Taupo=BAD
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Taupo=BAD
Taupo airport's black star rating - indicating major safety concerns by operators - is not the result of a full risk assessment and is not accurate, according to the Civil Aviation Authority (CAA).
The black star, the worst possible rating issued by the International Federation of Airline Pilots Associations (IFALPA), categorised airport safety at Taupo as "critically deficient".
The federation has imposed 11 special operating procedures for pilots flying into Taupo.
The lack of air traffic control at the airport was the greatest concern, the organisation said.
However, not all local pilots were spoken to as part of the study, CAA director John Jones said today.
"The concern I have is that if you're going to do a risk assessment, you must do a proper one," he told National Radio. "So the black star thing is not necessarily that accurate."
There was no doubt that Taupo airport was a safe environment to operate in, he said.
New Zealand Airline Pilots Association spokesman Glen Kenny described Taupo as the busiest parachute aerodrome in the southern hemisphere.
It was great for Taupo's tourism industry but it had got to the point where commercial pilots were "getting extremely nervous" when flying in and out of Taupo, he said.
"Air traffic control would take away those concerns."
Mr Jones said that when commercial flights were taking off and landing at the airport, all skydiving activities stopped.
This was one of the conditions which skydiving operators had agreed to under a memorandum of understanding with the airport.
However, local aircraft operators have rubbished claims that the airport is unsafe, labelling ALPA's comments as "scaremongering".
The Taupo Airport Users Group, which claims to represent 95 per cent of operators at or into Taupo, said the union was recycling old unsubstantiated claims.
It was "ludicrous to suggest that the pilots and owners of 23 different organisations, all of whom require CAA certificates, would collectively and knowingly operate into dangerous" conditions, said user group president Toby Clark.
John Funnell, who is also president of the Aviation Industry Association, agreed, saying ALPA had not spoken to most local operators, who had no major concerns.
Aviator Neville Smith, who lives on the airport's perimeter, believed Taupo needed air traffic control services immediately.
A flight information service, a limited form of air traffic control, was the minimum that was needed at Taupo but full air traffic control was the ideal, he told National Radio.
Taupo was a busy airport, with commercial flights operating alongside rescue helicopters, top-dressing planes, and skydivers, he said.
There had been many "near misses" at the airport, including a parachutist who landed very close to a helicopter only a couple of weeks ago. Taupo = BAD
The parachutists were a major user of the airport and really needed to be moved to another site, Mr Smith said.
"Having a skydiving drop-zone on a commercial airfield is bizarre."
He believed the imposition of the "black star" by IFALPA was an appropriate move.
"It's just got to the stage now where something just has to be done," Mr Smith said.
The black star, the worst possible rating issued by the International Federation of Airline Pilots Associations (IFALPA), categorised airport safety at Taupo as "critically deficient".
The federation has imposed 11 special operating procedures for pilots flying into Taupo.
The lack of air traffic control at the airport was the greatest concern, the organisation said.
However, not all local pilots were spoken to as part of the study, CAA director John Jones said today.
"The concern I have is that if you're going to do a risk assessment, you must do a proper one," he told National Radio. "So the black star thing is not necessarily that accurate."
There was no doubt that Taupo airport was a safe environment to operate in, he said.
New Zealand Airline Pilots Association spokesman Glen Kenny described Taupo as the busiest parachute aerodrome in the southern hemisphere.
It was great for Taupo's tourism industry but it had got to the point where commercial pilots were "getting extremely nervous" when flying in and out of Taupo, he said.
"Air traffic control would take away those concerns."
Mr Jones said that when commercial flights were taking off and landing at the airport, all skydiving activities stopped.
This was one of the conditions which skydiving operators had agreed to under a memorandum of understanding with the airport.
However, local aircraft operators have rubbished claims that the airport is unsafe, labelling ALPA's comments as "scaremongering".
The Taupo Airport Users Group, which claims to represent 95 per cent of operators at or into Taupo, said the union was recycling old unsubstantiated claims.
It was "ludicrous to suggest that the pilots and owners of 23 different organisations, all of whom require CAA certificates, would collectively and knowingly operate into dangerous" conditions, said user group president Toby Clark.
John Funnell, who is also president of the Aviation Industry Association, agreed, saying ALPA had not spoken to most local operators, who had no major concerns.
Aviator Neville Smith, who lives on the airport's perimeter, believed Taupo needed air traffic control services immediately.
A flight information service, a limited form of air traffic control, was the minimum that was needed at Taupo but full air traffic control was the ideal, he told National Radio.
Taupo was a busy airport, with commercial flights operating alongside rescue helicopters, top-dressing planes, and skydivers, he said.
There had been many "near misses" at the airport, including a parachutist who landed very close to a helicopter only a couple of weeks ago. Taupo = BAD
The parachutists were a major user of the airport and really needed to be moved to another site, Mr Smith said.
"Having a skydiving drop-zone on a commercial airfield is bizarre."
He believed the imposition of the "black star" by IFALPA was an appropriate move.
"It's just got to the stage now where something just has to be done," Mr Smith said.
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Taupo is a busy and ever more popular tourist destination. It already surpasses Rotovegas for movements and that is because it is a much nicer destination with a clean lake and many more activities. The runway will get lengthened one day to meet the demands of tourism, the aircraft servicing Taupo will get bigger and, it is inevitable that it is going to need control one day so why not implement it while there isnt a huge amount of traffic so that all the irregularities can be ironed out. I think the operators there are just worried about the extra costs but it is only the extra cost of controllers because the infrastucture and procedures are already in place!
Having flown out of there many times, I think Taupo would definately benefit from ATC but unfortunately it is a bit of NIMBYism creeping in from the Taupo based operators.
Having flown out of there many times, I think Taupo would definately benefit from ATC but unfortunately it is a bit of NIMBYism creeping in from the Taupo based operators.
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Having operated in and out of Taupo over the years on various op's in various a/c I never had any hassles.
Parachuting stops for all IFR traffic and wayward VFR's, the locals generally know better than to use the crossing grass as this is pretty much the DZ for some parachute ops, the Heli's and ag. a/c are mostly low level so out of the way of most traffic, the part 135 guys know the area and seem to have a level of situational awareness not always seen elsewhere, anthing about 5000AGL is controlled anyway so whose left? Lower level itinerant VFR? Im sure they dont represent a large % of movements but if its a half decent day there will be someone else out (usually the jump op's) who are good at helping them sort things out if there is going to be a problem of some sort.
As has been said before the only way to be 100% safe would be to keep the a/c in the hangar.
I think you would be more likely to have a near death experience going into the likes of Ardmore or Milford than Taupo.
Parachuting stops for all IFR traffic and wayward VFR's, the locals generally know better than to use the crossing grass as this is pretty much the DZ for some parachute ops, the Heli's and ag. a/c are mostly low level so out of the way of most traffic, the part 135 guys know the area and seem to have a level of situational awareness not always seen elsewhere, anthing about 5000AGL is controlled anyway so whose left? Lower level itinerant VFR? Im sure they dont represent a large % of movements but if its a half decent day there will be someone else out (usually the jump op's) who are good at helping them sort things out if there is going to be a problem of some sort.
As has been said before the only way to be 100% safe would be to keep the a/c in the hangar.
I think you would be more likely to have a near death experience going into the likes of Ardmore or Milford than Taupo.
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Originally Posted by flyby_kiwi
I think you would be more likely to have a near death experience going into the likes of Ardmore or Milford than Taupo.
Whats the difference between making MBZ calls and a call for clearance into a CTR? The first may be cheaper but the second is definately safer. A bit of common sense would see that it is a worthwhile thing and Taupo ATC would obviously operate in an advantageous way to the current users as they are the ones that pay the most fees. Taupo may be working ok for now as an MBZ but its only going to get busier as the town and toursit attractions blossom. Why not transfer all the tower staff from Rotorua to Taupo. If Rotorua has less movements, and the argument by the Taupo operators is that they are perfectly capable of operating with more movements per year, what is the point of Rotorua having a tower? Commercial a/c operate there and they have TCAS so whats the big deal???
I can comment on Milford as I have never flown in there.
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Well call me Mr old-fashioned, but I don't see why any user should have to pay directly for an ATC service. We don't pay directly for a Police force to regulate the roads, it all comes out of general taxation because people realise that it is everyones' interest to have order on the roads. Same should go for ATC, and I well remember the day some CAA rep came along to the aero club to try and convince us that "user pays" was the right way forward. He was wrong then and he's wrong now.
How many of you remember when most airports had a manned tower, and there were no landing or nav fees?
As for AP, it is obvious that John Funnell and his mates just don't want to be regulated. There seems to be an awful lot of local politics going on, but to me it is obvious. If you have that many diverse movements, you need some level of control. Otherwise, it isn't a matter of "if", only "when". Unless, of course, everybody is lying about the number of close calls...
How many of you remember when most airports had a manned tower, and there were no landing or nav fees?
As for AP, it is obvious that John Funnell and his mates just don't want to be regulated. There seems to be an awful lot of local politics going on, but to me it is obvious. If you have that many diverse movements, you need some level of control. Otherwise, it isn't a matter of "if", only "when". Unless, of course, everybody is lying about the number of close calls...
Briefly,
1) Taupo is busier than it has ever been and movements are forecast to increase.
2) Assistance from local pilots is great and should not be ignored, but are we reaching the point where this goes from being appreciated to expected?
3) What is(are) the disadvantage(s) of ATC at Taupo? (the plurals are in parenthesis as I suggest that there is only a singular answer)
4) Invulnerability seems overtly apparent in some of these posts.
1) Taupo is busier than it has ever been and movements are forecast to increase.
2) Assistance from local pilots is great and should not be ignored, but are we reaching the point where this goes from being appreciated to expected?
3) What is(are) the disadvantage(s) of ATC at Taupo? (the plurals are in parenthesis as I suggest that there is only a singular answer)
4) Invulnerability seems overtly apparent in some of these posts.
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From a users perspective, which is perceived to pose the greatest risk;
A Mid Air , or Parachutists dropping in on what appears to be a high number of spinning props and rotors? MBZ / ATC procedures may mitigate some of the risk associated with the first instance but not the second. Commercial Para ops, cloud, wind and sharp spinning edges are not the best of bedmates.
BD
A Mid Air , or Parachutists dropping in on what appears to be a high number of spinning props and rotors? MBZ / ATC procedures may mitigate some of the risk associated with the first instance but not the second. Commercial Para ops, cloud, wind and sharp spinning edges are not the best of bedmates.
BD
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There are already problems there. I have heard on more than occasion of the people (one of which was an Air NZ checkin staff memebr) that monitor the MBZ frequency advising (normally foreign pilots) of a rather large Mountain to the north that is going to get in their way very shortly. That is not their job and, it has prevented fatalities.
That mountain got in the way of someone else with tragic consequences recently and, having seen the ATC setup in Hamilton (when i was shown the SSR movements on the ground at AA), a controller watching the flight path of inbound IFR flights with the same equipment would probably have a good chance of preventing that sort of accident again.
I have had to go around (when established in the circuit) before because of muppets not talking on the MBZ (they were trying to find out from Christchurch if the jump planes were dropping when wanting to conduct an IFR approach in VMC conditions instead of monitoring and making standard reporting calls as required!). The Taupo MBZ was and still is a joke. It is a matter of time until the inevitable happens and MOR, sadly I think your last statement has hit the nail on the head.
When it comes down to it, the arguments for Taupo ATC far outway the arguments against so the CAA now need to get the balls to implement it. They also need to get ATC at ardmore! These are two of the busiest and most complicated aerodromes in NZ with all the movements yet ATC is put into other less important places!
That mountain got in the way of someone else with tragic consequences recently and, having seen the ATC setup in Hamilton (when i was shown the SSR movements on the ground at AA), a controller watching the flight path of inbound IFR flights with the same equipment would probably have a good chance of preventing that sort of accident again.
I have had to go around (when established in the circuit) before because of muppets not talking on the MBZ (they were trying to find out from Christchurch if the jump planes were dropping when wanting to conduct an IFR approach in VMC conditions instead of monitoring and making standard reporting calls as required!). The Taupo MBZ was and still is a joke. It is a matter of time until the inevitable happens and MOR, sadly I think your last statement has hit the nail on the head.
When it comes down to it, the arguments for Taupo ATC far outway the arguments against so the CAA now need to get the balls to implement it. They also need to get ATC at ardmore! These are two of the busiest and most complicated aerodromes in NZ with all the movements yet ATC is put into other less important places!
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I cant see what all the fuss is about when Ardmore still remains uncontrolled. Taupo is much quieter, and whilst it has a greater mix of aircraft types, at least the locals know where they are and how to use a radio.
And if our ever progressive and visionary CAA could just get off their butts and do something about an ADS-B rollout, we wouldnt be relying on such ancient technology as 'control towers' anyway
And if our ever progressive and visionary CAA could just get off their butts and do something about an ADS-B rollout, we wouldnt be relying on such ancient technology as 'control towers' anyway
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That's the spirit! Let's not correct a wrong whilst a greater wrong exists. Inaction rules, and nothing ever gets better. Worse than the CAA itself...
More to the point, whilst Ardmore might have a lot of traffic, they don't have meatbombers chucking victims in front of moving aircraft or near live helicopters. They also don't have commercial movements.
More to the point, whilst Ardmore might have a lot of traffic, they don't have meatbombers chucking victims in front of moving aircraft or near live helicopters. They also don't have commercial movements.
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makes you think
try being on final approach, IMC, no traffic reporting postion on local, or responding to your calls, and yet TCAS showing a target 500 directly below you.... and then ask yourself if you want controlled airspace and a tower in operation
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zed-k, If you are approaching from the north, It may well be a glider just under the cloud base but outside the MBZ and not on the mbz frequency. Centennial Park is not far away, slightly east of NDB DME Bravo approach and about 5 miles out (D426).
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true on speed, but it was simply an example, and not a one off occurance. Personally I never found the meat bombers to be a problem, they co-ordinated well with scheduled traffic, but VFR's were an issue. Not sure if local VFR or people passing through, but a lack of accurate radio calls, I suspect some not even monitoring local freq, some instances of very poor airmanship (landing on the runway while an Eagle flight was finishing landing roll for example) were issues I either experienced or was told about. Numerous reports were filed, and I also suspect many went unreported. These are not problems specific to AP, but given the volume of traffic I guess the risk is that much increased. Until issues like this are greatly reduced, some form of control seems to be the best course of action. It has been interesting to read some of the operators comments in the press. They can dress things up as much as they want, but in these days of user pays, the operators do not wish to bear the burden of funding ATC. It is a cost issue. If all ATC was centrally funded, I am guessing that they would have no objections to a control tower going in.
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Ardmore is not so busy these days..I think Jo Student has finally decided that the cost benifit is just too unfavourable now..in fact it never was that favourable..
..best I go get all the bills out of my letterbox before it falls over
..best I go get all the bills out of my letterbox before it falls over
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On Speed on profile
Where you not an idiot doing solo stuff one day? 
If you think having ATC at AR would reduce the number of go arounds you are sorely mistaken!!! I have been sent around by control many times at Hamilton due to aircraft vacating ahead of me, when I know perfectly well I will be able to get in.
Sure it gets busy at ardmore. But the worst offender is Mr Weekend Warrior coming out once every 2 months to go on a city scienic and bash out a couple of circuits to keep current, whilst dishing out abuse to those who he believes are in the wrong, when he is re joining a right base for 21!
On the Taupo issue - I have never had a problem there and fly in there alot, and have nothing to do with any of the operators on the field there!
Originally Posted by On speed on profile
Which is why Ardmore should have control as well. Try going around three times for every one touch and go at Ardmore when you are trying to convert to a multi type. Its a waste of time and money and I would rather have paid a little bit more for the landing fees so that I didnt have to spend so much time and money being messed around by an idiot in a 152 doing solo consolidation that couldnt listen to the radio calls.
If you think having ATC at AR would reduce the number of go arounds you are sorely mistaken!!! I have been sent around by control many times at Hamilton due to aircraft vacating ahead of me, when I know perfectly well I will be able to get in.
Sure it gets busy at ardmore. But the worst offender is Mr Weekend Warrior coming out once every 2 months to go on a city scienic and bash out a couple of circuits to keep current, whilst dishing out abuse to those who he believes are in the wrong, when he is re joining a right base for 21!
On the Taupo issue - I have never had a problem there and fly in there alot, and have nothing to do with any of the operators on the field there!
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Originally Posted by 6080ft
Where you not an idiot doing solo stuff one day?
If you think having ATC at AR would reduce the number of go arounds you are sorely mistaken!!! I have been sent around by control many times at Hamilton due to aircraft vacating ahead of me, when I know perfectly well I will be able to get in.
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Hey there MattyJ,
A lot of the average Jo student population have moved to Hamilton or Palmerston North, because they are learning with an outfit that can charge everything to the student loan or similar.
Jo Student who pays out of their own pocket are alive and well at Ardmore!
Taupo, ahhhhhh yes, the problems seem to come from the pilots trained on the said loan system, have had no experience at real aviation, instructing, charters, meatbombing , scenics etc, but instead are used to the tunnell vision approach, safe and secure under radar control, tower guided approaches, etc,etc.
The day they know what situational awareness is, whilst they fly the aircraft, is the day pink elephants will fly past the window.
These fellows(and fellow-esses) need some practical flying experience before
the 'airline pilot' career.
Safety comes from each and everyone of us involved in aviation, not a select few wanting to be wrapped in cottonwool.
Having said that, the weekend warriors need to be reminded about give way rules on the circuit. especially at Ardmore(as do some instructors!)
A lot of the average Jo student population have moved to Hamilton or Palmerston North, because they are learning with an outfit that can charge everything to the student loan or similar.
Jo Student who pays out of their own pocket are alive and well at Ardmore!
Taupo, ahhhhhh yes, the problems seem to come from the pilots trained on the said loan system, have had no experience at real aviation, instructing, charters, meatbombing , scenics etc, but instead are used to the tunnell vision approach, safe and secure under radar control, tower guided approaches, etc,etc.
The day they know what situational awareness is, whilst they fly the aircraft, is the day pink elephants will fly past the window.
These fellows(and fellow-esses) need some practical flying experience before
the 'airline pilot' career.
Safety comes from each and everyone of us involved in aviation, not a select few wanting to be wrapped in cottonwool.
Having said that, the weekend warriors need to be reminded about give way rules on the circuit. especially at Ardmore(as do some instructors!)
Are there any comments or published information regarding Taupo operations out there?
i.e. something 'extra' in the VFG?NOTAMs or whatever, stating among other things, "....Taupo is a busy place so be extra vigilant..."
Possibly this could be seen as admitting that Taupo carries a greater risk than other airports and in such the powers-at-be would prefer not to concede such a situation exists?
Loco, maybe you could expand on this jewel?
i.e. something 'extra' in the VFG?NOTAMs or whatever, stating among other things, "....Taupo is a busy place so be extra vigilant..."
Possibly this could be seen as admitting that Taupo carries a greater risk than other airports and in such the powers-at-be would prefer not to concede such a situation exists?
Safety comes from each and everyone of us involved in aviation, not a select few wanting to be wrapped in cottonwool.