Eagle Airlines checks - sounds scary!!!
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Eagle Airlines checks - sounds scary!!!
I've got a CV in with Eagle but am a bit freaked by reports that heaps of their pilots are failing checks. I'm hearing from those that have gone before me that they range from new line pilots, established line pilots, command upgrades and even captains. It is a bit daunting for me as a wannabe. Is it because they do their checks in the aircraft versus a simulator like the others? I think that I would like to do a check in an aeroplane that I fly everyday instead of a sim which I have heard is harder to fly than the real thing. Origin do their checks in the aircraft without much reported drama. I would love to know what exactly is invlolved in a typical check in the 1900D. I'm still instructing MEIFR and wanna know what I can do to prepare myself in case I get an invite to join them!
I heard from a current Eagle pilot that an Eagle check is like being in an All Black front row. Only those in the scrum get to know what really goes on and the rest are too afraid to ask!!!
Are there any all blacks out there that wanna share?
I heard from a current Eagle pilot that an Eagle check is like being in an All Black front row. Only those in the scrum get to know what really goes on and the rest are too afraid to ask!!!
Are there any all blacks out there that wanna share?
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I don't think it's that bad. Quite similar to you're MEIR initial or renewal, but with an emphasis on CRM. As long as you're prepared you should be fine. The main draw back of not having a simulator is we don't get a chance to do refresher training like other airlines, and it's straight into the check, that's the bit that can catch you out. Although as you say, we are flying the aeroplane everyday, it would definitely be preferable to do checks in the sim. A good example is having to deal with the ridiculous amounts of traffic at Hamilton while handling an emergency. In a real emergency you would not have to worry about sequencing number four to the katana etc.
I certainly wouldn't let this put you off applying, just make sure you put in the hard yards when you get there, and ask for help if you need it. Of course, sometimes you just have a bad day on a check, and there's not much you can do about that.
Good luck
I certainly wouldn't let this put you off applying, just make sure you put in the hard yards when you get there, and ask for help if you need it. Of course, sometimes you just have a bad day on a check, and there's not much you can do about that.
Good luck
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I thought the whole idea of a checkride is to make it a bad day!!
Seriously though, I personally know two Guys, both with over 2500 hoursTT and over 500 Multi IFR who have been cut from line training at EAG in the last 6 months. For the rest of us at around 1200 hrs/200multi with applications in...it sounds pretty daunting!!
In my personal opinion, the only thing that could really prepare a GA pilot for EAG ops, is EAG ops.
Seriously though, I personally know two Guys, both with over 2500 hoursTT and over 500 Multi IFR who have been cut from line training at EAG in the last 6 months. For the rest of us at around 1200 hrs/200multi with applications in...it sounds pretty daunting!!
In my personal opinion, the only thing that could really prepare a GA pilot for EAG ops, is EAG ops.
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Wouldnt worry about being a low timer vs. high. Every situation is different but it seems that those who cant adapt adapt from whatever they spent the 2500hrs doing will have thier work cut out.
Company operating procedures are pretty detailed, combine this with someone who is still getting thier head around flying something a bit faster and higher than what they have been doing over the last few years and there will be a problem.
As has been mentioned even the best have thier off days and a sim for recurrent training (like most other airlines) would go alongway in helping. As a low time newbie I wouldnt worry, youll training will see you right just make sure you know the company sops inside out and dont get complacent in whatever your flying now.
Company operating procedures are pretty detailed, combine this with someone who is still getting thier head around flying something a bit faster and higher than what they have been doing over the last few years and there will be a problem.
As has been mentioned even the best have thier off days and a sim for recurrent training (like most other airlines) would go alongway in helping. As a low time newbie I wouldnt worry, youll training will see you right just make sure you know the company sops inside out and dont get complacent in whatever your flying now.
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In general, I think the low time guys find it a bit easier, simply because they are not as set in their ways. It's the old 'teaching an old dog new tricks' thing. It always comes down to the specific person, rather than their experience level, that's why training is provided (and these day, lots of it!) If you took the right pilot with 250 hours and a brand new MEIR, they would have no problems getting through. Whereas some with 3000+ hrs may struggle. Until very recently, it was almost unheard of for anyone to get chopped from eagle, and I don't know if anyone has an explanation for the recent spate. I think it is a function of the 'entry-level' nature of Eagle, which means most new hires don't yet have a proven airline background.
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I agree with cloud cutter.
The first check to line in a twin turbo prop, in a multi crew environment can be a big step up.
As long as you put the work in and dont upset anyone things will go fine
A good understanding and a high competence in the IFR environment does help a great deal so one can focus on flying the A/C
Remember that the check captain wants to pass you after all the company has only spent $20000 on your training!!!
its not like GA flight testing folks!!
Those i know including myself who put the yards in at the start and kept it up until the final check was over all passed first time.
Thats all there is to it.
The first check to line in a twin turbo prop, in a multi crew environment can be a big step up.
As long as you put the work in and dont upset anyone things will go fine
A good understanding and a high competence in the IFR environment does help a great deal so one can focus on flying the A/C
Remember that the check captain wants to pass you after all the company has only spent $20000 on your training!!!
its not like GA flight testing folks!!
Those i know including myself who put the yards in at the start and kept it up until the final check was over all passed first time.
Thats all there is to it.
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Agree with KE...any checkie worth their salt doesn't want to fail you.
I always say that check performance is a reflection on the training department. If too many are failing, either the system is failing the trainee (more likely) and the training captains need to take a close look at themselves, or the trainee is just not up to it (less likely in my opinion, but it does happen)
For goodness sake, don't let it put you off taking a job with them. It's part of being a professional pilot and you will be putting your licence on the line every 6 months for the rest of your carreer....get used to it!
You know you have turned a corner when you actually see a check as a learning opportunity and an chance to demonstrate your capabilities, rather than a knee trembling, fear fest where the nasty old checkie is out to get you.
We've all been there, and it takes some longer to get over it than others.
Good luck!
DC
I always say that check performance is a reflection on the training department. If too many are failing, either the system is failing the trainee (more likely) and the training captains need to take a close look at themselves, or the trainee is just not up to it (less likely in my opinion, but it does happen)
For goodness sake, don't let it put you off taking a job with them. It's part of being a professional pilot and you will be putting your licence on the line every 6 months for the rest of your carreer....get used to it!
You know you have turned a corner when you actually see a check as a learning opportunity and an chance to demonstrate your capabilities, rather than a knee trembling, fear fest where the nasty old checkie is out to get you.
We've all been there, and it takes some longer to get over it than others.
Good luck!
DC
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you will be putting your licence on the line every 6 months for the rest of your carreer....get used to it!
You know you have turned a corner when you actually see a check as a learning opportunity and an chance to demonstrate your capabilities, rather than a knee trembling, fear fest where the nasty old checkie is out to get you
You know you have turned a corner when you actually see a check as a learning opportunity and an chance to demonstrate your capabilities, rather than a knee trembling, fear fest where the nasty old checkie is out to get you
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Scary indeed
Haughtney, "crusty" checkers at CX, don't be absurd! 
Quite right with the "get used to it" advice, however there is only one person to fear when it comes to checks at Eagle, and his name is Chopper!! We all know who he is. There was a time when most young NZ pilots wanted to work for Eagle, then along came the chopper
He has almost single handedly changed Eagle's reputation, and not for the better.
Cloud, generally you have good, positive comments, (not at all like mine above ) but I really tire at hearing the 250 hour wonder pilot will so much more easily intergrate into a multi crew enviroment easier than a "stuck in their ways" 3000hour old dog! What a crock, I had close to those hours when I broke free of GA and had no problems whatsoever with the training, multi-crew transition, etc etc. And I'm an old dog! The more hours you have, means the more you have seen, which directly equates to what we mean when we say experience. Why do you think our crusty checkers up here lie awake at night thinking up nasties for the next check? Its so if a similar situation ever arises, you will probably have experienced it before, so its more familiar........In other words, you've got experience of this situation. I do believe that is a major failing of Eagle, not having a sim to put guys thru their paces, it is, I believe, the major leap forward in civil aviation safety, apart from the Chopper of course!!
Standing by with my flame retardant undies on..........
Nosey
Quite right with the "get used to it" advice, however there is only one person to fear when it comes to checks at Eagle, and his name is Chopper!! We all know who he is. There was a time when most young NZ pilots wanted to work for Eagle, then along came the chopper
He has almost single handedly changed Eagle's reputation, and not for the better. Cloud, generally you have good, positive comments, (not at all like mine above
) but I really tire at hearing the 250 hour wonder pilot will so much more easily intergrate into a multi crew enviroment easier than a "stuck in their ways" 3000hour old dog! What a crock, I had close to those hours when I broke free of GA and had no problems whatsoever with the training, multi-crew transition, etc etc. And I'm an old dog! The more hours you have, means the more you have seen, which directly equates to what we mean when we say experience. Why do you think our crusty checkers up here lie awake at night thinking up nasties for the next check? Its so if a similar situation ever arises, you will probably have experienced it before, so its more familiar........In other words, you've got experience of this situation. I do believe that is a major failing of Eagle, not having a sim to put guys thru their paces, it is, I believe, the major leap forward in civil aviation safety, apart from the Chopper of course!!Standing by with my flame retardant undies on..........
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He is no longer in a checking or training role (by his own choice). Although from what I saw, he was the best check captain we ever had. You have to keep standards high, and if that means people fail, then the standard they were operating at obviously wasn't high enough. I found him very fair and consistent, which is all you can really ask for.
I think you misunderstood what I said about 250 hr vs 3000 hr pilots. They were extreme cases. In general, I agree that the 3000 hr pilot from GA would normally find the transition easier, and be a better candidate. I was making a point about the aptitude of a pilot being an important consideration alongside experience (in response to the statement that several of the trainees who unfortunately haven't made it through recently, were high-time GA drivers). I guess we always lean towards the camp from which we came
I think you misunderstood what I said about 250 hr vs 3000 hr pilots. They were extreme cases. In general, I agree that the 3000 hr pilot from GA would normally find the transition easier, and be a better candidate. I was making a point about the aptitude of a pilot being an important consideration alongside experience (in response to the statement that several of the trainees who unfortunately haven't made it through recently, were high-time GA drivers). I guess we always lean towards the camp from which we came
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Some clairification is required me thinks!
CC- your last comment mate is way off the mark, perhaps you got chopper at the end of his stay! Where he was OK (not knocking the guy )
For all those worried about the EAG training and chopping relax. I admit it is a bit scary even for line guys/girls to see people getting chopped but how about we start looking at the actual problem, which isn't the training department.
New line F/o's are given 100 sectors MIN to get up to speed they are checked several times along the way to make sure they are coming up to speed before moving onto more indepth training. If they don't make standard they are trained untill they do. At the end you do your check to line which is just like any other airline check (some would say that this first check is the most prepared you will ever be for an EAG check because thats all you have been doing for 3 months). If you pass then congrads welcome aboard see you in 3 months for another check. If not you go back to training for a week or so and do another handling check prior to doing your check to line (the extra handling check is not pass fail) if you fail again your on your bike!
If it gets to the point where you lose your job you have to see it from the companies point of view, they have invested (by now) 4 months of training assests and time into you to get you online and you still cant pass. They are a company which has to make money and sinking $30-40000 into a guy who cant pass over and over dosen't make good business sense or safety!
I'm sure EAG guys would agree with me that its not the training its the interview process which should be finding the problem children before entering the company
CC- your last comment mate is way off the mark, perhaps you got chopper at the end of his stay! Where he was OK (not knocking the guy
)For all those worried about the EAG training and chopping relax. I admit it is a bit scary even for line guys/girls to see people getting chopped but how about we start looking at the actual problem, which isn't the training department.
New line F/o's are given 100 sectors MIN to get up to speed they are checked several times along the way to make sure they are coming up to speed before moving onto more indepth training. If they don't make standard they are trained untill they do. At the end you do your check to line which is just like any other airline check (some would say that this first check is the most prepared you will ever be for an EAG check because thats all you have been doing for 3 months). If you pass then congrads welcome aboard see you in 3 months for another check. If not you go back to training for a week or so and do another handling check prior to doing your check to line (the extra handling check is not pass fail) if you fail again your on your bike!
If it gets to the point where you lose your job you have to see it from the companies point of view, they have invested (by now) 4 months of training assests and time into you to get you online and you still cant pass. They are a company which has to make money and sinking $30-40000 into a guy who cant pass over and over dosen't make good business sense or safety!
I'm sure EAG guys would agree with me that its not the training its the interview process which should be finding the problem children before entering the company
Last edited by Hanz Blix; 2nd Aug 2006 at 22:44.
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New line F/o's are given 100 sectors MIN to get up to speed they are checked several times along the way to make sure they are coming up to speed before moving onto more indepth training.
First Jet job and I got 20..not because I was Chuck Yeagar...but because that was all you get before a line check
Here I was thinking it was a few circuits...20-30 sectors (a bit of pressure to get up to speed)..and then the check....gawd 100 sectors!! I cant believe it, how cossetted can you get! Not trying to ruffle Eagle feathers here...its just 100 sectors!!
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A ton!
I'm sure EAG guys would agree with me that its not the training its the interview process which should be finding the problem children before entering the company
With 100 sectors I should think its not the training! Air NS is mandated to give 75, CAA reg that one, and I felt that was more than quite enough. Next jobs a jet, 20 sectors to get up to speed for the check. Eagle use to give 50 sectors for training and had nowhere near the failure rate they have now, and that was on the Metro as well.
Problem children? I personally know of 5 guys in one round who would have been excellent candidates, all having flown RPT ops with well known GA operators, but one guy was cut because he forgot to bring his report card from school!! None of the others made it either, and of the 3 they did hire, 1 failed, and one was the biggest wayne kerr you ever met! He struggled mightly as well, so I think there is a small fault with the process there, 3 dayer that it is. Guess who was involved there........? As a side note, all 5 went into Air NS and all are doing well, go figure.
CC, quite right, aptitude has a part to play, and so does attitude. If the prospective pilot is willing to study hard, then they should be successful. Perhaps that catches new airline pilots out?
Nosey
With 100 sectors I should think its not the training! Air NS is mandated to give 75, CAA reg that one, and I felt that was more than quite enough. Next jobs a jet, 20 sectors to get up to speed for the check. Eagle use to give 50 sectors for training and had nowhere near the failure rate they have now, and that was on the Metro as well.
Problem children? I personally know of 5 guys in one round who would have been excellent candidates, all having flown RPT ops with well known GA operators, but one guy was cut because he forgot to bring his report card from school!! None of the others made it either, and of the 3 they did hire, 1 failed, and one was the biggest wayne kerr you ever met! He struggled mightly as well, so I think there is a small fault with the process there, 3 dayer that it is. Guess who was involved there........? As a side note, all 5 went into Air NS and all are doing well, go figure.
CC, quite right, aptitude has a part to play, and so does attitude. If the prospective pilot is willing to study hard, then they should be successful. Perhaps that catches new airline pilots out?
Nosey
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Sure there is some investment in the training of a newbie but there are paying customers in the back..or are they crash test dummies
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Yip, 50 was the norm when I started. The 100 they get now is partly because of GPS training, and partly because it was seen as necessary due to the lower experience of pilots coming through.
Nosey, you'll find that all new hire failures of late were very studious, and put in about as much work as you could expect of anyone. I'm not willing to comment further than that.
Nosey, you'll find that all new hire failures of late were very studious, and put in about as much work as you could expect of anyone. I'm not willing to comment further than that.
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Fair one
mattyj, don't you want a job there? The new pilot is fully trained in the aircraft curtouesy of the sim in Toronto, its line oriented flying they are teaching. The pax are perfectly safe, except perhaps when I was landing!
CC, fair comment, I certainly don't expect names, I was suggesting that the "I've made it, its easy from here on in" mindset could be catching some out.
Do you think the experience levels have really dropped? I beg to differ, as you do, but most Eagle pilots have traditionally been low timers, regardless of "era". The 1500 hour, 500 multi is probably the average time most drivers get into Eagle motors, so I don't accept lower experience as a cause. What I do believe is that in the past few years, less and less pilots from Eagles traditional recruiting grounds, Great Barrier, Mountain Air, Sunair, etc, have been getting the nod, with an increase of new hires with instructor backgrounds. I don't think you can discount the ATO, IFR experience these guys have, they are doing the job, albiet in a different aircraft, but for them, the "step up" is an easier one. I was told by a senior C and T when I was under line training that he could easily tell the background of the various pilots he trained, with a marked level of overall competence from the guys with the ATO background.
Food for thought for Eagle perhaps?
The new pilot is fully trained in the aircraft curtouesy of the sim in Toronto, its line oriented flying they are teaching. The pax are perfectly safe, except perhaps when I was landing! CC, fair comment, I certainly don't expect names, I was suggesting that the "I've made it, its easy from here on in" mindset could be catching some out.
Do you think the experience levels have really dropped? I beg to differ, as you do, but most Eagle pilots have traditionally been low timers, regardless of "era". The 1500 hour, 500 multi is probably the average time most drivers get into Eagle motors, so I don't accept lower experience as a cause. What I do believe is that in the past few years, less and less pilots from Eagles traditional recruiting grounds, Great Barrier, Mountain Air, Sunair, etc, have been getting the nod, with an increase of new hires with instructor backgrounds. I don't think you can discount the ATO, IFR experience these guys have, they are doing the job, albiet in a different aircraft, but for them, the "step up" is an easier one. I was told by a senior C and T when I was under line training that he could easily tell the background of the various pilots he trained, with a marked level of overall competence from the guys with the ATO background.
Food for thought for Eagle perhaps?
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Alright someone mentioned the 3 day EAG interview. It's been very quiet on that issue for a while on pprune, so begin.........
"Well I walked into my interview as the guy before me came out looking pale and bloody old seagull was sitting there........"
"Well I walked into my interview as the guy before me came out looking pale and bloody old seagull was sitting there........"
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Nosey, bang on! i just didn't want to say it but you are rite GUys/girls with prior ATO training tend to fit in alot quicker and they also don't have that instructor mentallity ingrained (my ways rite yours isn't).
The fact that its now 100 sectors because of gps training dosnt mean much, guys online get about 3 approaches before doing the check and some have not done any prior to the check. Its just extra sectors to ensure guys get through! Hardly the image everybody thinks eag have of been choppers.
Like I said earlier the interview process needs to change (I believe they are trying too) less tech stuff and more personality interigation might show up problems before they get the nood.
GUys/girls with prior ATO training tend to fit in alot quicker and they also don't have that instructor mentallity ingrained (my ways rite yours isn't).The fact that its now 100 sectors because of gps training dosnt mean much, guys online get about 3 approaches before doing the check and some have not done any prior to the check. Its just extra sectors to ensure guys get through! Hardly the image everybody thinks eag have of been choppers.
Like I said earlier the interview process needs to change (I believe they are trying too) less tech stuff and more personality interigation
might show up problems before they get the nood.