Canberra Runway Works.....

[blueloo]

I understand Canberra is undergoing some Rwy strengthening and lengthening works for a substantial period of time - I think till 2007.

Given the nature of these works, and length of time, why unlike most other airports around the world, have they not published temporary charts for the runway works (aerodrome diagrams), and for interim approach procedure charts (ie new LOC approach RWY 35).

Trying to digest 50 text notams on one airport, indicating altitude changes, procedure entry altitudes etc, is surely a recipe for an accident, when a series of simple temporary colour coded chart could be produced.

(Unless of course they have been, and I havent seen them yet..... in which case 1000 apologies.)

Does anyone have a link to diagrams of canberras runway works?

[woftam]

I agree blueloo !!!!!
Not to mention that there is normally only one copy of the notams on the flightdeck. Where is the normal crosscheck using independant plates during approach?
Great timing too (winter).
If yesterdays pea soup fog in CBR that lasted until nearly lunchtime is any indication of things to come this winter then we are in for some very interesting and possibly dangerous times.
Carrying out an instrument (NPA) approach in a jet to a reduced runway length of 1900 metres with a temporary displaced threshold in marginal conditions using a single notam as a "pseudo instrument approach plate" is not a desirable scenario !!!!!!
Coupled with the terrain and normally short flight times to CBR (i.e reduced briefing time) be very carefull people.

[olderairhead]

Simple answer is, there is a print cycle.

Amendments for the next print cycle have to be submitted well in advance.

There can be a 6 month delay in what is happening to what is published depending on when the change was submitted compared to the print cycle.

So assume that the print cycle deadline was not met.

Therefore you should get the amendments within 6 months of the change, so long as they have decided to submit a change rather than a NOTAM.

Called beaurocrisy!

Hope this helps.

[No Further Requirements]

G'day all,
Just a word of thanks from your friendly approach controllers in Canberra.
I know the works are frustrating with the changes to the runway, taxiways and approaches, so thanks for your patience while this is underway. We have to put a little more disctance between arrivals on RWY35 for backtracking at the moment too, so there is a fair bit we ALL have to concerntrate on!
As an aside, do the companies get a copy of the works plan, and if so, do the crews get to see it, or just the pile of NOTAMS that come out?
Cheers all,
NFR.

[blueloo]

So far just a pile of poorly written notams.......... very hard to share around aswell, so remember to make a couple of copies of the approach notams so you have 1 each to read.


It really is a piss poor effort.

I hope someone doesnt have a prang because someone was to cheap/lazy to get some temporary charts out.

[blueloo]

Just an addition - given that no G/P available, could the controllers please not cut the jets in when completing the full LOC approach in average weather.

(I guess it depends on company requirements) - but a full LOC approach requires full configuration prior to commencment of the approach.

[hoss]

and for the prop guys inbound from the SYD, how about more of those 'inside 4.0DME' when you only have Rwy35 on offer.

Much better than the noise abatement procedures, thankyou .

[woftam]

olderairhead,
Yes I agree regarding print cycles. It would appear there has been a severe lack of preparation/co-ordination between the various interested parties regarding these works.Unfortunately (as usual) we at the coalface are left with the result. Accountability is a word that springs to mind?
No Further Requirements,
Thanks for the approach controllers perspective. All we plebs in the cockpit get to see is a mass of notams in no particular order relating to the various changes to DME/ALT scales,revised O/M height checks,runway lengths,temporary PAPI,taxiway closures,don't put power up until the displaced threshold on departure etc.,etc.etc
This coupled with 3-4 sector days etc. when the notams for CBR are a distant blur since sign on is a recipe for disaster.
Woomera
I think this subject is important enough to anyone who flies into CBR at the moment to deserve a "Sticky" ?
Everyone
I think this is what PPRUNE is all about and was when I signed up.
It seems that it has degenerated into a pissing competition which is a real shame.
Be carefull

[Pass-A-Frozo]

Can't they put a SUP out or something with the approach. They don't put out DAPS in a text only format, no doubt because they know it's not useful. Why put approaches out in NOTAM format. It's not as if they are asking for a small pen amendment.

[No Further Requirements]

G'day all,
Great to see this all being discussed at this level, however, has anyone said anything to AIS or Canberra Airport? ATC just deal with what we get, and it's a lot easier for us down here just to look at the plate - up there it's a different matter. Are there any other runway works that have happened at different locations that have had ammended plates or an AIP SUP to cover it?

Originally Posted by blueloo

could the controllers please not cut the jets in when completing the full LOC approach in average weather

The 6000ft intercept begins downwards at just under 13NM to touchdown. ATC should ensure that you are on the localizer 2NM before this, so at15NM to T/D, which is right abeam WLE. If this is not being done, please let me know. Sometimes there may be a reason to cut you in a little tighter for sequencing, but once you are pointiong more northerly, we can drop you to 5000ft for the approach. This ensures you will not get any dud GPWS warnings (which is the whole reason for the 6000ft intercept...)

Originally Posted by hoss

how about more of those 'inside 4.0DME' when you only have Rwy35 on offer

We do try to do this as often as possible. Sometimes it may not be available for sequencing purposes, or because of TWR traffic. Believe me, we love it too as it gets you down quicker!
mumble...mumble...bloody noise abatement....mumble...mumble....

Originally Posted by woftam

Thanks for the approach controllers perspective

No worries!
If you guys/gals have any more quieries or suggestions, please feel free to PM me.
Cheers,
NFR.

[woftam]

Originally Posted by No Further Requirements

and it's a lot easier for us down here just to look at the plate NFR.

G'day No Further Requirements,do you mean there are plates depicting the revised LOC and GNSS approaches to RWY35 during the works? Or do you mean the normal plates?
If there are revised plates available relating to the changes we would sure like to get our hands on them !!!!
Cheers

[Utradar]

Bloody noise abatement!

mumble...mumble...bloody noise abatement....mumble...mumble....

Noise abatement in Canberra seems pointless! I don't see the reason for bloody noise abatement when just about every day, the blackhawks are flying right over noise abatement areas making a hell of a noise. They make more noise than 3 jets put together

[No Further Requirements]

Originally Posted by woftam

do you mean there are plates depicting the revised LOC and GNSS approaches to RWY35 during the works? Or do you mean the normal plates?

I mean the plates that I have hand ammended that sit at the console. I will print some new ones off when the NOTAM expires.

Originally Posted by Spoilher

the blackhawks are flying right over noise abatement areas making a hell of a noise.

Noise abatement applies to prop aircraft above 5700kg MTOW and all jets. I suppose there has to be a line drawn somewhere, but I think a King Air B350 makes less noise than a Nanchang!
Cheers,
NFR.

PS Blueloo - check your PMs!

[woftam]

Thanks NFR. Unfortunately we use Jepps in a flight library which stays with the A/C so hand amending not a viable option.

[No Further Requirements]

Ah, that would explain it then.