Was it today??
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Japan
Posts: 77
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Was it today??
Well in all the excitement of the past 17 years I've forgotten!
Go ahead. Make may day!!!....... somebody tell me was it today or yesterday.
Whatever it is/was, I suppose there will be effigies burning right across the world tonight/last night, and a million tears shed into beer glasses as the inevitable dissection goes on, and on, and on.......
We really pharqed them as promised. Here I am flying a heap of $hite in the land of the rising sun when it could have been domestic in Australia. Not even VB would have mer back in spite of being one of the party faithful.
So sad.
Go ahead. Make may day!!!....... somebody tell me was it today or yesterday.
Whatever it is/was, I suppose there will be effigies burning right across the world tonight/last night, and a million tears shed into beer glasses as the inevitable dissection goes on, and on, and on.......
We really pharqed them as promised. Here I am flying a heap of $hite in the land of the rising sun when it could have been domestic in Australia. Not even VB would have mer back in spite of being one of the party faithful.
So sad.
Yes. 
Those who ignore history do so at their own peril.
Those who ignore history do so at their own peril.
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: all over
Posts: 94
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Actually SM4 it was the 24th. And not just because of that, every thinking airline pilot should have Capn Bloggs post tattooed on the back of his/her hand. It has, especially for Australia, never been truer that history can warn and teach but only for those wanting to listen and learn.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Japan
Posts: 77
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
019360, Absolutely correct!! Go to the top of the class, and not a bad suggestion to have the tattoo just in case I make the same mistake again.
History taught me never to trust the union because its agenda may not be the same as mine or the best one. In this case it was certainly wide of the mark.
Great point you made.
History taught me never to trust the union because its agenda may not be the same as mine or the best one. In this case it was certainly wide of the mark.
Great point you made.
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: all over
Posts: 94
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hmmmmm JapJok....so if only you had known you could have acted differently than all of your fellow pilots agreed to in secret ballots? I would worry about that a little. This is not a day for cheap points scoring. As we speak the AWA time-bomb is ticking away underneath AIPA.
In fact the hypothetical tattoo we talk of is there to remind us that any time one pilot (or indeed a small group) decide to follow a different path than the vast majority of their fellows, then there is the potential for disaster. If you wish to preach the mantra of "I know best" then maybe, just maybe, your philosphy is part of the problem and not part of the solution.
Anyway, enjoy the day and safe flying.
In fact the hypothetical tattoo we talk of is there to remind us that any time one pilot (or indeed a small group) decide to follow a different path than the vast majority of their fellows, then there is the potential for disaster. If you wish to preach the mantra of "I know best" then maybe, just maybe, your philosphy is part of the problem and not part of the solution.
Anyway, enjoy the day and safe flying.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Japan
Posts: 77
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If only you had known how I did vote 019360, and I was one of the minority, a very small minority I believe, who voted against the course of action subsequently taken.
So how is the AWA time bomb different today from what it was last year or will be next year? The management has always wanted us for less, but now it's a different tool, the AWA.
Perhaps if the AIPA had admitted the Impulse/Jetstar pilots when requested instead of telling them "you are not real Qantas pilots," they may now have the extra muscle they need to fight this threat.
As for knowing best, I may not always be in that position, but neither was the union in 89, and there could be little convincing argument that they were.
Please do not confuse a majority voting in a particular way, and what is right, either for the majority or for any individual within the group.
No cheap points scoring intended, and I will enjoy my flying today and always, and hopefully I will contribute to keeping it safe.
So how is the AWA time bomb different today from what it was last year or will be next year? The management has always wanted us for less, but now it's a different tool, the AWA.
Perhaps if the AIPA had admitted the Impulse/Jetstar pilots when requested instead of telling them "you are not real Qantas pilots," they may now have the extra muscle they need to fight this threat.
As for knowing best, I may not always be in that position, but neither was the union in 89, and there could be little convincing argument that they were.
Please do not confuse a majority voting in a particular way, and what is right, either for the majority or for any individual within the group.
No cheap points scoring intended, and I will enjoy my flying today and always, and hopefully I will contribute to keeping it safe.
Last edited by JapJok; 24th Aug 2006 at 04:16.
Moderator
As disinformation and lack of timely information played a role at that time .. one can only imagine how a vehicle such as PPRuNe might have changed the course of Australian Industrial history ....
Join Date: May 2005
Location: oz (30% of the time)
Age: 62
Posts: 277
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I think it was summed up nicely on the 12 November 1989 by the then President of the AFAP:
Amen.
What of wage determination? There never was one. After all the righteous outbursts from the Airlines, Governments and its Ministers, the ACTU and the AIRC, the Americans and those others who joined them received salary rises of between 40 and 100%. Salaries for Airline pilots who now work in the Industry have been increased beyond their wildest dreams. The problem for management, the Government and the ACTU is that 1,300 pilots of the Federation and their families were not prepared to pay their price.
What of the union extermination ? A combination of the most abhorrent and anti-labour practices ever employed in the free world could not break the spirit, principle and integrity of over 80% of Australia’s domestic airline pilots and their families. In a country where mateship, and sticking by your mates is the quality most admired and respected, these are the people who have been put to the that test, and passed.
What of the union extermination ? A combination of the most abhorrent and anti-labour practices ever employed in the free world could not break the spirit, principle and integrity of over 80% of Australia’s domestic airline pilots and their families. In a country where mateship, and sticking by your mates is the quality most admired and respected, these are the people who have been put to the that test, and passed.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Japan
Posts: 77
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Is your nom de plume Jack Red or Jack the Red??
As a student of the 89 thing, and a winner according to you, but a loser according to me, I can tell you authoritively that there was a 30% pay rise awarded to pilots for a 30% increase in productivity, i.e., 40 hours a month (AFAP figure even though the companies disputed this and said it was 30/month) increased by 30% = 53.3, rounded up to 55 with overtime paid above that figure.
If you then flew 90 hours, it was an increase of 125% above the pre thing figure of 40, so would realistically attract an increase of 125% income. Why is there difficulty with that concept? My understanding is that the comanies weren't opposed to a pay rise but it had to fit "the accord", i.e., more money, more productivity, again a simple concept and one that they embraced.
"Salaries for Airline pilots who now work in the Industry have been increased beyond their wildest dreams. Except if you work for VB whose chief pilot sold his colleagues down the drain for a handsome holding in shares freeof charge but recently worth 20+ Million $$. VB pilots work for half that paid to QF pilots with no overtime provisions.
Those salaries "beyond their wildest dreams" are not as much as, for example, Cathay pays, but those enjoying those salaries don't feel they are being paid "beyond their wildest dreams".
I recently re-read an old diary written by my grandfather who fought at Gallipoli. In it he said that sticking by your mates was a fine ideal, but not realistic, especially when the Turks were shooting your mates, and if you didn't look after yourself first, then you would be shot also. A fine ideal indeed, but not always (or often)practical, especially if dud information had you headed for certain slaughter. Need I draw the obvious analogy??
The fact that 80% of Australia's airline pilots chose an alternative was never a problem for the managements and government. It was a bonus for the management; salaries cost them a fraction of what they had previously (2/3 the pilots doing 2.5 times the flying for an average of twice the previous salary). The government indicated that it was prepared to flex its muscle to reign in a 'rogue' union and read the riot act to other like minded unions. Hawke's standing improved enormously because he kept the accord intact against an attack by 'a privileged group of workers'.
As I said above, success oir failure is a matter for the individual to decide upon. We've all heard of winning the battle but losing the war.
There is something that is more highly admired in my home country than mateship and what it implies, and that is individualism and the ability to think for oneself when the $hite hits the fan. Do I follow my 'mates' to certain slaughter, or do I do what is required to survive? Easy decision.
Incidentally where is the "then president of the AFAP". Isn't he working for a sub standard salary at VB, one the chief pilot negotiated to improve his personal wealth by $$20 Million ++? Isn't he also the one who wouldn't take a backward step and insisted on almost 30% with no tradeoffs.....until it was obviously lost and then "just wanted to negotiate".
Amen also
As a student of the 89 thing, and a winner according to you, but a loser according to me, I can tell you authoritively that there was a 30% pay rise awarded to pilots for a 30% increase in productivity, i.e., 40 hours a month (AFAP figure even though the companies disputed this and said it was 30/month) increased by 30% = 53.3, rounded up to 55 with overtime paid above that figure.
If you then flew 90 hours, it was an increase of 125% above the pre thing figure of 40, so would realistically attract an increase of 125% income. Why is there difficulty with that concept? My understanding is that the comanies weren't opposed to a pay rise but it had to fit "the accord", i.e., more money, more productivity, again a simple concept and one that they embraced.
"Salaries for Airline pilots who now work in the Industry have been increased beyond their wildest dreams. Except if you work for VB whose chief pilot sold his colleagues down the drain for a handsome holding in shares freeof charge but recently worth 20+ Million $$. VB pilots work for half that paid to QF pilots with no overtime provisions.
Those salaries "beyond their wildest dreams" are not as much as, for example, Cathay pays, but those enjoying those salaries don't feel they are being paid "beyond their wildest dreams".
I recently re-read an old diary written by my grandfather who fought at Gallipoli. In it he said that sticking by your mates was a fine ideal, but not realistic, especially when the Turks were shooting your mates, and if you didn't look after yourself first, then you would be shot also. A fine ideal indeed, but not always (or often)practical, especially if dud information had you headed for certain slaughter. Need I draw the obvious analogy??
The fact that 80% of Australia's airline pilots chose an alternative was never a problem for the managements and government. It was a bonus for the management; salaries cost them a fraction of what they had previously (2/3 the pilots doing 2.5 times the flying for an average of twice the previous salary). The government indicated that it was prepared to flex its muscle to reign in a 'rogue' union and read the riot act to other like minded unions. Hawke's standing improved enormously because he kept the accord intact against an attack by 'a privileged group of workers'.
As I said above, success oir failure is a matter for the individual to decide upon. We've all heard of winning the battle but losing the war.
There is something that is more highly admired in my home country than mateship and what it implies, and that is individualism and the ability to think for oneself when the $hite hits the fan. Do I follow my 'mates' to certain slaughter, or do I do what is required to survive? Easy decision.
Incidentally where is the "then president of the AFAP". Isn't he working for a sub standard salary at VB, one the chief pilot negotiated to improve his personal wealth by $$20 Million ++? Isn't he also the one who wouldn't take a backward step and insisted on almost 30% with no tradeoffs.....until it was obviously lost and then "just wanted to negotiate".
Amen also
Last edited by JapJok; 24th Aug 2006 at 07:24.
Join Date: May 2005
Location: oz (30% of the time)
Age: 62
Posts: 277
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Jap Jok
Read it again Mate...........
...............and with all due respect to your grandfather, I'm glad I wasn't fighting side by side with him in NAM.
................could not break the spirit, principle and integrity of over 80% of Australia’s domestic airline pilots and their families. In a country where mateship, and sticking by your mates is the quality most admired and respected, these are the people who have been put to the that test, and passed.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Japan
Posts: 77
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
So red, presumably you've done sufficient scientific research to determine that
In a country where mateship, and sticking by your mates is the quality most admired and respected,
Would you care to publish the research references so that I can check for myself??
OK, I got it. It's your opinion and has no scientific basis.
Is that Pekenham you draw reference to?? Too bad if it was Vietnam, because I have mates who hold exactly the same sentiments as my grandfather, and that is look after yourself first
In a country where mateship, and sticking by your mates is the quality most admired and respected,
Would you care to publish the research references so that I can check for myself??
OK, I got it. It's your opinion and has no scientific basis.
Is that Pekenham you draw reference to?? Too bad if it was Vietnam, because I have mates who hold exactly the same sentiments as my grandfather, and that is look after yourself first
Join Date: May 2005
Location: oz (30% of the time)
Age: 62
Posts: 277
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Jap Jok mateship is not a science my friend. It is a mode of conduct among Australian men that stresses equality, friendship, and solidarity.
Indeed it was Vietnam to which I refer and I can only hope that your mates whom share the same sentiments as your grandfather are not in the military.
Indeed it was Vietnam to which I refer and I can only hope that your mates whom share the same sentiments as your grandfather are not in the military.
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: all over
Posts: 94
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
JapJok....you are protesting way too much. If you need to get something off your chest do it elsewhere. Professional help is always there if something is haunting you.
Almost all your former colleagues have lived with their choices and I still hold my head high. Don't rain on our picnic please. There are lessons to be learned and you know what they are. Small groups breaking away can almost always get a better deal here and there. but in the end when the whole structure dies (remember Ansett, TAA, EWA, IPEC) then its everyones loss. In the end it was just ahandful of "me first" guys who created the world we have today. There are bettwer worlds ahead....I hope....but they will come from professionalism and solidarity, not...."I just had to make a decision for my family"
Almost all your former colleagues have lived with their choices and I still hold my head high. Don't rain on our picnic please. There are lessons to be learned and you know what they are. Small groups breaking away can almost always get a better deal here and there. but in the end when the whole structure dies (remember Ansett, TAA, EWA, IPEC) then its everyones loss. In the end it was just ahandful of "me first" guys who created the world we have today. There are bettwer worlds ahead....I hope....but they will come from professionalism and solidarity, not...."I just had to make a decision for my family"
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Japan
Posts: 77
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
OK red, I now have it after lengthy explanation from you.
Mateship is a state of mind, the same state of mind the former CP of VB displayed (equality, friendship and soldarity) when he screwed his former mates to accept half the going rate so he could receive $20 M in shares!!
Equality, friendship and solidarity indeed! I still argue that it is the ability to think as an individual that is more highly regarded than the so called qualities of 'mateship'. Any loser can follow the leader, in some cases into oblivion.
013690, you guys always fall back on the 'help is available' line when you're cornered. Doesn't wash,sorry. None of the airlines you mention areout of business because of the events of which we write. Nice try, but fantasy. No further argument on that issue will be entertained becaus e you know you're talking bull$hit.
priapism, let's hope it doesn't degenerate into what you mention, but you make a valid point. Mob mentality is adangerous thing as many, including me, have found to our great cost. This thread was definitely not intended to be what you suggest.
Mateship is a state of mind, the same state of mind the former CP of VB displayed (equality, friendship and soldarity) when he screwed his former mates to accept half the going rate so he could receive $20 M in shares!!
Equality, friendship and solidarity indeed! I still argue that it is the ability to think as an individual that is more highly regarded than the so called qualities of 'mateship'. Any loser can follow the leader, in some cases into oblivion.
013690, you guys always fall back on the 'help is available' line when you're cornered. Doesn't wash,sorry. None of the airlines you mention areout of business because of the events of which we write. Nice try, but fantasy. No further argument on that issue will be entertained becaus e you know you're talking bull$hit.
priapism, let's hope it doesn't degenerate into what you mention, but you make a valid point. Mob mentality is adangerous thing as many, including me, have found to our great cost. This thread was definitely not intended to be what you suggest.
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: all over
Posts: 94
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Nevertheless, the current and next generation have to somehow work out how to build a better system. Can it work with a "me first" attitude? Isn't that what the AIPA guys acuse JPC of? How can you/we reconcile the need for solidarity (and yes it does often work) with individualism?