Cleared Visual Approach....
Nunc est bibendum
If the STAR joins up with the approach then you follow the star until you intercept final and then fly the approach from there!
Why do you ask Two dogs?
Why do you ask Two dogs?
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Tracking requirements (visual app): ATC AU-705 (1.7.5.4) Jepp reference.
Visual approach in CTA
a) maintain track/heading on route authorised by ATC until:
(1) by day, within 5NM of the aerodrome; or
(2) by night.
- IFR flight, within the prescribed circling area.
- VFR flight, within 3NM of aerodrome and aerodrome in sight.
b) From this position the circuit must be joined as directed by ATC for
approach to nominated R/W.
Visual approach in CTA
a) maintain track/heading on route authorised by ATC until:
(1) by day, within 5NM of the aerodrome; or
(2) by night.
- IFR flight, within the prescribed circling area.
- VFR flight, within 3NM of aerodrome and aerodrome in sight.
b) From this position the circuit must be joined as directed by ATC for
approach to nominated R/W.
When you live....
Visual approach at night
Sorry to thread-hijack but something I overheard recently made me wonder.
On a fine night, Melbourne Approach and an Eastern -8 spent a long and laborious process negotiating a visual approach to 09.
I think the crew requested "Request visual approach once established in the circling area"
Melbourne: "Confirm requesting visual approach once established in the circling aread"
-8: "affirm"
Mel: "Eastern... Once established in the circling area cleared visual approach runway 09"
-8: "once established in the circling area, visual approach 09"
My question/point is: Why all the malarky about 'once established in the circling area'? It was night time so the only time descent is allowed below MSA/MVA is inside the circling area - why go to so much trouble to spell it out again and again?
UTR
On a fine night, Melbourne Approach and an Eastern -8 spent a long and laborious process negotiating a visual approach to 09.
I think the crew requested "Request visual approach once established in the circling area"
Melbourne: "Confirm requesting visual approach once established in the circling aread"
-8: "affirm"
Mel: "Eastern... Once established in the circling area cleared visual approach runway 09"
-8: "once established in the circling area, visual approach 09"
My question/point is: Why all the malarky about 'once established in the circling area'? It was night time so the only time descent is allowed below MSA/MVA is inside the circling area - why go to so much trouble to spell it out again and again?
UTR
Last edited by UnderneathTheRadar; 5th Oct 2006 at 03:03. Reason: spelling/gramma
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......why go to so much trouble to spell it out again and again?
But you are already covering your ass if you follow the AIP and remain above the relevant LSALT/MSA, or DME step, and join a 5nm final (7nm's on an ILS equipped runway, and 10nm's established not below the on-slope indication and less than full scale deflection of the azimuth from the ILS) provided the runway has a T-VASIS or PAPI.
So why make it harder for yourself, when you could have still covered your ass and made it easier??
morno
So why make it harder for yourself, when you could have still covered your ass and made it easier??
morno
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It's called "covering your ass" and is practiced widely in this litigation mad society we live in these days !
ATC are creating a rod for their own backs by including the phrase "when established in the circling area", IMHO - they are assuming some of the pilot's responsibilities.
In the case of the Dash 8, the controllers instruction should just have been "make visual approach".
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Unfortunately, ATC's have to cover their arse and your arse, because most have learned from long experience that just because "its obvious" and clearly spelled out in AIP doesn't mean that pilots will follow the correct procedures.
I would hope that an Eastern crew would know what's expected/required of them WRT AIPs etc.
APMR - I nearly agree, there might need to be a CCT joining instruction following "cleared visual approach" (and I assume that a runway has been specified already - if not that's required also, and will come with the CCT join instruction, unless it is bleeding obvious like one runway etc.).
Now back to the original question...
As I understand it -
"Cleared visual approch" has tracking and descent considerations.
WRT to tracking, you are expected to continue on cleared track (in this example, the STAR) until 5nm by day, or until inside the circling area by night. Remember there may be circling restrictions...
All that stuff about aligned w/ centreline within 5nm (7nm ILS Rwy) and above slope on the visual slope aids, or 10nm established LLZ indicating not below GS (14nm SY) etc. etc. tells you when you're allowed to continue descent through MSA or last radar level or DME/GPS step or approach minima etc. at night. You can of course overfly and circle, in the circling area, descending with normal rates of descent at normal circuit spacing for the a/c (this is circling, by definition). By day you can run your descent much less rigourously (but a good pilot wouldn't). You are allowed to go as low as you want without committing "low-flying" (there is a CAR ref. for that). So that covers descent on a visual approach...
If you get "cancel STAR" with your visual approach you will get a subsequent tracking instruction (if you don't, I'd certainly ask for one, unless it was exceedingly obvious - this can be the case).
Happy to be corrected!
CR.
APMR - I nearly agree, there might need to be a CCT joining instruction following "cleared visual approach" (and I assume that a runway has been specified already - if not that's required also, and will come with the CCT join instruction, unless it is bleeding obvious like one runway etc.).
Now back to the original question...
As I understand it -
"Cleared visual approch" has tracking and descent considerations.
WRT to tracking, you are expected to continue on cleared track (in this example, the STAR) until 5nm by day, or until inside the circling area by night. Remember there may be circling restrictions...
All that stuff about aligned w/ centreline within 5nm (7nm ILS Rwy) and above slope on the visual slope aids, or 10nm established LLZ indicating not below GS (14nm SY) etc. etc. tells you when you're allowed to continue descent through MSA or last radar level or DME/GPS step or approach minima etc. at night. You can of course overfly and circle, in the circling area, descending with normal rates of descent at normal circuit spacing for the a/c (this is circling, by definition). By day you can run your descent much less rigourously (but a good pilot wouldn't). You are allowed to go as low as you want without committing "low-flying" (there is a CAR ref. for that). So that covers descent on a visual approach...
If you get "cancel STAR" with your visual approach you will get a subsequent tracking instruction (if you don't, I'd certainly ask for one, unless it was exceedingly obvious - this can be the case).
Happy to be corrected!
CR.
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Regards Visual Approaches at night, it is clearly spelt out in AIP?MATS that we, as ATC, must use the 'once established in the circling area/on the VASIS cleared visual approach.' Not an option for us not to use it, it's there in black and white.
APMR - not to be picky, but you are saying that the pilots should know what to do for a VSA at night, and you then get the R/T incorrect (cleared visual approach not make visual approach). Small error, I know, but can the crew not make a small error in their conduct of a visual approach? We all make mistakes, but to try and prevent one is a good thing.
A visual approach durng the day can be authorised inside 30NM. One of the aircrew responsibilities is to maintain the aircraft above the CTA steps. The amount of times I have, as an approach controller, seen all manner of aircraft descend under the steps would amaze you. For me, the added arse covering of 'once established in the circling area' gives me a bit more of a warm-fuzzy when it comes to terrain and night time. These two items have been the cause of much grief to ATC and aircrew alike.
I wonder how how bretheren in other parts of the world do it?
Cheers all,
NFR.
APMR - not to be picky, but you are saying that the pilots should know what to do for a VSA at night, and you then get the R/T incorrect (cleared visual approach not make visual approach). Small error, I know, but can the crew not make a small error in their conduct of a visual approach? We all make mistakes, but to try and prevent one is a good thing.
A visual approach durng the day can be authorised inside 30NM. One of the aircrew responsibilities is to maintain the aircraft above the CTA steps. The amount of times I have, as an approach controller, seen all manner of aircraft descend under the steps would amaze you. For me, the added arse covering of 'once established in the circling area' gives me a bit more of a warm-fuzzy when it comes to terrain and night time. These two items have been the cause of much grief to ATC and aircrew alike.
I wonder how how bretheren in other parts of the world do it?
Cheers all,
NFR.
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Thanks for your replies - my question was somewhat rhetorical however.
I have noticed of late various operators when cleared VSA manouevring off the STAR track. I assume this was interpreting the AIP extract as shown above by Jack Red:
The emphasis in the replies seems to be on para a).
However, re-read para b).
"As directed by ATC" means as directed by the STAR as best I can interpret - in many STARS there are circuit joining instructions .e.g. Track 275 for a 3.5NM Final.
Any comments?
I have noticed of late various operators when cleared VSA manouevring off the STAR track. I assume this was interpreting the AIP extract as shown above by Jack Red:
Tracking requirements (visual app): ATC AU-705 (1.7.5.4) Jepp reference.
Visual approach in CTA
a) maintain track/heading on route authorised by ATC until:
(1) by day, within 5NM of the aerodrome; or
(2) by night.
- IFR flight, within the prescribed circling area.
- VFR flight, within 3NM of aerodrome and aerodrome in sight.
b) From this position the circuit must be joined as directed by ATC for
approach to nominated R/W.
Visual approach in CTA
a) maintain track/heading on route authorised by ATC until:
(1) by day, within 5NM of the aerodrome; or
(2) by night.
- IFR flight, within the prescribed circling area.
- VFR flight, within 3NM of aerodrome and aerodrome in sight.
b) From this position the circuit must be joined as directed by ATC for
approach to nominated R/W.
However, re-read para b).
"As directed by ATC" means as directed by the STAR as best I can interpret - in many STARS there are circuit joining instructions .e.g. Track 275 for a 3.5NM Final.
Any comments?
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Underneath the Radar,
When being vectored at night, an IFR aircraft ... may be assigned a visual approach at any distance from an aerodrome if:
a.the aircraft has been assigned the MVA; and
b.the aircraft is given heading instructions to intercept final or to position the aircraft within the circling area of the aerodrome; and
c.the following phraseology is used to assign the visual approach:
1.“WHEN ESTABLISHED IN THE CIRCLING AREA CLEARED VISUAL APPROACH”; or
2.“WHEN ESTABLISHED ON THE VASIS/GLIDEPATH CLEARED VISUAL APPROACH”.
The circling area RT is only required when the aircraft is vectored at night. Otherwise it's business as usual. Unless the Eastern crew were under vectors, there is no need for the extra RT. AIP spells out the additional pilot requirements at night but ATC only have different requirements if they have vectored the aircraft.
When being vectored at night, an IFR aircraft ... may be assigned a visual approach at any distance from an aerodrome if:
a.the aircraft has been assigned the MVA; and
b.the aircraft is given heading instructions to intercept final or to position the aircraft within the circling area of the aerodrome; and
c.the following phraseology is used to assign the visual approach:
1.“WHEN ESTABLISHED IN THE CIRCLING AREA CLEARED VISUAL APPROACH”; or
2.“WHEN ESTABLISHED ON THE VASIS/GLIDEPATH CLEARED VISUAL APPROACH”.
The circling area RT is only required when the aircraft is vectored at night. Otherwise it's business as usual. Unless the Eastern crew were under vectors, there is no need for the extra RT. AIP spells out the additional pilot requirements at night but ATC only have different requirements if they have vectored the aircraft.
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The STAR is the track authorised by ATC and should be maintained until within 5nm then a VSA made as directed. If the STAR doesn't take the aircraft to a position within 5nm, then ATC should provide tracking instructions.
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NIMFLT,
I would take it further - if the STAR directs you how to join a VSA within 5nm, you continue to follow the STAR.
The clearance for the VSA infers descent, not Carte Blanche traking when within 5nm.
Sounds like nitpicking - but it is often the difference between a separation standard or not.
I would take it further - if the STAR directs you how to join a VSA within 5nm, you continue to follow the STAR.
The clearance for the VSA infers descent, not Carte Blanche traking when within 5nm.
Sounds like nitpicking - but it is often the difference between a separation standard or not.
Grandpa Aerotart
I am at somewhat of a loss to see the problem here.
The AIP is excrutiatingly clear on the requirements THAT MUST BE MET for an IFR RPT aircraft to carry out a visual approach in CTA at night.
If someone decides to criss cross christiandom at night having been cleared for a visual approach he should expect the last thing he hears from ATC before shutdown is "the captain is required to call ATC on...."
"hello this is captain xyz"
"Ahh yes...do you understand the phrase 'maintain the track progressively authorised by ATC?"
"uhh yes"
"So you think it doesn't apply to you?"
"uhhh no"
"so you are incapable of meeting the requirements?"
"well no..."
"well I am afraid a report is going into your CP over your reluctance to follow clearly laid down requirements...that ok is it?"
"ummm"
"Have a good night sir"
How long do you think it would be before it stopped happening?
If you sit behind your console shaking your head nothing will change...get the CPs involved and they will get the C&Ting staff involved...they put out a memo to all aircrew and it becomes an item to be addressed at the next C&Ting meeting and then an excercise in the next recurrent sim cyclic.
Simple really.
The AIP is excrutiatingly clear on the requirements THAT MUST BE MET for an IFR RPT aircraft to carry out a visual approach in CTA at night.
If someone decides to criss cross christiandom at night having been cleared for a visual approach he should expect the last thing he hears from ATC before shutdown is "the captain is required to call ATC on...."
"hello this is captain xyz"
"Ahh yes...do you understand the phrase 'maintain the track progressively authorised by ATC?"
"uhh yes"
"So you think it doesn't apply to you?"
"uhhh no"
"so you are incapable of meeting the requirements?"
"well no..."
"well I am afraid a report is going into your CP over your reluctance to follow clearly laid down requirements...that ok is it?"
"ummm"
"Have a good night sir"
How long do you think it would be before it stopped happening?
If you sit behind your console shaking your head nothing will change...get the CPs involved and they will get the C&Ting staff involved...they put out a memo to all aircrew and it becomes an item to be addressed at the next C&Ting meeting and then an excercise in the next recurrent sim cyclic.
Simple really.
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Chuck - the thread got hijacked a bit, as I was not talking about night vsa's.
Just tracking on a STAR.
Seeing quite regulalry different companies leaving the STAR when cleared VSA - thats why a brought it up for discussion.
The point being that a) and b) apply in the Jepp/AIP reference.
Just tracking on a STAR.
Seeing quite regulalry different companies leaving the STAR when cleared VSA - thats why a brought it up for discussion.
The point being that a) and b) apply in the Jepp/AIP reference.
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One I have seen used in YMML is 'cleared VSA tracking via the STAR'. I think this gives the ATC tracking requirements laterally, and then it's up to the pilot to descend accordingly.
Cheers,
NFR.
Cheers,
NFR.
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NFR - superfluous and ambiguous.
You are already cleared via the STAR. That just confuses someone when they DON'T get "via the STAR".
If it is so siimple pakeha-boy why are there 1/2 a dozen interpretations, and why do I see aircraft leaving the STAR?
You are already cleared via the STAR. That just confuses someone when they DON'T get "via the STAR".
If it is so siimple pakeha-boy why are there 1/2 a dozen interpretations, and why do I see aircraft leaving the STAR?
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****s....it is really quite simple mate as I fly them every day,and if you only see a few leaving the STAR after cleared for the visual app,which they are entilted to do and as I do often ,whilst maintaining VFR rules then it not a problem,it is not a complicated venture...I dont make the rules ..I just follow them.......and the rules are fairly well in black and white......like all lawyers,they dont ask questions they dont know the answers too...personally I believe you understand fully what you are asking here...maybe just trying to stir the pot ay???????.......PB