QANTAS Singapore Basing
If this means that S/O's return for cyclics (initially) plus one trip back home you may well- NOT qualify for foreign taxation. The S/O's who were planning on more than one personal trip home per year may find this hard to swallow
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OhSpareMe, All I can say is you are not the arbitraitor of all things tax, the ATO is for australians.
This is a never ending circle with you. I actually want to believe your way of thinking, but in some cases it ain't the truth. For everyone out there that reads this then talk to the ATO. Get a ruling.
If you don't and you end up paying aussie tax, then the line " OhSpareMe told me that I wouldn't have to pay" just won't cut it.
404titan, All i can say is what the ATO said, that if you are directly payed by Q you will pay aussie tax, as your income is derived from Australia. Setting up a Singas based company will get a round that, but then it raises the issue of paying superannuation.
If anyone wants to find out for themselves rather than taking the advice from plonkers like me on proon then ring the ATO.
This is a never ending circle with you. I actually want to believe your way of thinking, but in some cases it ain't the truth. For everyone out there that reads this then talk to the ATO. Get a ruling.
If you don't and you end up paying aussie tax, then the line " OhSpareMe told me that I wouldn't have to pay" just won't cut it.
404titan, All i can say is what the ATO said, that if you are directly payed by Q you will pay aussie tax, as your income is derived from Australia. Setting up a Singas based company will get a round that, but then it raises the issue of paying superannuation.
If anyone wants to find out for themselves rather than taking the advice from plonkers like me on proon then ring the ATO.
Last edited by Freddy Fudpucker; 22nd Mar 2006 at 09:34.
touchncloth
And that is why I said the calculator isn’t complete under law. I return to Australia all the time because of my work and I am still classed by the ATO as a non resident for tax purposes. In regards to returning to Australia four times, (I don’t know where you got this figure from?), it really depends on your reason for returning to Australia.
Freddy Fudpucker
No where in the Australian Tax Act or on the ATO’s web sight does it say you will be deemed a resident of Australia for tax purposes if you are paid by an Australian company while your permanent abode is overseas. Deriving your income from Australia, i.e. rent or shares isn’t the same as being paid by an Australian company while based overseas. Obviously the person you spoke to in the ATO doesn’t know this but a good account does and so do the courts. If you want to get an idea if under your circumstances you will be classed as an Australian resident for tax purposes I suggest you have a read of TAXATION RULING NO. IT 2650 at:http://law.ato.gov.au/atolaw/view.ht.../NAT/ATO/00001
Finally I have never said that everyone will be classed as non residents. Before accepting a position in Singapore I suggest everyone should get an individual assessment from a tax accountant, not the ATO. Most individuals though I would imagine will be classed as non residents if they follow the simple rules that can be found in the ATO’s web sight. I would has it a guess that Qantas is wanting a blanket ruling for all SO’s based in Singapore which quite rightly the ATO won’t do because every individuals situation will be different and it could open a Pandora’s box in the future for the ATO.
Just for the record I think the forced basing of new SO’s in Singapore stinks on the conditions being offered and I think your APIA and its members who voted for it have a lot to answer for in letting this get through. On the other hand most of the arguments regarding taxation I have heard on here are hear say and half truths which are obviously industrially motivated and lack any real substance. I suggest you fight this based on the cost of living in Singapore which most certainly has credit based on the package being offered and leave the taxation question to individual assessments that I would suggest all prospective candidates get before accepting the post.
And that is why I said the calculator isn’t complete under law. I return to Australia all the time because of my work and I am still classed by the ATO as a non resident for tax purposes. In regards to returning to Australia four times, (I don’t know where you got this figure from?), it really depends on your reason for returning to Australia.
Freddy Fudpucker
No where in the Australian Tax Act or on the ATO’s web sight does it say you will be deemed a resident of Australia for tax purposes if you are paid by an Australian company while your permanent abode is overseas. Deriving your income from Australia, i.e. rent or shares isn’t the same as being paid by an Australian company while based overseas. Obviously the person you spoke to in the ATO doesn’t know this but a good account does and so do the courts. If you want to get an idea if under your circumstances you will be classed as an Australian resident for tax purposes I suggest you have a read of TAXATION RULING NO. IT 2650 at:http://law.ato.gov.au/atolaw/view.ht.../NAT/ATO/00001
Finally I have never said that everyone will be classed as non residents. Before accepting a position in Singapore I suggest everyone should get an individual assessment from a tax accountant, not the ATO. Most individuals though I would imagine will be classed as non residents if they follow the simple rules that can be found in the ATO’s web sight. I would has it a guess that Qantas is wanting a blanket ruling for all SO’s based in Singapore which quite rightly the ATO won’t do because every individuals situation will be different and it could open a Pandora’s box in the future for the ATO.
Just for the record I think the forced basing of new SO’s in Singapore stinks on the conditions being offered and I think your APIA and its members who voted for it have a lot to answer for in letting this get through. On the other hand most of the arguments regarding taxation I have heard on here are hear say and half truths which are obviously industrially motivated and lack any real substance. I suggest you fight this based on the cost of living in Singapore which most certainly has credit based on the package being offered and leave the taxation question to individual assessments that I would suggest all prospective candidates get before accepting the post.
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404 titan
Agree with all you say. I think it imperative for those who have borderline resident status to get a savvy accountant to figure out the best way to get around it.
As an addition i didn't get that info regarding being paid by an australian business therfeore pay australian tax from the ATO web site. It was verbally from an ATO overseas tax expert.
As an addition i didn't get that info regarding being paid by an australian business therfeore pay australian tax from the ATO web site. It was verbally from an ATO overseas tax expert.
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The basic rule of thumb as told to me by an sydney based O/S tax specialist is :-
Do you PLAN on being out of the country for next 2 years?
If the answer is yes, you can inform the ATO you are becoming a non resident for tax.
If you return to AUS for holidays training etc will not effect your tax residency unless you are in AUS for greater than 180 days per Fin year.
You will not effect your residency even if your wage/salary is paid into a bank account in Aus.
If you really wanted to know perhaps you could ask some of the QANTAS staff posted in cities outside australia.......
Do you PLAN on being out of the country for next 2 years?
If the answer is yes, you can inform the ATO you are becoming a non resident for tax.
If you return to AUS for holidays training etc will not effect your tax residency unless you are in AUS for greater than 180 days per Fin year.
You will not effect your residency even if your wage/salary is paid into a bank account in Aus.
If you really wanted to know perhaps you could ask some of the QANTAS staff posted in cities outside australia.......
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I considered some of the postings here to be overreacting to the determining of non-resident status. But then I looked through the Tax Ruling IT 2650.
The criteria seem clear cut but as usual the ATO always manages to have two bob each way. As my accountant occasionally reminds me, even private rulings are not assured and the ATO will at times challenge its own private rulings. By the way there was a reference earlier to a fee for private rulings. There was no charge for the last one I had a couple of years ago.
The various factors listed in the tax ruling seem to be able to be met by most SO’s. Scanning the list of examples towards the end of the document there is this one however: TAXATION RULING NO. IT 2650
INCOME TAX: RESIDENCY - PERMANENT PLACE OF ABODE OUTSIDE AUSTRALIA
38. An airline company employee took a 2 to 3 year posting to an overseas country expecting to return to Australia at the end of that period. She was accompanied by her spouse and children and purchased a home in the overseas country while renting out the family home in Australia. She was considered to have remained a resident of Australia. However, if she decided to stay in the overseas country for a further period of, say, 2 years, she was to be treated as a non-resident during the additional 2 year period.
Result: resident during her posting.
Note the similarities in the above example as they are worrying. Factors such as timeframe, taking family with you and renting out/selling your home here, don’t appear to have won over the ATO. For SO’s with families this may be a two edged sword. Leaving your kids at school back in Oz while similar education services are available in Singapore would be strongly viewed by the ATO as an indication of resident status. Yet if you take your family with you as in the above example, this by no means ensures non-resident status without which living costs will be crippling.
Hope you are still following this thread Hugh. Reiterating previous posts..get independent expert advice and seek a private ruling. Pass the info around. If QF don’t seek, obtain and give clear direction to staff well prior postings then they are yet again abrogating their employer responsibilities. Not holding my breath especially on the 'well prior' part,
LD
Having just played with the ATO's residency calculator one interesting outcome was that without altering any other entries, family not accompanying will give resident status. One SO I know was planning on leaving his wife behind to complete her tertiary studies but to do so will be very expensive.
The criteria seem clear cut but as usual the ATO always manages to have two bob each way. As my accountant occasionally reminds me, even private rulings are not assured and the ATO will at times challenge its own private rulings. By the way there was a reference earlier to a fee for private rulings. There was no charge for the last one I had a couple of years ago.
The various factors listed in the tax ruling seem to be able to be met by most SO’s. Scanning the list of examples towards the end of the document there is this one however: TAXATION RULING NO. IT 2650
INCOME TAX: RESIDENCY - PERMANENT PLACE OF ABODE OUTSIDE AUSTRALIA
38. An airline company employee took a 2 to 3 year posting to an overseas country expecting to return to Australia at the end of that period. She was accompanied by her spouse and children and purchased a home in the overseas country while renting out the family home in Australia. She was considered to have remained a resident of Australia. However, if she decided to stay in the overseas country for a further period of, say, 2 years, she was to be treated as a non-resident during the additional 2 year period.
Result: resident during her posting.
Note the similarities in the above example as they are worrying. Factors such as timeframe, taking family with you and renting out/selling your home here, don’t appear to have won over the ATO. For SO’s with families this may be a two edged sword. Leaving your kids at school back in Oz while similar education services are available in Singapore would be strongly viewed by the ATO as an indication of resident status. Yet if you take your family with you as in the above example, this by no means ensures non-resident status without which living costs will be crippling.
Hope you are still following this thread Hugh. Reiterating previous posts..get independent expert advice and seek a private ruling. Pass the info around. If QF don’t seek, obtain and give clear direction to staff well prior postings then they are yet again abrogating their employer responsibilities. Not holding my breath especially on the 'well prior' part,
LD
Having just played with the ATO's residency calculator one interesting outcome was that without altering any other entries, family not accompanying will give resident status. One SO I know was planning on leaving his wife behind to complete her tertiary studies but to do so will be very expensive.
Last edited by LookinDown; 25th Mar 2006 at 22:22.
You could of course remain a "Resident for Tax Purposes" whilst engaging on "Continuous Foreign Service" and have your "Foreign Employment Income" exempted from Australian Tax.
Here is the link for those interested in doing some research
http://www.ato.gov.au/individuals/co...tent/28908.htm
And seeing as though we are in the business of selectively quoting, I thought I might include this from Tax Ruling IT2650
(it can be found just above the 'airline employee' example.)
Here is the link for those interested in doing some research
http://www.ato.gov.au/individuals/co...tent/28908.htm
And seeing as though we are in the business of selectively quoting, I thought I might include this from Tax Ruling IT2650
(it can be found just above the 'airline employee' example.)
35. An engineer was sent by his Australian employer to the Philippines on a project assignment for a minimum period of 3 to 4 years and he decided to relocate his family in the Philippines. In fact, the assignment was terminated after 2 years and the taxpayer returned to Australia. It was always his intention to return to Australia at the completion of the project. He retained his Australian home and rented it out. On arriving in the Philippines, the taxpayer and his family initially resided for short periods at a hotel and in an apartment. Later, he sub-leased a house which the family occupied until their return to Australia. Having regard to the nature and quality of his use of the place of abode in the Philippines, the taxpayer was considered to have established a permanent place of abode outside Australia (Case R92 84 ATC 615; Case 145 27 CTBR(NS) 1131).
Result : non-resident.
Result : non-resident.
Don’t be misled by the nature of the employment overseas. It’s irrelevant. Want is relevant is being able to prove where your permanent place of abode is and how you arrange your affairs while you were away. These individual cases are only giving you a broad overview of the circumstances of the individual. You really need to get hold of the entire transcript of the case before using it because the detail is in the fine print.
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Guys,
I sincerely appreciate the assistance. Certainly a lot to prepare before departure.
However, my question is this :
The Qantas Singapore basing time-line is now well behind schedule. What is causing Qantas to delay the release of the basing details? Speculation suggests that it is tax related. If non-resident status is a non - issue then why delay the basing?
How does the union feel about the situation ?
Hugh
I sincerely appreciate the assistance. Certainly a lot to prepare before departure.
However, my question is this :
The Qantas Singapore basing time-line is now well behind schedule. What is causing Qantas to delay the release of the basing details? Speculation suggests that it is tax related. If non-resident status is a non - issue then why delay the basing?
How does the union feel about the situation ?
Hugh
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Hugh Gorgen,
AIPA have proposed an information day on 5 Apr 2006. The company has also been invited to attend and/or present. I imagine this meeting will be well attended....
The company is having a number of problems, least of which revolves around rostering Singapore based crews in accordance with the original Letter of Agreement...
However, the latest and in some ways the most disturbing news I have heard is that Qantas are considering NOT paying Second Officers their Superannuation entitlement whilst in Singapore! Hopefully only a rumour... I trust many will want clarification of this particular issue on 5 Apr....
It is amusing to think that the company actually think they can sign people up on a contract of employment before the conditions of that contract have been developed, formalised and/or communicated!
If it ended up in the courts - I think lawyers would have a field day!
AIPA have proposed an information day on 5 Apr 2006. The company has also been invited to attend and/or present. I imagine this meeting will be well attended....
The company is having a number of problems, least of which revolves around rostering Singapore based crews in accordance with the original Letter of Agreement...
However, the latest and in some ways the most disturbing news I have heard is that Qantas are considering NOT paying Second Officers their Superannuation entitlement whilst in Singapore! Hopefully only a rumour... I trust many will want clarification of this particular issue on 5 Apr....
It is amusing to think that the company actually think they can sign people up on a contract of employment before the conditions of that contract have been developed, formalised and/or communicated!
If it ended up in the courts - I think lawyers would have a field day!
I heard the Company was also going to execute your first born.
Not paying Super? I would like to see them get away with that. Tell me Datum from whom you heard that little gem. If it is such an issue (which it isn't) then why not just re-credit your super account upon your return? The only problem I can see with Superannuation is that you will not have any option to Salary Sacrifice extra contributions because you will not have a Taxable Salary (as such) from which to make said contributions.
Hugh Gorgen. I feel that the delay in establishing the basing is more likely due to 'administration' reasons rather than anything sinister. If you end up going to the 5 April briefing I would be keen to hear what was offered (I will be O/S on the day)
Not paying Super? I would like to see them get away with that. Tell me Datum from whom you heard that little gem. If it is such an issue (which it isn't) then why not just re-credit your super account upon your return? The only problem I can see with Superannuation is that you will not have any option to Salary Sacrifice extra contributions because you will not have a Taxable Salary (as such) from which to make said contributions.
Hugh Gorgen. I feel that the delay in establishing the basing is more likely due to 'administration' reasons rather than anything sinister. If you end up going to the 5 April briefing I would be keen to hear what was offered (I will be O/S on the day)
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To get back on track of this thread because we can all pontificate about whether or not how each individual will be taxed but in the end QF will offer the job with certain conditions of employment and you may choose to accept these conditions or not.
The bottom line will be Do you want the Job or not which is a sad indictment but a reality all the same.
Does any body have an idea how much these SOs will be paid in AUD $ ?
How many hours flying per month?
Would some care to post the LOA that "ohspareme" has mentioned in previous posts...
The bottom line will be Do you want the Job or not which is a sad indictment but a reality all the same.
Does any body have an idea how much these SOs will be paid in AUD $ ?
How many hours flying per month?
Would some care to post the LOA that "ohspareme" has mentioned in previous posts...
Bolty,
Don't know if posting the entire LOA here is entirely appropriate, but someone might do it.
As for your other questions, pay will be in $AUD in accordance with the current EBA and rates of pay. Given that the divisor in SIN is forecast to be 180hrs and the fact that every flight will have some amount of overtime, S/Os could earn a little more than they do at present (unless of course they are pacific barons). A 2yr S/O for example would probably be earning $110,000 AUD. (working out a QF pilots pay is like asking how long is a piece of string though!)
180hr divisors mean roughly 90hrs duty a month, so 75-80 hrs stick/month would be about it.
TL
Don't know if posting the entire LOA here is entirely appropriate, but someone might do it.
As for your other questions, pay will be in $AUD in accordance with the current EBA and rates of pay. Given that the divisor in SIN is forecast to be 180hrs and the fact that every flight will have some amount of overtime, S/Os could earn a little more than they do at present (unless of course they are pacific barons). A 2yr S/O for example would probably be earning $110,000 AUD. (working out a QF pilots pay is like asking how long is a piece of string though!)
180hr divisors mean roughly 90hrs duty a month, so 75-80 hrs stick/month would be about it.
TL
Nunc est bibendum
Originally Posted by Transition Layer
180hr divisors mean roughly 90hrs duty a month, so 75-80 hrs stick/month would be about it.
TL
TL
In actuality, it's going to be a relatively 'easy' time in terms of time off at 'home' in Singapore. 25ish stick hours per trip to London means max four trips per month- possibly three to LHR and one to FRA. At three to four days a trip means decent time off at home. Looking at about 200 o/t hours per annum instead of the normal 100! That'll make a difference!
Keg,
Don't forget, there's also going to be 9 day 'shuttles' SIN/LHR/BKK/LHR/SIN and SIN/LHR/HKG/LHR/SIN. Probably means even more time off, at 'home' or on the golf courses on Bintan Island.
TL
At three to four days a trip means decent time off at home.
TL
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Ok thanks to TL the figures look like this…
110,000 = 126,500 SGD @ $1.15
Tax = -$ 18,270 SGD
Net = 108, 230 SGD
Net per Month $9,000 SGD plus a few bucks
Expenses per month.
Elec/gas $300
Taxi $800
Rent $1500 - $2200
Food $600
Alcohol $400 - $2000
Health insur $300
Phone
(mob + land) $100
Internet/tv $100
Min per Month $4100
Max per Month $6400 ++
Something to note the $110 K AUD gross is made up of allowances some of which will be spent in LHR keeping yourself fed and watered.
If you have primary school kids and younger add 20 K SGD per year ($1660 pm) for an expat school but there are cheaper alternatives.
Some rough figures that have been rounded up to the nearest hundred but they are sourced from people whom live there..
NB. Most apartment leases are 2 years with penalty of paying a minimum of 14 months rent if you break within the first year and 2 months rent if you break in the second year so if you plan on sharing and splitting the rent with someone you had better be sure they are a good mate.
110,000 = 126,500 SGD @ $1.15
Tax = -$ 18,270 SGD
Net = 108, 230 SGD
Net per Month $9,000 SGD plus a few bucks
Expenses per month.
Elec/gas $300
Taxi $800
Rent $1500 - $2200
Food $600
Alcohol $400 - $2000
Health insur $300
Phone
(mob + land) $100
Internet/tv $100
Min per Month $4100
Max per Month $6400 ++
Something to note the $110 K AUD gross is made up of allowances some of which will be spent in LHR keeping yourself fed and watered.
If you have primary school kids and younger add 20 K SGD per year ($1660 pm) for an expat school but there are cheaper alternatives.
Some rough figures that have been rounded up to the nearest hundred but they are sourced from people whom live there..
NB. Most apartment leases are 2 years with penalty of paying a minimum of 14 months rent if you break within the first year and 2 months rent if you break in the second year so if you plan on sharing and splitting the rent with someone you had better be sure they are a good mate.
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Originally Posted by GetOffMyBack
When eventually the singapore base is up and running will Singapore flights to/from Australia operate two crew?
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I heard a rumour or two.
The reason the Singapore basing isn't up and running is because the people who came up with the idea and showed how the savings can be made by placing SOs Singa have not organised anything other than the basic concept.
This is probably why all the questions posted in this thread cannot be answered. eg Super, country of tax etc
This is partly due to the employment "models" put forward so far are either not as economically viable as first thought or ithe deal that does not fit the agreement.
And why would the Singapore ministry of manpower offer work permits for foreign workers to work for a foreign airline in direct competion with SQ !!
It would be within Singapores right to insist these jobs be offered locally first before bringing in foreign nationals to fill positions or the fact that QF gets 3 million savings on routes that it competes directly with SQ may be a stumbling block.
The reason the Singapore basing isn't up and running is because the people who came up with the idea and showed how the savings can be made by placing SOs Singa have not organised anything other than the basic concept.
This is probably why all the questions posted in this thread cannot be answered. eg Super, country of tax etc
This is partly due to the employment "models" put forward so far are either not as economically viable as first thought or ithe deal that does not fit the agreement.
And why would the Singapore ministry of manpower offer work permits for foreign workers to work for a foreign airline in direct competion with SQ !!
It would be within Singapores right to insist these jobs be offered locally first before bringing in foreign nationals to fill positions or the fact that QF gets 3 million savings on routes that it competes directly with SQ may be a stumbling block.