Cheapest 4 seater Single for Hire in Melbourne?
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Chimbu Chuckles:
Slight correction.
I'm looking into the Cirrus either new or used.
Cirrus Maint. Manual limits the aircraft to 12,000 hours.
Cirrus told me that at 12,000 hours, a comprehensive inspection in place will extend the aircraft another 6,000 hours. It is anticipated that at 18,000 an additional inspection will be in place for a further 3,000 hours and so on.
The Cirrus factory apparently has an SR20 with close to 10,000 hours on it. The aircraft is used at the Cirrus in-house Flight School for their production staff (US$40 hr for lessons!).
Slight correction.
Interestingly Cirrus are certified under FAR 23 so are LIMITED to a 10000 hr life and then are junked, no matter what...
Cirrus Maint. Manual limits the aircraft to 12,000 hours.
Cirrus told me that at 12,000 hours, a comprehensive inspection in place will extend the aircraft another 6,000 hours. It is anticipated that at 18,000 an additional inspection will be in place for a further 3,000 hours and so on.
The Cirrus factory apparently has an SR20 with close to 10,000 hours on it. The aircraft is used at the Cirrus in-house Flight School for their production staff (US$40 hr for lessons!).
Last edited by Rich-Fine-Green; 21st Oct 2006 at 00:48.
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Im guna have to email this link to some friends bwahahahahah
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grammar and spelling police. ...mate, there's always one on evey web discussion board I'm on. They often only use this against you when all other ammunition (read argumentative points) have been exhausted. Can't attack the issues? I'll attack the poster's typing and grammar instead, lol!
BTW, what was the question again?
BTW, what was the question again?
Grandpa Aerotart
RFG that's interesting...I was recently reading an article about aging aircraft issues in my ABS mag and they most definately suggested that FAR23 had the 10K limit imposed...I will have to go back, re read it, and make sure I understood the context.
I think the Cirrus aircraft are quite sexy...although I am not sure I like the BRS...I wonder what impact that has on Insurance...pull that lever and you have just trashed the airframe.
I would suggest pilots will (have?) replace good airmanship decisions with "Oh well if worse comes to worst I can pull the chute" or VFR pilots will be tempted to punch through weather they are not skilled enough to handle/understand because the fast glass and 55x autopilot "can do it all".
I know that sounds like a argument against technology and I don't mean it that way...the latest revolution in glass cockpits, coupled autopilots and GPss has put SO MUCH information and capability in front of private pilots it's probably akin to the mode confusion and unreasonable reliance on automation that airbus first introduced into the market for airline pilots. A whole new skill set and discipline is required to use it safely to anything like it's optimum...and that skill set is still being defined and even when it is PPLs spread all over the place will be a lot harder to inculcate than smallish groups of airline pilots responding to training department edicts.
I think the Cirrus aircraft are quite sexy...although I am not sure I like the BRS...I wonder what impact that has on Insurance...pull that lever and you have just trashed the airframe.
I would suggest pilots will (have?) replace good airmanship decisions with "Oh well if worse comes to worst I can pull the chute" or VFR pilots will be tempted to punch through weather they are not skilled enough to handle/understand because the fast glass and 55x autopilot "can do it all".
I know that sounds like a argument against technology and I don't mean it that way...the latest revolution in glass cockpits, coupled autopilots and GPss has put SO MUCH information and capability in front of private pilots it's probably akin to the mode confusion and unreasonable reliance on automation that airbus first introduced into the market for airline pilots. A whole new skill set and discipline is required to use it safely to anything like it's optimum...and that skill set is still being defined and even when it is PPLs spread all over the place will be a lot harder to inculcate than smallish groups of airline pilots responding to training department edicts.
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CC:
I have tried to research as much as I can (have been accused of being A***).
The Cirrus MM copy I have lists a 12,000 hour limit (was 4,000 at certification in 1998). My question to Cirrus was the same: Trash or Inspect?. The answer was Inspect. Similar to the new Commander 114, Columbia etc. All have an inspection process. Not just Cirrus.
As for Insurance; As long as the owner/operator/nominated Pilots undertake the Cirrus Factory Course in Brisbane, the rates are really good. Except the hull is AUD$500k for an SR22!. On a $ basis, I'm sure an older Bonanza pays less but the percentage may be more.
It was suggested to me that for an Insurance company, the cheapest part of their risk is the hull. The expensive parts are dead/maimed Pilot & Pax and ground damage (i.e. hit a NYC Apartment building).
Assuming the parachute was deployed, history has now shown that the occupants of a Cirrus will most likely survive. Also, a vertical descent with no forward speed will minimise property damage. therefore, Insurance companies apparently are more comfortable.
I understand Insurance companies are now really concerned about used Cirrus ownership and rentals. This is where rates may be high as many Cirrus Pilot are slipping through the factory training net.
As for VFR Pilots tempted to punch into weather when strapped to a Cirrus; You are quite right!. A search of the US NTSB web lists several Cirrus on VFR plans slamming into 'Cumulus Granitus'. No chute was pulled, they wouldn't have known.....
I have tried to research as much as I can (have been accused of being A***).
The Cirrus MM copy I have lists a 12,000 hour limit (was 4,000 at certification in 1998). My question to Cirrus was the same: Trash or Inspect?. The answer was Inspect. Similar to the new Commander 114, Columbia etc. All have an inspection process. Not just Cirrus.
As for Insurance; As long as the owner/operator/nominated Pilots undertake the Cirrus Factory Course in Brisbane, the rates are really good. Except the hull is AUD$500k for an SR22!. On a $ basis, I'm sure an older Bonanza pays less but the percentage may be more.
It was suggested to me that for an Insurance company, the cheapest part of their risk is the hull. The expensive parts are dead/maimed Pilot & Pax and ground damage (i.e. hit a NYC Apartment building).
Assuming the parachute was deployed, history has now shown that the occupants of a Cirrus will most likely survive. Also, a vertical descent with no forward speed will minimise property damage. therefore, Insurance companies apparently are more comfortable.
I understand Insurance companies are now really concerned about used Cirrus ownership and rentals. This is where rates may be high as many Cirrus Pilot are slipping through the factory training net.
As for VFR Pilots tempted to punch into weather when strapped to a Cirrus; You are quite right!. A search of the US NTSB web lists several Cirrus on VFR plans slamming into 'Cumulus Granitus'. No chute was pulled, they wouldn't have known.....
Grandpa Aerotart
It was suggested to me that for an Insurance company, the cheapest part of their risk is the hull. The expensive parts are dead/maimed Pilot & Pax and ground damage
understand Insurance companies are now really concerned about used Cirrus ownership and rentals. This is where rates may be high as many Cirrus Pilot are slipping through the factory training net.
I think the combination of modern pilot training initial and recurrent standards and advanced technolgy like that displayed in the Cirrus, and the G36 for that matter, is a recipe for potential trouble. To some extent the airlines have 'got away' with replacing experience with technology, so far at least...most of the time
This will NOT work in GA.
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CC:
I would not object to cheaper insurance rates being linked to safety courses;
Cirrus Flight Centre, Bonanza Society, etc. all have approved courses. Annual recurrent training for cheaper insurance can include the VFR/BFR or BFR/IFR renewal.
Can't see how insurance companies would not go for it. If they were to be pro-active, the insurance companies should kick-in a few shillings as well.
I think the combination of modern pilot training initial and recurrent standards and advanced technolgy like that displayed in the Cirrus, and the G36 for that matter, is a recipe for potential trouble. To some extent the airlines have 'got away' with replacing experience with technology, so far at least...most of the time
Cirrus Flight Centre, Bonanza Society, etc. all have approved courses. Annual recurrent training for cheaper insurance can include the VFR/BFR or BFR/IFR renewal.
Can't see how insurance companies would not go for it. If they were to be pro-active, the insurance companies should kick-in a few shillings as well.
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...............& the original question was here everybody????............something about where's the cheapest A/C for hire in ML..............it's been answered by some that know & to all the others that either own an A/C (which I did once but got wise) or are seriously bitching about their cost I say.................accept it, we all do at the fuel bowser when we fill our cars up there's zip we can do about that !!
...................rent................far cheaper than owning..............'cause at the end of the day when the fly day/night is over it's nice to hand the A/C back & sleep at night fully knowing that the days hire cost is all it will cost you !:-)
Capt wally :-)
...................rent................far cheaper than owning..............'cause at the end of the day when the fly day/night is over it's nice to hand the A/C back & sleep at night fully knowing that the days hire cost is all it will cost you !:-)
Capt wally :-)
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Got to agree with CC here,
I own 2 of the things (one antique for fun/shows, one family wagon), and sure as hell won't go to the grave wondering "what if?" - even if it is a paupers grave and an cardboard coffin (i'll let my Kids decide!)
I'll bet money that the pro-rental naysayers here don't all restrict themselves to a 1985 Suzuki Mighty-Boy, wear only Maoist robes or not own a TV or mobile.....
Point being, we KNOW its not 'economically rational' to own, but by god (or God depending on your views), when I fly with my family (especially IFR) its good to know that ONLY I ever fly the plane, and that everything works as it should. There's no chewing gum lurking under the seats, all the maint. is up-to-date, and I know every little nuance of the engine note, need for ground-leaning, etc. And when I am in the soup, FAMILIARITY with my systems is my best buddy.
It's a lifestyle choice. I have no argument whatsoever with those who prefer to rent (any flying is better than none), but don't dump on / criticise those who chose to / can own.
Big breath out..................
I own 2 of the things (one antique for fun/shows, one family wagon), and sure as hell won't go to the grave wondering "what if?" - even if it is a paupers grave and an cardboard coffin (i'll let my Kids decide!)
I'll bet money that the pro-rental naysayers here don't all restrict themselves to a 1985 Suzuki Mighty-Boy, wear only Maoist robes or not own a TV or mobile.....
Point being, we KNOW its not 'economically rational' to own, but by god (or God depending on your views), when I fly with my family (especially IFR) its good to know that ONLY I ever fly the plane, and that everything works as it should. There's no chewing gum lurking under the seats, all the maint. is up-to-date, and I know every little nuance of the engine note, need for ground-leaning, etc. And when I am in the soup, FAMILIARITY with my systems is my best buddy.
It's a lifestyle choice. I have no argument whatsoever with those who prefer to rent (any flying is better than none), but don't dump on / criticise those who chose to / can own.
Big breath out..................
There are sound financial reasons for owning an aircraft.
Let me tell you a little story.
Many years ago my friends and I used to ski in winter and mess around in boats in summer. One guy I knew took a real interest in a sleepy little coastal town about five hours drive from here. It was (still is) a gem of a place, the only problem being the five hour drive and the real estate prices.
Anyway there is this low scrubby island across the water from the town and about fifty or so acres of it were for sale. My mate decided he wanted to buy this block. We did everything we could to dissuade him. The usual argument being a five hour drive, then transporting everything plus kids into his boat (which cost him money to keep in the Marina.) then a thirty minute choppy ride across the water, then the same at the other end, twice a weekend.
We thought he was nuts, so did the real estate agent, he bought the land for a song.
Anyway he barged an old fergie tractor over and an old house, and you guessed it, landed his aircraft and taxied it to his own back door.
Net result - one hour flight with wife and kids to the weekender instead of five hour drive. His boat sitting there to take him into town when he wanted to. Total cost? Much less than paying a premium for coastal property at fashionable places within a few hours of a capital city.
One of these days I hope to emulate him. My experience is that the two or three hour drives to and from a weekend getaway property takes the gloss off it real fast.
Many years ago my friends and I used to ski in winter and mess around in boats in summer. One guy I knew took a real interest in a sleepy little coastal town about five hours drive from here. It was (still is) a gem of a place, the only problem being the five hour drive and the real estate prices.
Anyway there is this low scrubby island across the water from the town and about fifty or so acres of it were for sale. My mate decided he wanted to buy this block. We did everything we could to dissuade him. The usual argument being a five hour drive, then transporting everything plus kids into his boat (which cost him money to keep in the Marina.) then a thirty minute choppy ride across the water, then the same at the other end, twice a weekend.
We thought he was nuts, so did the real estate agent, he bought the land for a song.
Anyway he barged an old fergie tractor over and an old house, and you guessed it, landed his aircraft and taxied it to his own back door.
Net result - one hour flight with wife and kids to the weekender instead of five hour drive. His boat sitting there to take him into town when he wanted to. Total cost? Much less than paying a premium for coastal property at fashionable places within a few hours of a capital city.
One of these days I hope to emulate him. My experience is that the two or three hour drives to and from a weekend getaway property takes the gloss off it real fast.
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I know this is an old thread, and I dont mean to bump it. But last year YBDG was charging $110 solo for their PA28's. Then recently at the start of this year they were charging $170 solo, and now they have just recently jumped up to $200 per hour. I guess its because of the rising fuel prices, Oh well.... Its not like in the US where places charge as little as $90 per hour. Supply n demand too.
I guess its because of the rising fuel prices, Oh well.... Its not like in the US where places charge as little as $90 per hour. Supply n demand too.
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Its not like in the US where places charge as little as $90 per hour.
With lower airport costs and charges, lower compliance costs, lower maintenance costs, cheaper fuel........
Bevan666, 
spot on mate. The market decides the cost of hire and if I charge less than an aircraft is costing me to operate then I am either very generous or extremely naive. Many operators who find themsleves in financial strife usually fall into the second category.
spot on mate. The market decides the cost of hire and if I charge less than an aircraft is costing me to operate then I am either very generous or extremely naive. Many operators who find themsleves in financial strife usually fall into the second category.
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You want a real laugh go check out OAA a/c hire rates.
They have massive overheads hence the price but some of them were well over $100 more for the same type at other venues in mb.
They have massive overheads hence the price but some of them were well over $100 more for the same type at other venues in mb.