Cheapest 4 seater Single for Hire in Melbourne?
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Damn..........let that slip through.
Still,,,,,,,,,I think you could use a spell checker too.
And I don't agree with the tone of your posts either. As pointed out by Rat**** the actual cost of flying hasn't gone up more than anything else.
grammar
grammar
grammar
grammar
maybe I meant grandma?
Still,,,,,,,,,I think you could use a spell checker too.
And I don't agree with the tone of your posts either. As pointed out by Rat**** the actual cost of flying hasn't gone up more than anything else.
grammar
grammar
grammar
grammar
maybe I meant grandma?
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chicksdigpilots
When was the last time you were successful in demanding a discount for the petrol you put in your car above the 4c Coles or Woolworths discount? When was the last time you were successful in getting your car rego reduced by the DMT? When was the last time you were successful in getting a discount on your CTP green slip? This is to name just a few. Aviation is no different and quite frankly the Australian industry isn’t big enough to make much of a difference even if it was united. The American industry is and flexes its muscle but still has its cost problems. Scales of economy at work.
By the way don’t debate the man. Debate the topic. I pointed out my credentials because of the tone of your debate, not to impress you. The only person I need to impress in this world is Mrs Titan.
When was the last time you were successful in demanding a discount for the petrol you put in your car above the 4c Coles or Woolworths discount? When was the last time you were successful in getting your car rego reduced by the DMT? When was the last time you were successful in getting a discount on your CTP green slip? This is to name just a few. Aviation is no different and quite frankly the Australian industry isn’t big enough to make much of a difference even if it was united. The American industry is and flexes its muscle but still has its cost problems. Scales of economy at work.
By the way don’t debate the man. Debate the topic. I pointed out my credentials because of the tone of your debate, not to impress you. The only person I need to impress in this world is Mrs Titan.
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chicksdigpilots
When was the last time you were successful in demanding a discount for the petrol you put in your car above the 4c Coles or Woolworths discount? When was the last time you were successful in getting your car rego reduced by the DMT? When was the last time you were successful in getting a discount on your CTP green slip? This is to name just a few. Aviation is no different and quite frankly the Australian industry isn’t big enough to make much of a difference even if it was united. The American industry is and flexes its muscle but still has its cost problems. Scales of economy at work.
By the way don’t debate the man. Debate the topic. I pointed out my credentials because of the tone of your debate, not to impress you. The only person I need to impress in this world is Mrs Titan.
When was the last time you were successful in demanding a discount for the petrol you put in your car above the 4c Coles or Woolworths discount? When was the last time you were successful in getting your car rego reduced by the DMT? When was the last time you were successful in getting a discount on your CTP green slip? This is to name just a few. Aviation is no different and quite frankly the Australian industry isn’t big enough to make much of a difference even if it was united. The American industry is and flexes its muscle but still has its cost problems. Scales of economy at work.
By the way don’t debate the man. Debate the topic. I pointed out my credentials because of the tone of your debate, not to impress you. The only person I need to impress in this world is Mrs Titan.
I don't want to be the best pilot in the world - Just the oldest
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I wonder if it will be same pilots who complain about the high cost of aircraft hire and training who then whinge about the crap wages and outdated machines they have to fly when they get their fist flying job?
just a thought.
just a thought.
Grandpa Aerotart
chixdigpilots...you appear to me to be very young and naive...but I am occassionally wrong....maybe you're jut thick
GA flying is less affordable today than 30 years ago for exactly the reasons rat**** alludes to. Real wages have been going backwards since 1972...and I want you to understand this point...mr and mrs average have NOT had a payrise in real terms since 1972. They can thank the politicians for that.
As someone said above I own my own aeroplane...a Bonanza. I will stress the word own...as in outright...no bank loan. It's a wonderful 1970 model...one of those old pieces of junk you alluded to.
The difference between mine and a 2006 model is;
12v vs 24v electrical system
analog vs glass cockpit.
It cost about 25% of the cost of a new one.
That's it. Anything else like leather seats etc is just cosmetic stuff which I can have at a cost when I redo the interior. The engine, prop and airframe are near identical.
Why?
Not because Beechcraft are too lazy to develope the airframe further but because the airframe is near perfect to begin with. People whinge that there has been next to no engine developement since WW2...that is because from a power output/weight vs cost point of view there has not needed to be huge change...and to suggest there has been 'no' developement from Continental or Lycoming is BS anyway...they may look the same but in all sorts of less obvious ways an engine produced in 2006 is not the same engine that that rolled off the production line 30 years ago. Diesel technology is coming and very interesting...but it is yet to be proven that it will be more economical overall.
I am going to use a Cirrus/Bonanza comparison because a Cirrus is aimed at the same market...'luxury' point to point personal travel.
Any metal aeroplane is very labour intensive to build compared to a 'plastic aeroplane'. That is the main reason why a Cirrus costs 500k compared to a Bonanza costing double that...Cirrus' get popped out of a mold the way a boat does.
Cirruses have the same engine/prop/instrumentation that you find in a modern Bonanza...IO550b/3 bladed blac mac or scimitar and Garmin fast glass. The only modern thing about a Cirrus is essentially the airframe construction...and there is no evidence that it is better than metal it is just cheaper to build than metal...it remains to be seen whether it is more maintainable over time.
Interestingly Cirrus are certified under FAR 23 so are LIMITED to a 10000 hr life and then are junked, no matter what...Bonanzas built before a certain year are certified under CAR 3 and have no life limits. I will be very surprised if many Cirruses make 10000 hrs anyway. There are 1000s of Bonanzas flying today with more than 10000 TT airframe and in better condition today than when they had 5000 TT...mine has 7300 TT and is in all respects in vastly better shape than when I bought it...no reason at all it won't be still flying in another 7300 airframe hrs..and importantly it will still be as economical, compared to any new aeroplane, as it is today.
Cirrus also benefits from the changes in tort law that limited product liability suits in the 90s...after they stopped virtually all light aircraft manufacter in the mid 80s.
It wasn't the only thing that stopped light aircraft production in the 80s...in fact it probably only hastened the suspension of production...the MASSIVE over production of light aircraft in the 50s, 60s and 70s so flooded the market with good aeroplanes that it was innevitable that production would collapse at some point....supply and demand...go back and read what I wrote about real wage decline over the last 35 odd years.
Now lets look at what it really costs to run a Bonanza and Cirrus. As I said they are very similar in most respects...engine, prop etc...if an owner wants to spend 100k on fast glass so be it...I view glass cockpit SE pistons as little more than a gimmic.
Engine/prop overhaul costs will be identical.
Radio/instrumentation maintenance will be close too...perhaps a little more in a Cirrus with fast glass.
Hangarage the same.
Airways/landing fees the same.
Annual maintenance should be cheaper for the Cirrus.
Insurance will be much higher...close to double for the Cirrus.
Capital cost...at least double for the Cirrus.
Running costs for any aircraft are divided into two areas.
Fixed costs...those costs associated with aircraft ownership which don't change whether the aircraft flies or not...bank repayments, hangarage, insurance, annual inspections.
Direct Operating Costs...fuel/oil, engine, prop overhaul etc.
I think it is smarter to think about total costs instead of an hourly rate...because annual utilisation is a very nebulous thing...it varies wildly from aircraft to aircraft and is nearly never as high as owners expect/hope for.
My last Insurance renewal a few weeks ago was $6500...note 20% of that was TAXES made up of $450 in stamp duty and a similar amount of GST including GST on my fecking stamp duty.
Annual maintenance runs around the same....with 10% being GST.
Hangarage is roughly $3000/yr...10% of which is GST.
Note aviation/aircraft NEVER ATTRACTED TAXES like stamp duty and sales tax etc...so all that GST money the fecking politicians are collecting is money for nothing...not to mention that stamp duty was supposed to dissappear when GST was introduced...who said politicians can't lie straight in bed?
Total fixed costs/maintenance probably average around $15000/annum.
Direct operating costs vary a bit with fuel cost but call it $120/hr.
The way I look at aircraft ownership hour 1 each year costs all my fixed costs + DOC.
So hour 1 costs roughly $15120.
Every hour thereafter costs $120.
Now if I was to trade in my Bo for a Cirrus
I would be saddled with a capital cost (loan) of say 350k. For arguments sake lets say that represents $3500/mth in repayments.
My Bo is insured for 200k...Insurance on the Currus would go up by at least double. DOCs would be the same...annual maintenance might come down to perhaps $3000.
Now my first hour each year would cost at least $60120.
And for that I would get an aeroplane that carries less just a few kts faster
And think about the depreciation of the new Cirrus, or any new aircraft...the depreciation in the first 3 years or so on a new Cirrus would be not far off what my aeroplane is worth in total.
Now if you want an hourly rate divide those fixed costs by whatever you think is a fair thing....note that average annual utilisation on private aircraft runs between 50 and 100 hrs...and then add the DOCs.
My aircraft does around that...say 100 hrs between my useage and the aeroclubs...that comes to $270/hr.
Your new Cirrus would be closer to $720/hr assuming privately owned the same as my Bo.
It should be obvious that annual utilisation has a huge impact on hourly rates...as a rough guide add $20/hr for every extra 100 hrs/year for the extra maintenance in a Bonanza class aeroplane.
If my Bo did 200 hrs/yr that would make it around $230/hr total to operate and the Cirrus about $470.
My Bo has averaged 200 hrs/yr for it's whole life but would not have averaged half that since I have owned it. At a guess i would say that 75% of its airframe TT were logged in the first 15-20 years of it's life.
Is it good value?
Rather depends on your perspective. When I look at my Bo the hair stands up on the back of my neck. I can throw my family in it, or a hirer can, and travel interstate for say $1000-$1500 return. Add up what airfares, hire cars, travel time and agravation from idiots wanting to take your nail clippers and remove your shoes would cost for 2-4 people.
I often fly with my daughter (only family member) from Brissy (Redcliffe) to Mittagong where my father lives. 2.5 hrs wheels up to landing 10 minutes from my dad's house as opposed to 2.5 hrs from leaving house to boarding a VB aircraft followed by 1.4 to landing in YSSY, then 30 minutes to collect bags and get out to a car, either a hire car or Dad drove in 2 hrs to meet us, and then 2 hrs to drive to Mittagaong.
The catering on my aircraft is better and cheaper...no feckwit wants to search my bags or for me to take my shoes off...it takes me 1/3rd the time and it costs roughly the same if I include total running cost of my aircraft...ignoring the occassional 'deals' VB/QF run which you can never seem to get when you want to travel. Speaking of which I travel at a whim as opposed to booking weeks in advance...if you compare what my aeroplane costs to walking in and saying to VB/QF I want to go to Sydney/Melbourne NOW my aeroplane wins hands down.
And that is ignoring the % of my annual costs that crosshiring to the aeroclub covers.
If I put the Fixed costs down as 'the cost of ownership' and the DOCs as the incremental cost of flying the aircraft then A-B in my Bo is so much cheaper and better than airline travel it simply beggars belief.
Now tell me aircraft hire is too expensive....or that new aeroplanes would make it cheaper for the average pilot
GA flying is less affordable today than 30 years ago for exactly the reasons rat**** alludes to. Real wages have been going backwards since 1972...and I want you to understand this point...mr and mrs average have NOT had a payrise in real terms since 1972. They can thank the politicians for that.
As someone said above I own my own aeroplane...a Bonanza. I will stress the word own...as in outright...no bank loan. It's a wonderful 1970 model...one of those old pieces of junk you alluded to.
The difference between mine and a 2006 model is;
12v vs 24v electrical system
analog vs glass cockpit.
It cost about 25% of the cost of a new one.
That's it. Anything else like leather seats etc is just cosmetic stuff which I can have at a cost when I redo the interior. The engine, prop and airframe are near identical.
Why?
Not because Beechcraft are too lazy to develope the airframe further but because the airframe is near perfect to begin with. People whinge that there has been next to no engine developement since WW2...that is because from a power output/weight vs cost point of view there has not needed to be huge change...and to suggest there has been 'no' developement from Continental or Lycoming is BS anyway...they may look the same but in all sorts of less obvious ways an engine produced in 2006 is not the same engine that that rolled off the production line 30 years ago. Diesel technology is coming and very interesting...but it is yet to be proven that it will be more economical overall.
I am going to use a Cirrus/Bonanza comparison because a Cirrus is aimed at the same market...'luxury' point to point personal travel.
Any metal aeroplane is very labour intensive to build compared to a 'plastic aeroplane'. That is the main reason why a Cirrus costs 500k compared to a Bonanza costing double that...Cirrus' get popped out of a mold the way a boat does.
Cirruses have the same engine/prop/instrumentation that you find in a modern Bonanza...IO550b/3 bladed blac mac or scimitar and Garmin fast glass. The only modern thing about a Cirrus is essentially the airframe construction...and there is no evidence that it is better than metal it is just cheaper to build than metal...it remains to be seen whether it is more maintainable over time.
Interestingly Cirrus are certified under FAR 23 so are LIMITED to a 10000 hr life and then are junked, no matter what...Bonanzas built before a certain year are certified under CAR 3 and have no life limits. I will be very surprised if many Cirruses make 10000 hrs anyway. There are 1000s of Bonanzas flying today with more than 10000 TT airframe and in better condition today than when they had 5000 TT...mine has 7300 TT and is in all respects in vastly better shape than when I bought it...no reason at all it won't be still flying in another 7300 airframe hrs..and importantly it will still be as economical, compared to any new aeroplane, as it is today.
Cirrus also benefits from the changes in tort law that limited product liability suits in the 90s...after they stopped virtually all light aircraft manufacter in the mid 80s.
It wasn't the only thing that stopped light aircraft production in the 80s...in fact it probably only hastened the suspension of production...the MASSIVE over production of light aircraft in the 50s, 60s and 70s so flooded the market with good aeroplanes that it was innevitable that production would collapse at some point....supply and demand...go back and read what I wrote about real wage decline over the last 35 odd years.
Now lets look at what it really costs to run a Bonanza and Cirrus. As I said they are very similar in most respects...engine, prop etc...if an owner wants to spend 100k on fast glass so be it...I view glass cockpit SE pistons as little more than a gimmic.
Engine/prop overhaul costs will be identical.
Radio/instrumentation maintenance will be close too...perhaps a little more in a Cirrus with fast glass.
Hangarage the same.
Airways/landing fees the same.
Annual maintenance should be cheaper for the Cirrus.
Insurance will be much higher...close to double for the Cirrus.
Capital cost...at least double for the Cirrus.
Running costs for any aircraft are divided into two areas.
Fixed costs...those costs associated with aircraft ownership which don't change whether the aircraft flies or not...bank repayments, hangarage, insurance, annual inspections.
Direct Operating Costs...fuel/oil, engine, prop overhaul etc.
I think it is smarter to think about total costs instead of an hourly rate...because annual utilisation is a very nebulous thing...it varies wildly from aircraft to aircraft and is nearly never as high as owners expect/hope for.
My last Insurance renewal a few weeks ago was $6500...note 20% of that was TAXES made up of $450 in stamp duty and a similar amount of GST including GST on my fecking stamp duty.
Annual maintenance runs around the same....with 10% being GST.
Hangarage is roughly $3000/yr...10% of which is GST.
Note aviation/aircraft NEVER ATTRACTED TAXES like stamp duty and sales tax etc...so all that GST money the fecking politicians are collecting is money for nothing...not to mention that stamp duty was supposed to dissappear when GST was introduced...who said politicians can't lie straight in bed?
Total fixed costs/maintenance probably average around $15000/annum.
Direct operating costs vary a bit with fuel cost but call it $120/hr.
The way I look at aircraft ownership hour 1 each year costs all my fixed costs + DOC.
So hour 1 costs roughly $15120.
Every hour thereafter costs $120.
Now if I was to trade in my Bo for a Cirrus
I would be saddled with a capital cost (loan) of say 350k. For arguments sake lets say that represents $3500/mth in repayments. My Bo is insured for 200k...Insurance on the Currus would go up by at least double. DOCs would be the same...annual maintenance might come down to perhaps $3000.
Now my first hour each year would cost at least $60120.
And for that I would get an aeroplane that carries less just a few kts faster
And think about the depreciation of the new Cirrus, or any new aircraft...the depreciation in the first 3 years or so on a new Cirrus would be not far off what my aeroplane is worth in total.
Now if you want an hourly rate divide those fixed costs by whatever you think is a fair thing....note that average annual utilisation on private aircraft runs between 50 and 100 hrs...and then add the DOCs.
My aircraft does around that...say 100 hrs between my useage and the aeroclubs...that comes to $270/hr.
Your new Cirrus would be closer to $720/hr assuming privately owned the same as my Bo.
It should be obvious that annual utilisation has a huge impact on hourly rates...as a rough guide add $20/hr for every extra 100 hrs/year for the extra maintenance in a Bonanza class aeroplane.
If my Bo did 200 hrs/yr that would make it around $230/hr total to operate and the Cirrus about $470.
My Bo has averaged 200 hrs/yr for it's whole life but would not have averaged half that since I have owned it. At a guess i would say that 75% of its airframe TT were logged in the first 15-20 years of it's life.
Is it good value?
Rather depends on your perspective. When I look at my Bo the hair stands up on the back of my neck. I can throw my family in it, or a hirer can, and travel interstate for say $1000-$1500 return. Add up what airfares, hire cars, travel time and agravation from idiots wanting to take your nail clippers and remove your shoes would cost for 2-4 people.
I often fly with my daughter (only family member) from Brissy (Redcliffe) to Mittagong where my father lives. 2.5 hrs wheels up to landing 10 minutes from my dad's house as opposed to 2.5 hrs from leaving house to boarding a VB aircraft followed by 1.4 to landing in YSSY, then 30 minutes to collect bags and get out to a car, either a hire car or Dad drove in 2 hrs to meet us, and then 2 hrs to drive to Mittagaong.
The catering on my aircraft is better and cheaper...no feckwit wants to search my bags or for me to take my shoes off...it takes me 1/3rd the time and it costs roughly the same if I include total running cost of my aircraft...ignoring the occassional 'deals' VB/QF run which you can never seem to get when you want to travel. Speaking of which I travel at a whim as opposed to booking weeks in advance...if you compare what my aeroplane costs to walking in and saying to VB/QF I want to go to Sydney/Melbourne NOW my aeroplane wins hands down.
And that is ignoring the % of my annual costs that crosshiring to the aeroclub covers.
If I put the Fixed costs down as 'the cost of ownership' and the DOCs as the incremental cost of flying the aircraft then A-B in my Bo is so much cheaper and better than airline travel it simply beggars belief.
Now tell me aircraft hire is too expensive....or that new aeroplanes would make it cheaper for the average pilot
Last edited by Chimbu chuckles; 19th Oct 2006 at 08:56.
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Spot on Chimba, our TB-20 costs AU$180.00 wet per hour direct to us. I think that the average aeroclub 172 should be around the 200 - 220 wet per hour.
Given that my normal run (300nm) will take under two hours in the Trinny, 7 hours by road and 3.5 by Quaintarse (I live 100km from the city airport) I think I'm in front!
NAP
Given that my normal run (300nm) will take under two hours in the Trinny, 7 hours by road and 3.5 by Quaintarse (I live 100km from the city airport) I think I'm in front!
NAP
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Bugger you Chumbu,
I have had to delete the post I had been preparing for the last half hour because you have covered everything I was going to say .....and then some with far more panache and pointed logic than I could ever hope to achieve
Well done.
The insurance looks a bit dear though, I assume it must include 5 pax carriers liability.
To counter thread drift, sorry AN-120, can't help you with aircraft hire in Melbourne.. have never been to the place myself
I have had to delete the post I had been preparing for the last half hour because you have covered everything I was going to say .....and then some with far more panache and pointed logic than I could ever hope to achieve
Well done.The insurance looks a bit dear though, I assume it must include 5 pax carriers liability.
To counter thread drift, sorry AN-120, can't help you with aircraft hire in Melbourne.. have never been to the place myself
Grandpa Aerotart
Riding the goat.
A 210 would be very nearly the same as a Bo...any differences in annual total costs would be more a matter of luck with how well you bought/how good the pre buy inspection was etc etc...DOCs would be the same and as would insurance given equal insured airframe value.
Any comparable twin be it a C310 or Baron will cost you AT LEAST 2.5 times what the single costs...maybe 3 times.
So for a 210 add to my total fixed costs/maintenance figure above about $6000-$8000 for an extra 2 100hrly/annual inspections (They cost about 4-5k in Darwin and about 2.5-3k in the J curve). Down time for 3 annuals would be easy 2 mths/yr leaving 10mths @ 30 hrs/mth.
Call it $24000/300 + $120/hr DOCs=$200/hr wet....before you make cent 1 'profit'
If being done on a purely commercial basis you'd be mad to charge less than $250-300/hr...but the most you will get, leased/crosshire, is about $150/hr dry in places like darwin....therefore in my view anything less than $200/hr dry crosshire to NT charter companies is subsidising them to the tune of $50/hr..it aint worth it...it does cost you money.
On the same basis a c310 or Baron would be at least $500/hr before cent 1 in 'profit'...let alone money for nasty surprises.
The only saving you might be able to realise is the hangarage...hangarage is so expensive these days it has become very marginal as to it's worth...$3000-3500/yr x 10 years compared to the cost of a new paint job and interior in 10 years? If the aircraft lived away from the sea, a LONG way, and somewhere not prone to hail storms hangarage is not worth the expense.
EDIT for Beech King.
Sorry
I recently asked for a quote for insuring just 4 seats and only me flying it...it only made about 15% difference including stamp duty and GST.
A 210 would be very nearly the same as a Bo...any differences in annual total costs would be more a matter of luck with how well you bought/how good the pre buy inspection was etc etc...DOCs would be the same and as would insurance given equal insured airframe value.
Any comparable twin be it a C310 or Baron will cost you AT LEAST 2.5 times what the single costs...maybe 3 times.
So for a 210 add to my total fixed costs/maintenance figure above about $6000-$8000 for an extra 2 100hrly/annual inspections (They cost about 4-5k in Darwin and about 2.5-3k in the J curve). Down time for 3 annuals would be easy 2 mths/yr leaving 10mths @ 30 hrs/mth.
Call it $24000/300 + $120/hr DOCs=$200/hr wet....before you make cent 1 'profit'
If being done on a purely commercial basis you'd be mad to charge less than $250-300/hr...but the most you will get, leased/crosshire, is about $150/hr dry in places like darwin....therefore in my view anything less than $200/hr dry crosshire to NT charter companies is subsidising them to the tune of $50/hr..it aint worth it...it does cost you money.On the same basis a c310 or Baron would be at least $500/hr before cent 1 in 'profit'...let alone money for nasty surprises.
The only saving you might be able to realise is the hangarage...hangarage is so expensive these days it has become very marginal as to it's worth...$3000-3500/yr x 10 years compared to the cost of a new paint job and interior in 10 years? If the aircraft lived away from the sea, a LONG way, and somewhere not prone to hail storms hangarage is not worth the expense.
EDIT for Beech King.
Sorry
I recently asked for a quote for insuring just 4 seats and only me flying it...it only made about 15% difference including stamp duty and GST.
Last edited by Chimbu chuckles; 19th Oct 2006 at 11:05.
Grandpa Aerotart
I remember a 100hrlys in Darwin years ago taking 2 weeks...it sat waiting for it's 'turn' for 10+ days.
In the early 90s I owned a C185 in PNG...100hrlys used to take a day. I have seen one take 1/2 day.
With the skills shortages in engineering I don't think i would like to bet on 2 day 100hrlys...unless the LAMEs were employees of course.
As you say the actual 100hrly inspection takes not much time...but if that is all that is done each time you soon see why most light GA aircraft are in the state they are in.
Plus how many days do you lose in between 100hrlys to "ahhh...boss...the xyz just broke...honest!"?
Certainly once you get on top of maintenance and with an aeroplane that is flown constantly and if you have a reliable maintenance provider that has all sorts of spares in stock you can keep an aeroplane well maintained without huge downtime.
That also relys on the pilots writing things up...somewhere...so that parts can be ordered and on hand before the aircraft arrives for it's periodic maintenance.
My annuals probably take a few days longer than optimum because the hangar is chockers with 'working' aircraft and their owners sit on the phone screaming for them back...and almost every year I do a few bits extra so my aircraft is constantly getting better rather than slowly deteriorating. I would think my 'annuals/100hrlys' (based on 100hrs/annum) are about half my annual cost of maintenance.
In the early 90s I owned a C185 in PNG...100hrlys used to take a day. I have seen one take 1/2 day.
With the skills shortages in engineering I don't think i would like to bet on 2 day 100hrlys...unless the LAMEs were employees of course.
As you say the actual 100hrly inspection takes not much time...but if that is all that is done each time you soon see why most light GA aircraft are in the state they are in.
Plus how many days do you lose in between 100hrlys to "ahhh...boss...the xyz just broke...honest!"?
Certainly once you get on top of maintenance and with an aeroplane that is flown constantly and if you have a reliable maintenance provider that has all sorts of spares in stock you can keep an aeroplane well maintained without huge downtime.
That also relys on the pilots writing things up...somewhere
...so that parts can be ordered and on hand before the aircraft arrives for it's periodic maintenance.My annuals probably take a few days longer than optimum because the hangar is chockers with 'working' aircraft and their owners sit on the phone screaming for them back...and almost every year I do a few bits extra so my aircraft is constantly getting better rather than slowly deteriorating. I would think my 'annuals/100hrlys' (based on 100hrs/annum) are about half my annual cost of maintenance.
Last edited by Chimbu chuckles; 19th Oct 2006 at 12:46.
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Chimbu, very informative.
Comparing a 1976 cardinal RG to a new CH 640 (categorised sports) i've found the cost saving to be breathtaking; purchase, insurance, maintenance, fuel and longevity. Hence I find it hard to support the ownership of a VH registered aircraft in this day and age without the right reasons. If its for your love of the classic machines by all means i'll hire it and support the cause, but if someone is purely investing to make a profit (which YOU are clearly not doing, as seen from your post above); there are much better ways to invest.
Totally agree with your stance on Cirrus, but many do not understand the implications of FAR 23 certification... and lose...
Comparing a 1976 cardinal RG to a new CH 640 (categorised sports) i've found the cost saving to be breathtaking; purchase, insurance, maintenance, fuel and longevity. Hence I find it hard to support the ownership of a VH registered aircraft in this day and age without the right reasons. If its for your love of the classic machines by all means i'll hire it and support the cause, but if someone is purely investing to make a profit (which YOU are clearly not doing, as seen from your post above
); there are much better ways to invest.Totally agree with your stance on Cirrus, but many do not understand the implications of FAR 23 certification... and lose...
Grandpa Aerotart
if someone is purely investing to make a profit
You wanna invest money buy great art, real estate, gold, blue chip stocks etc etc.
You wanna burn disposable income and have fun buy an aeroplane, boat, vintage car...etc
Always amazes me that people say that GA is unnaffordable...and yet they are driving a 60k Ford or Holden. It revolves around choices yes..but 'unnaffordable' I don't think so. Look at how many boats bob at their moorings around Australia's coastlines.
I have no idea what a CH640 is but unless it carries 3 or 4 people, some baggage and is capable of IFR (even if only 'light' IFR) then the comparison to a Cessna Cardinal is a little unfair.
Don't get me wrong 'sport aircraft' are wonderful but they, as yet, don't directly compare to 'classics' as you refer to them. 2 seat technams, which are great little aeroplanes in themselves, are well over 100k new...they are cheap as chips to run...but then any 2 seater is.
What is a good Cardinal worth...60-70k?
About as much as a Commadore SS.
A little over $100/hr total to run probably.
For 4 seats in a stylish, simple, sturdy airframe that will do 120kts...seems like good value to me....is their a sport registered aircraft that compares directly?
Buy it in a partnership with one other like minded pilot...most people could afford that if they want to.
Don't buy the RG model because in that class of aeroplane the retractable undercarriage is a 1970s sales gimmick...not worth the weight/maintenance/insurance premium.
GA/aircraft ownership unnaffordable?...bollocks.
Last edited by Chimbu chuckles; 19th Oct 2006 at 16:22.
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CC - I agree with all of your words of wisdom.......except, I think you can't ignore the opportunity cost of owning that $150k aeroplane. If you didn't own it you could put the $150k into blue chip shares and earn a conservative 10% pa, so maybe you should add another $15k to your fixed annual costs (I'm no accountant, but .....).
Based on 200 hr/yr, my Bonanza (dry leased) costs me near as a bee's dick to $300/hr + landing fees.
If I need to go anywhere west of the east coast of Oz from Cairns to Melbourne and I can do it in significantly less travel time in the Bonanza.
Cheaper than the airlines? - probably depends on what value you put on your time (I'm expensive !!!), or how many people are travelling.
Don't know of any other way I can leave Cairns at 07:00 and arrive in Alice Springs at 12:30, in time for lunch, in any weather other than embedded thunderstorms (Stormscope/Strikemaster would be nice).
R
Based on 200 hr/yr, my Bonanza (dry leased) costs me near as a bee's dick to $300/hr + landing fees.
If I need to go anywhere west of the east coast of Oz from Cairns to Melbourne and I can do it in significantly less travel time in the Bonanza.
Cheaper than the airlines? - probably depends on what value you put on your time (I'm expensive !!!), or how many people are travelling.
Don't know of any other way I can leave Cairns at 07:00 and arrive in Alice Springs at 12:30, in time for lunch, in any weather other than embedded thunderstorms (Stormscope/Strikemaster would be nice).
R
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My point exactly chimbu. If someone goes out and buys that boat/plain/vintage car and then complains they don't make any money off it, why'd they buy it?
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Follow on similar question for Sydney. Just to clarify am currently GFPT and most navs done. Intention is to fly + 1 pax and no real load for business reasons ~50hr / yr plus whatever for pleasure - which I currently do anyway - up and down the coast from Sydney. Clearly in the short term while still VFR with a backup ticket for QLINK/rex to allow for Wx.
So - suggestions re suitable planes and reliable operators (preferably with more than one of a type so that currency on type is not a problem when an aircarft is on downtime) would be appreciated.
So - suggestions re suitable planes and reliable operators (preferably with more than one of a type so that currency on type is not a problem when an aircarft is on downtime) would be appreciated.
Grandpa Aerotart
rat**** I agree with you on opportunity costs...but I ignore them anyway
My accountant can't quite get his head around that but that is his problem.
As I see it there is simply no justification for owning an aeroplane....except you're a long time dead. When I bought her I had several houses...they're boring
My accountant can't quite get his head around that but that is his problem.
As I see it there is simply no justification for owning an aeroplane....except you're a long time dead. When I bought her I had several houses...they're boring
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