What price a human life?
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the taxpayers foot the bill
As a taxpayer I say fair enough but the chains must not be broken....ie DMO's the can use experience and have enough aviation knowledge to make a correct call to task a flight that may not get to the patient.
As a taxpayer I say fair enough but the chains must not be broken....ie DMO's the can use experience and have enough aviation knowledge to make a correct call to task a flight that may not get to the patient.
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Originally Posted by 737opsguy
Whilst I am not a commerical pilot and work in management, my personal opinion would be not to go. If this flight was a standard passenger charter my guess would be that it would be a no-go from the start. Just because its a medical scenario does not mean that the safety standard for you, your crew and your aircraft is reduced. This is a harsh call because of the situation but as Wizofoz said, the price of one life is not risking the lives of three more.
Originally Posted by bushy
Andy RR
Your first sentence is WRONG WRONG WRONG!!!!!
People pay huge taxes, and expect reasonable support from essentail service providers in return. Not just within the J curve.
This post indicates that adequate resources are not properly provided...
Your first sentence is WRONG WRONG WRONG!!!!!
People pay huge taxes, and expect reasonable support from essentail service providers in return. Not just within the J curve.
This post indicates that adequate resources are not properly provided...
Whatever your philosophy in who provides what at how much cost and who pays, there are always risks that the huge distances involved preclude services from being available. Short of having a fully equipped hospital at every campsite in the desert, or an ambulance following every traveller along the Gunbarrel Highway, it is impossible to guarantee a level of emergency services response. Therefore, "there is a risk that emergency help may not always be available"
You choose to go to remote places - you choose to accept that risk, knowingly or otherwise.
Thread Starter
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..and the winner is...
Thanks to all those who filed a 'thought' in response to my $64,000 question.
In my experience in aeromed. flying (years) this one night perhaps more than any other, had me doing some pretty heavy risk-analysis type thinking, let alone philosophising about the '..value of a life..'
Interestingly, whilst there has been lots of comment about the issues involved, not too many have put their hand up and stated their own personal go, no-go position, given the information provided.
Before I detail just how the 'op' finished, let me state that at all times the flight could have been conducted within the 'law'. There was never any question of this. There is no pressure implied or felt by me to break the rules in this game.
Having said that, from the start it was always going to be a logistical and operational nightmare. From the outset, I couldn't help but picture all of those holes in the swiss cheese lining up just for me.
Let me also state that never in my own personal experience have I ever been asked to 'please explain' why a) a task couldn't be completed, i.e., a patient not reached/collected due to wx - it does happen..fog, low cloud, etc.., after deciding to head out for a look, or b) why a task was not accepted, i.e., decided not to lauch (rare) because of conditions.
There have been lots of valid points raised and suggestions made on this one, and in the heat of the moment, all of these considerations need to be weighed in the scales of good judgement.
As it turned out, I decided to go out for a 'look', regardless of the 'cost' of the op. Believing it was an exercise in futility notwithstanding, the fact was I didn't have anybody remotely qualified to offer an educated opinion of the cloud ceiling above my destination - and in my mind, this left a shred of possibility. It was always going to be an uncomfortable, unpleasant, l o n g shift, potentially ending up causing logistical headaches for the company the next day were we to end up at our capital city alternate - with or without the patient/s.
HOWEVER, after preparing the a/c for 'launch', the nurse and I at the airport waiting, the Doctor then arrived and shortly afterward, whilst we were still conversing about the issues of the op., received a phone call from the nurse caring for the patient. The 'emergency' had effectively 'passed', and whilst the doc was still keen to go, the now downgraded priority meant I was no longer prepared to go. The 'weight' had shifted, the goal posts moved.
What I would have been prepared to subject myself, the aircraft and the crew to for an 'emergency', I wasn't prepared to subject them to for anything less.
One for the scrapbook..
PS At last report, patient/s are doing well
In my experience in aeromed. flying (years) this one night perhaps more than any other, had me doing some pretty heavy risk-analysis type thinking, let alone philosophising about the '..value of a life..'
Interestingly, whilst there has been lots of comment about the issues involved, not too many have put their hand up and stated their own personal go, no-go position, given the information provided.
Before I detail just how the 'op' finished, let me state that at all times the flight could have been conducted within the 'law'. There was never any question of this. There is no pressure implied or felt by me to break the rules in this game.
Having said that, from the start it was always going to be a logistical and operational nightmare. From the outset, I couldn't help but picture all of those holes in the swiss cheese lining up just for me.
Let me also state that never in my own personal experience have I ever been asked to 'please explain' why a) a task couldn't be completed, i.e., a patient not reached/collected due to wx - it does happen..fog, low cloud, etc.., after deciding to head out for a look, or b) why a task was not accepted, i.e., decided not to lauch (rare) because of conditions.
There have been lots of valid points raised and suggestions made on this one, and in the heat of the moment, all of these considerations need to be weighed in the scales of good judgement.
As it turned out, I decided to go out for a 'look', regardless of the 'cost' of the op. Believing it was an exercise in futility notwithstanding, the fact was I didn't have anybody remotely qualified to offer an educated opinion of the cloud ceiling above my destination - and in my mind, this left a shred of possibility. It was always going to be an uncomfortable, unpleasant, l o n g shift, potentially ending up causing logistical headaches for the company the next day were we to end up at our capital city alternate - with or without the patient/s.
HOWEVER, after preparing the a/c for 'launch', the nurse and I at the airport waiting, the Doctor then arrived and shortly afterward, whilst we were still conversing about the issues of the op., received a phone call from the nurse caring for the patient. The 'emergency' had effectively 'passed', and whilst the doc was still keen to go, the now downgraded priority meant I was no longer prepared to go. The 'weight' had shifted, the goal posts moved.
What I would have been prepared to subject myself, the aircraft and the crew to for an 'emergency', I wasn't prepared to subject them to for anything less.
One for the scrapbook..
PS At last report, patient/s are doing well
Grandpa Aerotart
Job well done in all regards I suggest.
Once upon a time I was a CP of an international aeromed op.
My view is;
1/. Never allow yourself to become emotionally involved with the patient or their condition...sometimes hard especially when children involved.
2/. Never seriously risk more lives to save one. I say 'seriously' because I accept that there is some risk just in getting out of bed in the morning and that one person's idea of 'risk' is purely subjective and heavily dependant on experience. I have flown through the PNG highlands at night and landed on an unlighted strip to bring urgent medical aid to someone who was not going to see dawn without it...I didn't feel the risk was excessive at the time...and still don't near 20 years later.
3/. Patient's condition usually worsen at night (a biorythm thing) and Doctors/Nurses are just as unsure at night as mere mortals...i.e. they are more likely to press the 'panic' button at night than in daytime.
4/. If the aeroplane and crew are up to the task 'not going for a look' with a good plan 'B' is never an option for med 1 cases.
Once upon a time I was a CP of an international aeromed op.
My view is;
1/. Never allow yourself to become emotionally involved with the patient or their condition...sometimes hard especially when children involved.
2/. Never seriously risk more lives to save one. I say 'seriously' because I accept that there is some risk just in getting out of bed in the morning and that one person's idea of 'risk' is purely subjective and heavily dependant on experience. I have flown through the PNG highlands at night and landed on an unlighted strip to bring urgent medical aid to someone who was not going to see dawn without it...I didn't feel the risk was excessive at the time...and still don't near 20 years later.
3/. Patient's condition usually worsen at night (a biorythm thing) and Doctors/Nurses are just as unsure at night as mere mortals...i.e. they are more likely to press the 'panic' button at night than in daytime.
4/. If the aeroplane and crew are up to the task 'not going for a look' with a good plan 'B' is never an option for med 1 cases.
Last edited by Chimbu chuckles; 20th Jul 2006 at 15:14.
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Good story A31J. It must be hell of a balancing act making such decisions in what is a risky industry. Balancing the likelihood of retiring against the likelihood of earning the name "Seagull"* I spent some time once in the aeroclub bar in Kalgoorlie commiserating with a charter pilot who had ambitions of becoming a relieving pilot for the local RFDS. They had given him a hypothetical, sick kiddie, crap weather, landing on the highway under car headlights. He said he'd GO, and they said, "don't call us, we'll call you..."
The other view is all that would have been required to guarantee the safety of all involved is to have E airspace down to 1200 AGL and remove the green lines off the ERC chart. Would that have affected your decision?
*Seagull: Have to throw a rock at him to make him fly...
The other view is all that would have been required to guarantee the safety of all involved is to have E airspace down to 1200 AGL and remove the green lines off the ERC chart. Would that have affected your decision?
*Seagull: Have to throw a rock at him to make him fly...
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Having flown aero med. for a few years (a few years ago), I feel the condition of the patient should have no bearing on the flight.
Whether it be a broken toe or a heart attack, the weather condtions, LSALT etc. don't change.
You can either go or not.
Having left that type of flying a few years ago I believe some operators refrain from telling the pilots the condition of the patient to avoid pressuring them into the flight.
I know a few pilots who have paid the price for pressing on.
" there are bold pilots and there are old pilots but no old, bold pilots "
Whether it be a broken toe or a heart attack, the weather condtions, LSALT etc. don't change.
You can either go or not.
Having left that type of flying a few years ago I believe some operators refrain from telling the pilots the condition of the patient to avoid pressuring them into the flight.
I know a few pilots who have paid the price for pressing on.
" there are bold pilots and there are old pilots but no old, bold pilots "
Bottums Up
- If you don't think you'll be fit for the duration of the flight - don't go.
- If you can't carry fuel for an alternate - don't go.
- Logistics of what might happen to the next day's operations are for Ops to worry about, not you, though alerting them of the possibility is sound practice.
- Logisticts of the doctor's next duty is for the medico ops people to worry about.
- The cost of the flight is not your concern, from an operational (will I or won't I) perspective.
Short of the possiblity of fatigue, I didn't see anything in your original post that said, "don't go". Sure you may not have gotten in and may have ended up at an alternate. But you may have completed the retrieval quite successfully.
By all means inform Ops folk that the probability of success, because of x, y & z isn't good. Your responsibilty is to decide if you can get from A to B/C and then to A/Alternate safely. If so, go, if not, don't go.
