Such is my life
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And of course that's all rubbish too, but see how easy it is to type cast someone because of his previous background? Once in a proper airline, any attitude problems are usually sorted out during the simulator phase and apart from the odd strange individual that slips through the system and becomes a real bastard once he gains the LH seat, the system usually weeds the crook guys out
The old adage that under stress you fall back onto what you know rang true in a number of incidents
I would say its overly simplistic to label ex-mil pilots with the "wrong stuff"..even though through most of their mil career they have been reinforced with the maxim "you are better, faster, and more able to kill the opponent/get the job done".
My own personal experience with mil guys is somewhat mixed, in point of fact, the fast jet guys to a man have been brilliant in almost all aspects, its been the ex C130/Nimrod/E3 drivers I've worked with that have been a little less able (or willing) to cope with a multi-crew environmet
Err... fellow pilots, Rodney is having a go.
Having a go at his fellow airline pilots that did not come from the Air Force!
Please, instead of just following your instinct and attacking him, how about asking him to elaborate?
Having a go at his fellow airline pilots that did not come from the Air Force!
Please, instead of just following your instinct and attacking him, how about asking him to elaborate?
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Because of my Air Force career I am a little bit less well off financially than my compatriots..
Training Cost:
RAAF- $0
GA - $50/60k
First Job:
RAAF - PC-9 out of Pearce WA (north Perth) - 50/60K
GA - C206 in Halls creek WA (middle of nowhere) - 28k ( if that)
First Turbine:
RAAF - see first job
GA - anywhere up to 5-10 years
Time earning less than 50k
RAAF - post initial training
GA - maybe 6/7 years before get respectable GA position or Regional
Money spent on endorsments to further ones career post training
RAAF - PC-9 $0
BAE HAWK $0
FA 18 or F111 $0
maybe later a BBJ (see free 737 endo)
GA - $1200 PA31
- $5000/10000 turbo prop regional etc
- $30,000 for B737 or A320 endo
note pay does not become respectable till you acheive this level.
Money spent relocating when required to move for work
RAAF - $0
GA - $1000 plus moving car/house contents/rent and bond etc
So the RAAFy finishes his/her ROSO at 30 and has forked out nothing and earned no less than $60k (and prob up to $90k) for the last ten years post initial training. The GA guy earned rubbish pay for 5 years and after forking out over $100k to get where they are now could be on $80k flying a B737 or equivalent. The RAAF pilot unless they got a cadetship with QF would be heaps better off financially. Not even close. Also it must be tough when the worst basing is TINDAL on good pay and conditions. So the GA pilot not only contends with the fiancial hardships of making the big airline, but once he gets there he gets the pleasure of flying with pilots that don't have any respect for other peoples experience except their own (military or nothing from the some RAAFies)
To all those ex RAAFies that think they did it tough, poor babies
Try living in accommodation that housing commission tenants would refuse, hundreds of miles from the nearest town working for employers that think the award is a joke.
Try flying beaten up 25-30 year old piston equipment from dirt strips in all weather conditions.
Got to stop typing now I'm getting tears all over the keyboard I feel so sorry for him and all he's had to endure
Try flying beaten up 25-30 year old piston equipment from dirt strips in all weather conditions.
Got to stop typing now I'm getting tears all over the keyboard I feel so sorry for him and all he's had to endure
Thread Starter
Elaborate I shall.
I'm glad some people such as Capt Claret and co can see what I was getting at. I guess my comment regarding flying airliners does look like a bit of a whinge.
My elaboration is such - When I first joined the airlines 7 years ago I was much oldr than the guys I was flying with. They were to a large degree young captains who were doing estremely well financially. Good blokes they are too. I felt regretful at the time that maybe, just maybe I had taken the wrong career choice.
Now with the state of aviation as it is worldwide, and particularly in Oz, my reflections with hindsight allow me to see that I have indeed been very lucky to have had the career I have had.
No I am not poor, but I fly with some extremely fortunate (financially) people.
As Capt Claret was bright enough to see, my post was merely a reflection on my past and the fact that I now have no regrets. I am very content and I am tremendously satisfied with where i am now in my airline job. Further to my reflection - this IS just a job - the RAAF was never just a job.
I DO CONCEDE THAT THOSE OF YOU WHO TOOK MY MUSINGS THE WRONG WAY WERE POSSIBLY LEAD TO DO SO BY MY SEEMINGLY POOR CHOICE OF WORDS IN MY LAST REFLECTION. FOR THAT I APOLOGISE.
It is interesting to note that some people were able to extract my true intent, but the majority went on the attack. Sadly I feel that the Dunnunda site has become so vitriolic that attack without thought has become the name of the game.
Arm out the window - I know you, like you and respect you (how is FNQ by the way my friend) but I am very disappointed in your attacking reply. I thought you were smart enough to see my intent. And I always thought you were impossible to rile. You are too nice a guy. Maybe you had a wine or two.
I love my airline life, but it has made me realise how good a military flying career is.
Dr Shmoo - you are not worth replying to.
I'm glad some people such as Capt Claret and co can see what I was getting at. I guess my comment regarding flying airliners does look like a bit of a whinge.
My elaboration is such - When I first joined the airlines 7 years ago I was much oldr than the guys I was flying with. They were to a large degree young captains who were doing estremely well financially. Good blokes they are too. I felt regretful at the time that maybe, just maybe I had taken the wrong career choice.
Now with the state of aviation as it is worldwide, and particularly in Oz, my reflections with hindsight allow me to see that I have indeed been very lucky to have had the career I have had.
No I am not poor, but I fly with some extremely fortunate (financially) people.
As Capt Claret was bright enough to see, my post was merely a reflection on my past and the fact that I now have no regrets. I am very content and I am tremendously satisfied with where i am now in my airline job. Further to my reflection - this IS just a job - the RAAF was never just a job.
I DO CONCEDE THAT THOSE OF YOU WHO TOOK MY MUSINGS THE WRONG WAY WERE POSSIBLY LEAD TO DO SO BY MY SEEMINGLY POOR CHOICE OF WORDS IN MY LAST REFLECTION. FOR THAT I APOLOGISE.
It is interesting to note that some people were able to extract my true intent, but the majority went on the attack. Sadly I feel that the Dunnunda site has become so vitriolic that attack without thought has become the name of the game.
Arm out the window - I know you, like you and respect you (how is FNQ by the way my friend) but I am very disappointed in your attacking reply. I thought you were smart enough to see my intent. And I always thought you were impossible to rile. You are too nice a guy. Maybe you had a wine or two.
I love my airline life, but it has made me realise how good a military flying career is.
Dr Shmoo - you are not worth replying to.
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I guess my comment regarding flying airliners does look like a bit of a whinge.
It is interesting to note that some people were able to extract my true intent
Sure you can say now that you mislead..or were ambiguous with your observations, but what else do you expect? there are plenty of people in a far worse situation than your good self, and with a few vague..yet specific comments you gave a false impression.
I'm afraid to say in my opinion, you deserved to get flamed for what you said.
Thread Starter
Okay, I tried to be nice whilst explaining that I didn't intend to say something that sounded like a whinge, but rather was a reflection that I have been rather fortunate.
But Haughtney, you still want to have a go at me.
So now I won't be nice. Sod off ya pommy git. He is a sheepshagger
Woomera
But Haughtney, you still want to have a go at me.
So now I won't be nice. Sod off ya pommy git. He is a sheepshagger
Woomera
Thread Starter
You may as well ban me woomera. Rodney's not coming back.
Ban you why?
Why not think up a new handle and come back with a clean slate so to speak?
Woomera
Ban you why?
Why not think up a new handle and come back with a clean slate so to speak?
Woomera
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...onya bike then ya cabbage!!!!!...I was actually enjoying reading this until he spit the dummy.......poofta!!!...
Can you be just a little gentle with the new chum?
Woomera
Can you be just a little gentle with the new chum?
Woomera
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Rodney, Rodney, Rodney
You're now discovering the limitations of the written word...lacking, as it can be, in nuance.
Slaming drshmoo is counterproductive because what he is stating is extremely accurate in a simplistic broad brush comparison of the respective career paths of the average mil pilot vs the average civvy.
But to your initial post.
Of itself innocuous enough...but plenty of civvies don't make it to an airline job until a comparable age...and as Drshmoo indicates they usually had a tougher time financially enroute.
Less well off than the small % of civil pilots who fluked an airline job at an early age and in a rapidly expanding airline maybe, but no worse off than most and probably better off than many given the factors outlined by Drshmoo. Comparing your situation to the minority is just plain dumb. I assume you're in VB or Jetstar if you're comparing yourself to a largish number of young captains....even they do not fully realise how lucky thay have been.
So? I know of copilots in their late 50s flying with captains in their early 30s and neither was ever in the mil. It can be as simple as the copilot was unlucky in his career...plenty of Captains have lost their jobs because companies go broke or retrench and they have been employed at the bottom of a seniority list and won't make it back to the LHS before 60...or in a time frame that makes the company they NOW work for inclined to promote them...or they lost jobs as fairly senior FOs and with no command time have only been able to find employment as an FO....or they just can't be bothered making the effort again at their stage of life and are happy to see out ther career from the cheap seat...or they just were not good enough. It happens.
This is the doozy. It can be read in two very different ways.
1/. Gee I am glad I had a wonderfull time flying mil...this airline flying is boring and being an FO is a pain but I wouldn't have missed the excitment of mil flying for anything. I think that is what you meant.
2/. Thank god for my superior military training because these young civvy captains don't know ****e from good brown clay. Unfortunatly this is a fairly prevalent attitude among too many ex mil pilots when they first leave the military. It can take years before they lose that attitude and in the meantime they give all mil pilots a very bad reputation. I tend to think, after a few decades in this industry, that there are fairly even numbers of dickheads in both camps....and I have flown with more than my fair share of both...it's more a personality type than a background thing.
So please don't desert PPrune just yet...perhaps just be a little more circumspect before hitting submit...and recognise that there are plenty worse off than yourself.
You're now discovering the limitations of the written word...lacking, as it can be, in nuance.
Slaming drshmoo is counterproductive because what he is stating is extremely accurate in a simplistic broad brush comparison of the respective career paths of the average mil pilot vs the average civvy.
But to your initial post.
Because of my Air Force career I joined the airlines a little older than my compatriots.
Because of my Air Force career I am a little bit less well off financially than my compatriots..
Because of my Air Force career I am still an F/O.
Because of my Air Force career I am very often the oldest on the crew.
Every day I fly airliners I thank God more and more for my Air Force career.
1/. Gee I am glad I had a wonderfull time flying mil...this airline flying is boring and being an FO is a pain but I wouldn't have missed the excitment of mil flying for anything. I think that is what you meant.
2/. Thank god for my superior military training because these young civvy captains don't know ****e from good brown clay. Unfortunatly this is a fairly prevalent attitude among too many ex mil pilots when they first leave the military. It can take years before they lose that attitude and in the meantime they give all mil pilots a very bad reputation. I tend to think, after a few decades in this industry, that there are fairly even numbers of dickheads in both camps....and I have flown with more than my fair share of both...it's more a personality type than a background thing.
So please don't desert PPrune just yet...perhaps just be a little more circumspect before hitting submit...and recognise that there are plenty worse off than yourself.
Sorry if I've hurt your feelings, Rodney - I was sure the opening post was a wind-up to arc up the military vs. GA 'debate'.
To me, it came across as "Here's a number of reasons why I'm worse off than the people I fly with, and the RAAF was better than where I am now." - obviously that wasn't what you meant to say.
Metro man:
"Try living in accommodation that housing commission tenants would refuse, hundreds of miles from the nearest town working for employers that think the award is a joke.
Try flying beaten up 25-30 year old piston equipment from dirt strips in all weather conditions." - apart from the bit about the award (no complaints about the pay), that describes the Caribou detachment in Timor pretty well, apart from the guns, and the aircraft were older - still, we signed up, so 'I no complain', as Con the Fruiterer would say.
To me, it came across as "Here's a number of reasons why I'm worse off than the people I fly with, and the RAAF was better than where I am now." - obviously that wasn't what you meant to say.
Metro man:
"Try living in accommodation that housing commission tenants would refuse, hundreds of miles from the nearest town working for employers that think the award is a joke.
Try flying beaten up 25-30 year old piston equipment from dirt strips in all weather conditions." - apart from the bit about the award (no complaints about the pay), that describes the Caribou detachment in Timor pretty well, apart from the guns, and the aircraft were older - still, we signed up, so 'I no complain', as Con the Fruiterer would say.
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Ahh Timor.... all I wanted was a fan!
Wonder if the skid marks are still there from the STOL STOL Bou.
Only aircraft that I know, that took off with the park brake on without anyone realising (Wet grass) and landed with brakes firmly fixed in the static position, unfortunately NOT on wet grass
in that order!
At least I have the pics, but it wasn't me.
What was this thread about again?
Wonder if the skid marks are still there from the STOL STOL Bou.
Only aircraft that I know, that took off with the park brake on without anyone realising (Wet grass) and landed with brakes firmly fixed in the static position, unfortunately NOT on wet grass
in that order!At least I have the pics, but it wasn't me.
What was this thread about again?
I have to wonder at why Rodney has explained his writings but guys are still reading their own inferences into his words.
Where did he attack DR Shmoo please Woomera? Dr Shmoo seemed to give us all the reasons why HE feels he may have chosen the wrong career path. I think Woomera if you read Dr Shmoos post and his last comment it is highly offensive to all the ex and currently serving RAAFies out there. What a disgusting last line. Rodney could have fired off at that but chose not to I believe. Just said Not worth responding to.
Dr Shmoo - try six months in Iraq without family, without your little boy to read a story too, without your little girl to have a cuddle with. Without a weekend off to cruise down the coast and have a few beers after a surf. It ain't much fun mate. Yes all your post regarding the monetary aspects is good and accurate. But my situation is exactly the same as Rodney's. I am in KA and I fly with Captains in their 20s and early 30s who have made good coin here - many of whom joined Ansett at about twenty two. Nearly EVERY ex RAAFie is behind these guys money wise.
At no stage did Rodney say he was poor, at no stage did he say he was better than his civvie comrades, at no stage did he slam anyone, at no stage did he show disrespect to his captains.. As far as I read it he just expressed that airlines are okay, but he loved his military career despite the small negatives regarding joining the airlines.
Most of the attacks on him seem to have come from Wannabees who saw him as ungrateful for having a great airline job. Gotta admit it could be read that way, but that is not how I first saw it.
Dr Shmuck - give a defence force recruiting office a call, or don't you believe your own numbers.
Come back Rodney
Where did he attack DR Shmoo please Woomera? Dr Shmoo seemed to give us all the reasons why HE feels he may have chosen the wrong career path. I think Woomera if you read Dr Shmoos post and his last comment it is highly offensive to all the ex and currently serving RAAFies out there. What a disgusting last line. Rodney could have fired off at that but chose not to I believe. Just said Not worth responding to.
Dr Shmoo - try six months in Iraq without family, without your little boy to read a story too, without your little girl to have a cuddle with. Without a weekend off to cruise down the coast and have a few beers after a surf. It ain't much fun mate. Yes all your post regarding the monetary aspects is good and accurate. But my situation is exactly the same as Rodney's. I am in KA and I fly with Captains in their 20s and early 30s who have made good coin here - many of whom joined Ansett at about twenty two. Nearly EVERY ex RAAFie is behind these guys money wise.
At no stage did Rodney say he was poor, at no stage did he say he was better than his civvie comrades, at no stage did he slam anyone, at no stage did he show disrespect to his captains.. As far as I read it he just expressed that airlines are okay, but he loved his military career despite the small negatives regarding joining the airlines.
Most of the attacks on him seem to have come from Wannabees who saw him as ungrateful for having a great airline job. Gotta admit it could be read that way, but that is not how I first saw it.
Dr Shmuck - give a defence force recruiting office a call, or don't you believe your own numbers.
Come back Rodney
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Whilst I read Rodney's post as a positive reflection of his career choices........ I must say that there are not many airline pilots who thank god for their GA career!
Rodney,
The young captains that you find yourself working under are the very lucky few. What you don't see at work are the hundreds of pilots that started flying at the same time as you (at a very large personal expense) and never made it to an airline.
Rodney,
The young captains that you find yourself working under are the very lucky few. What you don't see at work are the hundreds of pilots that started flying at the same time as you (at a very large personal expense) and never made it to an airline.
Grandpa Aerotart
I do!!!
I must admit when I read the first post my initial reaction was negative...so I posted nothing.
Trevor just goes to show that the airforce training is not always free...if a war comes up you're expected to attend.
I must admit when I read the first post my initial reaction was negative...so I posted nothing.
Trevor just goes to show that the airforce training is not always free...if a war comes up you're expected to attend.
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Dear Trevor
I would like to ammend my last line of previous post to read doing it "financially" tough. My post was soley with reference to being financially worse off for joining the RAAF. The pilots you fly with that were in Ansett at 22 then got glory jobs in Asia, good on them but they are an excemption rather than the rule. Thats awesome for them and you probably are behind these guys money wise and so is the majority of your fellow aviators.
Your reference to time in IRAQ must have been horrible away from your loved ones - noted. But the genre of my thread was in reference to financially doing it tough, which when you went to IRAQ, you were duely well remunerated (yes one cannot get paid enough when at war - I agree).
The figures I mentioned in reagard to the RAAF pay are reasonably current. I have many current RAAF mates. Please correct me if I am wrong
Dear Rodney
Thanks for replying with "not replying" - so you did reply.
Dear RAAFies, you have all done hard yards and have had great training and put in lots of trime and effort, and are probably great pilots. I don't disagree with that. I am just sick of people who trained for free under great conditions having a sook cause someone had a gravy train ride and now they percieve that they did it tough Financially. If you guys weren't in the RAAF, do you think that it would be a well paid job then straight into the airlines? Earning the great pay and conditions that that entails? or would you be like the rest (and majority of OZ aviators) doing it tough climbing the tree of experience to get to the Big pay airline? It is fairly naive to think ones potential civilian career would be an equivalent gravy train ride like those 22yo ex Ansett drivers that are doing so well overseas.
Why is it a problem to have younger Captains? In every different career choice (flying or otherwise), different people will get to where they are with different paths under different timelines. As long as they are qualified to be there then deal with it. I fly with a younger captain every now and then in her mid 20's and she is nothing short of brilliant (and a girl but thats another thread). That afformentioned captain has done all the hard yards and ammassed a wealth of experience at her young age - it can and will be done and good luck to them.
To those in the great airline jet jobs around the world, regardless of their background enjoy the job and don't take it for granted.
Woomera - thanks for understanding the intent of my post and defending it as required
I would like to ammend my last line of previous post to read doing it "financially" tough. My post was soley with reference to being financially worse off for joining the RAAF. The pilots you fly with that were in Ansett at 22 then got glory jobs in Asia, good on them but they are an excemption rather than the rule. Thats awesome for them and you probably are behind these guys money wise and so is the majority of your fellow aviators.
Your reference to time in IRAQ must have been horrible away from your loved ones - noted. But the genre of my thread was in reference to financially doing it tough, which when you went to IRAQ, you were duely well remunerated (yes one cannot get paid enough when at war - I agree).
The figures I mentioned in reagard to the RAAF pay are reasonably current. I have many current RAAF mates. Please correct me if I am wrong
Dear Rodney
Thanks for replying with "not replying" - so you did reply.
Dear RAAFies, you have all done hard yards and have had great training and put in lots of trime and effort, and are probably great pilots. I don't disagree with that. I am just sick of people who trained for free under great conditions having a sook cause someone had a gravy train ride and now they percieve that they did it tough Financially. If you guys weren't in the RAAF, do you think that it would be a well paid job then straight into the airlines? Earning the great pay and conditions that that entails? or would you be like the rest (and majority of OZ aviators) doing it tough climbing the tree of experience to get to the Big pay airline? It is fairly naive to think ones potential civilian career would be an equivalent gravy train ride like those 22yo ex Ansett drivers that are doing so well overseas.
Why is it a problem to have younger Captains? In every different career choice (flying or otherwise), different people will get to where they are with different paths under different timelines. As long as they are qualified to be there then deal with it. I fly with a younger captain every now and then in her mid 20's and she is nothing short of brilliant (and a girl but thats another thread). That afformentioned captain has done all the hard yards and ammassed a wealth of experience at her young age - it can and will be done and good luck to them.
To those in the great airline jet jobs around the world, regardless of their background enjoy the job and don't take it for granted.
Woomera - thanks for understanding the intent of my post and defending it as required
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Hmmmmm.
Me old mate Chuckles and I agree mostly on everything, but I admit to reading rodneys initial post pretty much exactly as he later described it.
And yes I have bitten once or twice shy of the actual intent of the post too.
Either way if you remove all the angst from the posts, this thread has confirmed to me that we all have many different paths in life that often lead to the same end. We are all "disadvantaged", "discriminated against" equally.
Different in overall circumstances maybe but not in essence.
For example Metroman and AOTW same experiences different boat.
Me old mate Chuckles and I agree mostly on everything, but I admit to reading rodneys initial post pretty much exactly as he later described it.
You're now discovering the limitations of the written word...lacking, as it can be, in nuance.
Either way if you remove all the angst from the posts, this thread has confirmed to me that we all have many different paths in life that often lead to the same end. We are all "disadvantaged", "discriminated against" equally.
Different in overall circumstances maybe but not in essence.
For example Metroman and AOTW same experiences different boat.