AusFIC - Could THIS be the beginning of the demise of???
Slugfest to answer your question. I think that the service should be provided and that it should be FOC to VFR as it now is.
My point was that Griffo was talking about paying but receiving no service. Well VFR do not pay, simple.
Griffo you obviously have a computer so why fax a plan rather than use NAIPS (free). Or why not hold on to the plan yourself but lodge a SARtime via VHF of HF for free?
Peuce I cannot find the reference at present but basically provision of SAR is mandatory so the Flightwatch-AusSAR link is likely to remain. It would be a "courageous" minister to sign the paperwork removing a USO from existence.
Listening to what the ATCO's on here have to say it appears to be unlikely to happen, not that AsA wouldn't probably love to be able to remove it.
My point was that Griffo was talking about paying but receiving no service. Well VFR do not pay, simple.
Griffo you obviously have a computer so why fax a plan rather than use NAIPS (free). Or why not hold on to the plan yourself but lodge a SARtime via VHF of HF for free?
Peuce I cannot find the reference at present but basically provision of SAR is mandatory so the Flightwatch-AusSAR link is likely to remain. It would be a "courageous" minister to sign the paperwork removing a USO from existence.
Listening to what the ATCO's on here have to say it appears to be unlikely to happen, not that AsA wouldn't probably love to be able to remove it.
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Ta Iccy,
Why FOC? I think users should pay for the true costs for delivery (not the token 50c charge on the phoneaway card), and only that cost ie AA not to make a profit on stuff mandated that the pilot must have to go flying but neither should AA incur a cost for providing that info. Fair's fair?
Provision of SAR is mandatory for certain categories of flight - SARTIMEs are not. Most countries don't have such a "device". Neither are they a USO / CSO.
Apparently TFN/Minister has decreed that SARTIMEs will not be removed for "other" reasons: read most affected is "the bush".
Slug
Why FOC? I think users should pay for the true costs for delivery (not the token 50c charge on the phoneaway card), and only that cost ie AA not to make a profit on stuff mandated that the pilot must have to go flying but neither should AA incur a cost for providing that info. Fair's fair?
Provision of SAR is mandatory for certain categories of flight - SARTIMEs are not. Most countries don't have such a "device". Neither are they a USO / CSO.
Apparently TFN/Minister has decreed that SARTIMEs will not be removed for "other" reasons: read most affected is "the bush".
Slug
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Sounds like the way Canada is headed. FIC's all over...one proposed one cancelled. How far away is more consolidation, then eventually doing away with them entirely and having internet briefings only and SAR delegated elsewhere? Come to think of it...wasn't it a Canadian (PP) who decimated your FSS many years agao?
Thread Starter
Well Icarus,
Thanks for THAT rather obvious query.......
I wonder if I would have thought of that - eventually...?
Being an 'ex' means that I do know how the 'system' works - or doesn't work -so I tend to use it accordingly.
e.g. I do BUY current maps and charts / amendments etc at the INFLATED PRICES the ASA monopoly sets and INSISTS we carry - but only what I actually use / need - For Safety of course.
Why not a 'COST-ONLY- PRICE'???
VFR Doesn't pay????
Remember when...a WAC cost less than $2...???
And VTC's, ERSA's etc were FREE...???
Because it is 'REQUIRED' information??
And, I do leave 'SARTIME" and FULL DETAILS / CONTACTS with 'MUM' - it works for me - she KNOWS who to ring & what to do etc etc...ITS FREE!!!
However, at the Aero club from which I mostly fly, I do see students being taught the 'vagaries' of 'the system' (and other pilots who do not have convenient computer access) and inserting their phone cards and spending their money...
And, this younger generation of pilots will never know the 'old' system of being able to attend a manned briefing office, and receive a personal 'over the counter' briefing on weather / NOTAMs / Flight Plan education / perusal / checking etc etc....did you NEVER receive a little green 'Smiley' on your Flight Plan????
ALL FOR FREE!!!!!
Yeah, I know those days are GORN - NEVER to return - and now we DO pay - and pay extravagantly for all of the above......
So, Mate(?), when next you get into your acft and go for a little VFR cross country fly, remember the items you HAVE TO carry, where you got them, how much you paid for them, and then, tell me it is free!!!!!
Yes - You can call FW - ask for the Area QNH - thats now being 'discouraged' - oh, but, that's still free.....
Thanks for THAT rather obvious query.......
I wonder if I would have thought of that - eventually...?
Being an 'ex' means that I do know how the 'system' works - or doesn't work -so I tend to use it accordingly.
e.g. I do BUY current maps and charts / amendments etc at the INFLATED PRICES the ASA monopoly sets and INSISTS we carry - but only what I actually use / need - For Safety of course.
Why not a 'COST-ONLY- PRICE'???
VFR Doesn't pay????
Remember when...a WAC cost less than $2...???
And VTC's, ERSA's etc were FREE...???
Because it is 'REQUIRED' information??
And, I do leave 'SARTIME" and FULL DETAILS / CONTACTS with 'MUM' - it works for me - she KNOWS who to ring & what to do etc etc...ITS FREE!!!
However, at the Aero club from which I mostly fly, I do see students being taught the 'vagaries' of 'the system' (and other pilots who do not have convenient computer access) and inserting their phone cards and spending their money...
And, this younger generation of pilots will never know the 'old' system of being able to attend a manned briefing office, and receive a personal 'over the counter' briefing on weather / NOTAMs / Flight Plan education / perusal / checking etc etc....did you NEVER receive a little green 'Smiley' on your Flight Plan????
ALL FOR FREE!!!!!
Yeah, I know those days are GORN - NEVER to return - and now we DO pay - and pay extravagantly for all of the above......
So, Mate(?), when next you get into your acft and go for a little VFR cross country fly, remember the items you HAVE TO carry, where you got them, how much you paid for them, and then, tell me it is free!!!!!
Yes - You can call FW - ask for the Area QNH - thats now being 'discouraged' - oh, but, that's still free.....
Man Bilong Balus long PNG
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And, this younger generation of pilots will never know the 'old' system of being able to attend a manned briefing office, and receive a personal 'over the counter' briefing on weather / NOTAMs / Flight Plan education / perusal / checking etc etc....did you NEVER receive a little green 'Smiley' on your Flight Plan????
I really don't give a rats a**e what some people may think but it is my humble opinion that aviation was far better then and I consider myself lucky to have learned to fly back in those times. Yes indeed things have changed in Aviation; but not for the better!
G'day Griffo.
Would someone care to let me in to what one of those green smilies were? 
Thread Starter
G'day 'Zep',
'Twas a personal touch.....nothing 'big', but when the pilots submitted their FPL's (students in particular) for entry into 'the system',
along with the 'Date/Time' stamp on receipt of the plan, a little 'green smiley face' was added with a rubber stamp & green ink from a kid's set....
Now you can all say, aaaaahhhhh....... or
At least it made the students smile......and that, often 'made our day'....
'Twas a YPJT 'thing'........and, THEY were FREE too!!!
Cheers,
QFY..
'Twas a personal touch.....nothing 'big', but when the pilots submitted their FPL's (students in particular) for entry into 'the system',
along with the 'Date/Time' stamp on receipt of the plan, a little 'green smiley face' was added with a rubber stamp & green ink from a kid's set....
Now you can all say, aaaaahhhhh.......
or At least it made the students smile......and that, often 'made our day'....
'Twas a YPJT 'thing'........and, THEY were FREE too!!!
Cheers,
QFY..
Last edited by Ex FSO GRIFFO; 7th Sep 2006 at 07:20. Reason: Punctuation.....
G'day Griffo,
Awwwwww, how lovely!
Check yer PMs.
Awwwwww, how lovely!
Check yer PMs.
Griffo, I agree with you. I loved having a briefing office. I loved having a REAL met man to talk to, face to face. Fantastic. Apparently we cannot afford all that any more. It was a little odd to just ask for a new ERC when mine was getting tatty but the WAC came with a Commonwealth government receipt for $2.00!
What has happened is the cost and the provision of this service has been transplanted to said Aero Club, (as you well know) their staff now provide the briefing facility and safety net that the government used to provide.
So all these "savings" from the Bosch report, what have we actually done with the money, sold the bloody airports...
However, my original point remains. VFR is free. It is important to keep saying that because RHS uses costs as a platform for his NAS peccadillos and it is a furphy.
Yes Griffo, you have to spend, what $150-$200 a year on charts. What does an aeroplane cost you a year to own or rent? If a PPL holder flys say 100 hours a year, it adds $2 per hour to the cost. I would argue that if you cannot afford that then find a cheaper hobby. Sorry.
Have you tried buying nautical charts lately?
Finally I was not insulting your knowledge, simply expanding and simplifying it for the newbies who may be reading.
What has happened is the cost and the provision of this service has been transplanted to said Aero Club, (as you well know) their staff now provide the briefing facility and safety net that the government used to provide.
So all these "savings" from the Bosch report, what have we actually done with the money, sold the bloody airports...
However, my original point remains. VFR is free. It is important to keep saying that because RHS uses costs as a platform for his NAS peccadillos and it is a furphy.
Yes Griffo, you have to spend, what $150-$200 a year on charts. What does an aeroplane cost you a year to own or rent? If a PPL holder flys say 100 hours a year, it adds $2 per hour to the cost. I would argue that if you cannot afford that then find a cheaper hobby. Sorry.
Have you tried buying nautical charts lately?
Finally I was not insulting your knowledge, simply expanding and simplifying it for the newbies who may be reading.
Thread Starter
Hey 'Icarus',
Thanks for that - its all Ok - really - we are all 'in the same boat' so to speak??
But....doesn't this continual 'downsizing' and degradation of services rendered
give you the 'irits'??
I know it certainly does me!
And we all know the 'reasons' given are pure B.S.!
Smacks of (allegedly) a new CEO coming in and making a name for himself, as we have all seen so many times before in this and other industries, then takes the big 'golden handshake' and leaves the resultant mess for the 'troops' to deal with......
Its just, so Ho Hum, these days....
And, I hear the proposal is to 'consolidate' senior management to CBR - now there's a novel idea....so close to the 'coalface....'
And, AT WHAT COST to the industry...??
Cheers
Thanks for that - its all Ok - really - we are all 'in the same boat' so to speak??
But....doesn't this continual 'downsizing' and degradation of services rendered
give you the 'irits'??
I know it certainly does me!
And we all know the 'reasons' given are pure B.S.!
Smacks of (allegedly) a new CEO coming in and making a name for himself, as we have all seen so many times before in this and other industries, then takes the big 'golden handshake' and leaves the resultant mess for the 'troops' to deal with......
Its just, so Ho Hum, these days....
And, I hear the proposal is to 'consolidate' senior management to CBR - now there's a novel idea....so close to the 'coalface....'
And, AT WHAT COST to the industry...??
Cheers
Last edited by Ex FSO GRIFFO; 7th Sep 2006 at 15:43.
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senior management
I'm sure there's a bit of money there that could be better spent!
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I take it, you got a 'smiley' or two?
It was'nt called Flight Service for nothing!
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horse before the cart
Getting back to Griffo's original post. Well the rumour was confirmed today. Thanks to an AusFIC staffer for all the acronmyms that follow!!
AusFIC management have formally sought expressions of interest (EOI) from staff for voluntary redundancy. (VR)
They say they will achieve "efficiencies" by transferring certain functions of AusFIC to other sections of ATC, namely
1. Transfer of the Flightwatch VHF function to ATC sectors (no longer a standalone FIS external to the traffic environment)
2. Transfer of management of Sartimes with CENSAR to the Flight Data Coordinators (FDC) of the two ATC Centres. (one might presume that the FDCs would have to take on this responsibility in addition to their existing work for it to be an efficiency gain - but you can bet that they fudge it and increase the staff numbers in FDC area, simply to cut them in AusFIC)
3. Tweak the rosters of Flightwatch (both domestic and International)
4. Transfer part of the Briefing Office function on to those same FDCs who are taking on the Sartimes (namely the queue that your Flight Notification comes in when you submit it on NAIPS and your flight notification has need for manual processing foor any reason)
5. Transfer of the switching of messages on the Aeronautical Fixed Telecommunication Network (AFTN) management from AusFIC staff to technical staff (I guess these staff will have to do this in addition to their current work without increases in numbers for it to be an efficiency!)
6. Transfer of some clerical/rostering/admin functions to other admin staff in Brisbane.
Well we've seen all this before. Make the cuts first (the VRs) then find that it does not work, then re-employ those same staff later to fix up the mess after the managers responsible for these debacles are long gone.
There is a view by some that many of the staff affected who leave are more than happy to go..... so they are not victims, but those who stay behind have to do more with less, suffer more stress and are involved in the provision of a permanently degraded service for which those customers who pay, just keep paying.
However, the real victim here is the aviation industry - the pilot flying the aircraft - the pilot is getting less of what is presently provided. In-flight FIS will now be a less responsive service by busy controllers. This is again the real tragedy - they never learn.
For those controllers who have said here that all this won't happen, well if you guys are going to stop this, now is the time.
Cheers, Jamit
AusFIC management have formally sought expressions of interest (EOI) from staff for voluntary redundancy. (VR)
They say they will achieve "efficiencies" by transferring certain functions of AusFIC to other sections of ATC, namely
1. Transfer of the Flightwatch VHF function to ATC sectors (no longer a standalone FIS external to the traffic environment)
2. Transfer of management of Sartimes with CENSAR to the Flight Data Coordinators (FDC) of the two ATC Centres. (one might presume that the FDCs would have to take on this responsibility in addition to their existing work for it to be an efficiency gain - but you can bet that they fudge it and increase the staff numbers in FDC area, simply to cut them in AusFIC)
3. Tweak the rosters of Flightwatch (both domestic and International)
4. Transfer part of the Briefing Office function on to those same FDCs who are taking on the Sartimes (namely the queue that your Flight Notification comes in when you submit it on NAIPS and your flight notification has need for manual processing foor any reason)
5. Transfer of the switching of messages on the Aeronautical Fixed Telecommunication Network (AFTN) management from AusFIC staff to technical staff (I guess these staff will have to do this in addition to their current work without increases in numbers for it to be an efficiency!)
6. Transfer of some clerical/rostering/admin functions to other admin staff in Brisbane.
Well we've seen all this before. Make the cuts first (the VRs) then find that it does not work, then re-employ those same staff later to fix up the mess after the managers responsible for these debacles are long gone.
There is a view by some that many of the staff affected who leave are more than happy to go..... so they are not victims, but those who stay behind have to do more with less, suffer more stress and are involved in the provision of a permanently degraded service for which those customers who pay, just keep paying.
However, the real victim here is the aviation industry - the pilot flying the aircraft - the pilot is getting less of what is presently provided. In-flight FIS will now be a less responsive service by busy controllers. This is again the real tragedy - they never learn.
For those controllers who have said here that all this won't happen, well if you guys are going to stop this, now is the time.
Cheers, Jamit
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Jamit,
As I am sure you are aware, those planning these projects in Canberra have an altered sense of reality. Exactly where the shiny bum silk tie types get their information from on actual resources on the ground and what these people actually do... I really shake my head in wonder.
Airservices Management finally, and quietly, shelved another of their ill fated projects this year after about 6 years in the making / not-making. The concentration of Terminal Control Units from Perth, Sydney, Adelaide and Cairns to Brisbane and Melbourne Centres has been canned. How many $M were spent on coming to the same conclusion that Civil Air and it's members gave years back? We will never know. Commerical-in-confidence of course. More like Embarassment-in-confidence. Remember - these are YOUR dollars people.
So what will happen with this new toy project as well as the other myriad on the boil? Well the track record to date suggests some re-thinking. Probably in a few years from now the realisation that ther is no spare capacity to move these responsibilities to the already stretched ATC system is possible.
Every day in Australia it is only due to the goodwill (yes there is some left) and professionalism of the ATC's who work the system that stops it being closed - practically every day large sections of airspace come within hours of being shut down because there are not the people to cover the gaps.
Amongst this environment is one of the largest projects to restruture the airspace yet again, whilst introducing new technologies and a myriad of other projects. All of these require training - but to train people they have to have time away from the roster which can not be covered as it is.
On top of this comes a rumour that management wish to reduce controller numbers by another 10%.
So forgive many of us for being a bit cynical when we see yet another scheme to make more money for the government by reducing service to the industry. Let me tell you right now - Sectors do not have time to provide a Flightwatch function.
Always ask yourself the question when a proposal comes along like this - Who proposed it and why?
As I am sure you are aware, those planning these projects in Canberra have an altered sense of reality. Exactly where the shiny bum silk tie types get their information from on actual resources on the ground and what these people actually do... I really shake my head in wonder.
Airservices Management finally, and quietly, shelved another of their ill fated projects this year after about 6 years in the making / not-making. The concentration of Terminal Control Units from Perth, Sydney, Adelaide and Cairns to Brisbane and Melbourne Centres has been canned. How many $M were spent on coming to the same conclusion that Civil Air and it's members gave years back? We will never know. Commerical-in-confidence of course. More like Embarassment-in-confidence. Remember - these are YOUR dollars people.
So what will happen with this new toy project as well as the other myriad on the boil? Well the track record to date suggests some re-thinking. Probably in a few years from now the realisation that ther is no spare capacity to move these responsibilities to the already stretched ATC system is possible.
Every day in Australia it is only due to the goodwill (yes there is some left) and professionalism of the ATC's who work the system that stops it being closed - practically every day large sections of airspace come within hours of being shut down because there are not the people to cover the gaps.
Amongst this environment is one of the largest projects to restruture the airspace yet again, whilst introducing new technologies and a myriad of other projects. All of these require training - but to train people they have to have time away from the roster which can not be covered as it is.
On top of this comes a rumour that management wish to reduce controller numbers by another 10%.
So forgive many of us for being a bit cynical when we see yet another scheme to make more money for the government by reducing service to the industry. Let me tell you right now - Sectors do not have time to provide a Flightwatch function.
Always ask yourself the question when a proposal comes along like this - Who proposed it and why?
Thread Starter
what?? WHat?? WHAt?? WHAT???
Hey 'AIRSIC'.....
'Twas none other than the 'so called 'MAN' at the top at the time - electronics ring a bell?? - who coined the phrase.......wait for the denials........
12.12.1991......"Your Safety Will Be Enhanced And It Will Cost You Less!"
Well, Industry People:-
- IS YOUR SAFETY ENHANCED??
- HAS IT COST YOU LESS???
The REPEAT of this phrase is the ONLY thing I have'nt heard ....YET!!!
p.s. You are showing your age........
'Twas none other than the 'so called 'MAN' at the top at the time - electronics ring a bell?? - who coined the phrase.......wait for the denials........
12.12.1991......"Your Safety Will Be Enhanced And It Will Cost You Less!"
Well, Industry People:-
- IS YOUR SAFETY ENHANCED??
- HAS IT COST YOU LESS???
The REPEAT of this phrase is the ONLY thing I have'nt heard ....YET!!!
p.s. You are showing your age........
Last edited by Ex FSO GRIFFO; 29th Sep 2006 at 12:30. Reason: To tell it like it is....
So forgive many of us for being a bit cynical when we see yet another scheme to make more money for the government by reducing service to the industry. Let me tell you right now - Sectors do not have time to provide a Flightwatch function.
Always ask yourself the question when a proposal comes along like this - Who proposed it and why?
Always ask yourself the question when a proposal comes along like this - Who proposed it and why?
I remember one of your collegues on these boards some months ago was, let's say, somewhat less than sympathetic about non-ATC staff being shown the door. Well, the chickens are coming home to roost. If you don't like it, you better act fast!
As to where did the proposal come from ? try, ex-ATC Managers who believe that AUSFIC do nothing and that we would all be better off without them ... a bit like 1991/92!!
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Peuce,
I don't have a bloody clue what you are on about.
ATC are hardly bullet proof - we have all seen that recently, and are far from oblivious to it.
The managers you speak of who dream up these schemes to give the government more money are the ones who are oblivious to the operational realities. That is exactly why these myriad of projects blow out in cost or time, or get shelved all together.
An interesting trend resulting from this is the number of managment/supervisor types who are scrambling to get back in to working traffic. Perhaps they just cannot swallow any more of the bull****?
You puzzle me when you say my head is in the sand - does this mean that you agree that ATC in fact CAN take on the AUSFIC role and still provide the same service all round? If so I would like to know if you are smoking the same blend dealt about in Canberra.
I don't have a bloody clue what you are on about.
ATC are hardly bullet proof - we have all seen that recently, and are far from oblivious to it.
The managers you speak of who dream up these schemes to give the government more money are the ones who are oblivious to the operational realities. That is exactly why these myriad of projects blow out in cost or time, or get shelved all together.
An interesting trend resulting from this is the number of managment/supervisor types who are scrambling to get back in to working traffic. Perhaps they just cannot swallow any more of the bull****?
You puzzle me when you say my head is in the sand - does this mean that you agree that ATC in fact CAN take on the AUSFIC role and still provide the same service all round? If so I would like to know if you are smoking the same blend dealt about in Canberra.