the hosties for a sceneic run ....and then maybe get a little "slap and tickle" afterwards for their efforts...........
Luckily these wallys had deep pockets as they all busted their intail runs due to the fact that their egos got ahead of the actual flying skills.....and then most of them paid you off not to say anything.
Bottom line,instucters(ones with good attitudes) are worth their weight in gold,and if you are going to let attitudes of others "get to you" then your in the wrong buiness.....Ifly the A320 to pay the bills,but part-own a 185
.....every 2 years I take a young fella,for my bi-anal and have him show me the tricks.....its an absolute blast.....who ****es themself first, buys the tucker and tinnes.... .....stick with it mate,and enjoy the ride..........buzzzzzz..you brown-noser......PB
Hassel .....maaaaaaaaaaaate!!! water off a ducks back.....like you say ..its all about attitude/.......didnt do a lot of single instructing ,but a lot of twin stuff,402,s,twin otters,seneca.s, etc......always got a kick out of the 'heavy" boys,usually 747 pukes wanting to rent a twin to take the hosties for a sceneic run ....and then maybe get a little "slap and tickle" afterwards for their efforts...........
Luckily these wallys had deep pockets as they all busted their intail runs due to the fact that their egos got ahead of the actual flying skills.....and then most of them paid you off not to say anything.
Bottom line,instucters(ones with good attitudes) are worth their weight in gold,and if you are going to let attitudes of others "get to you" then your in the wrong buiness.....Ifly the A320 to pay the bills,but part-own a 185
.....every 2 years I take a young fella,for my bi-anal and have him show me the tricks.....its an absolute blast.....who ****es themself first, buys the tucker and tinnes.... .....stick with it mate,and enjoy the ride..........buzzzzzz..you brown-noser......PB
Last edited by pakeha-boy; 1st Nov 2006 at 15:03.
Grandpa Aerotart
CC.....mate ,you do more "Airbus Bashing" than a bull can ****e...
Just calls it as I sees it How is that Stockholm syndrome going?
I believe large doses of Vitamim B (any model
) cures it
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[QUOTE=Chimbu chuckles;2940622] Just calls it as I sees it
How is that Stockholm syndrome going?
...mate...you have to take that patch off your left eye......this stockholm thing......yeah mate,Ive been there....good place too!!!! only I needed penicillin for the syndrome I got..........
Just calls it as I sees it How is that Stockholm syndrome going?
...mate...you have to take that patch off your left eye......this stockholm thing......yeah mate,Ive been there....good place too!!!! only I needed penicillin for the syndrome I got..........
