caravan crash at caloundra
Join Date: Jan 1999
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bilbert
you state
"Lo Idle is for ground ops 52%Ng. Hi Idle is min 65%Ng. Once the power lever is past this setting it doesn't matter, unless you pull power back and then the engine should not slow below 65%. If you have Lo Idle improperly set in flight, the engine will slow down to 52% which is barely self sustaining and can be a flameout risk (hence CS)."
Sorry....you are so totally wrong.
Low idle can be used both on the ground and in the air. Hi idle is only required for max reverse, nothing more/nothing less.
Intermediate idle (memory?? 62%) is required for ground aircon ops.
Proper operation should never (hi idle/lo idle) result in a flameout.
"bilbert" if you are endorsed on the Caravan (or even any PT6 powered aircraft) and you believe in what you have posted, all I can say is that you may have misunderstood, or the instructor didn't teach what he should have.
Perhaps it is time to revisit the books.
you state
"Lo Idle is for ground ops 52%Ng. Hi Idle is min 65%Ng. Once the power lever is past this setting it doesn't matter, unless you pull power back and then the engine should not slow below 65%. If you have Lo Idle improperly set in flight, the engine will slow down to 52% which is barely self sustaining and can be a flameout risk (hence CS)."
Sorry....you are so totally wrong.
Low idle can be used both on the ground and in the air. Hi idle is only required for max reverse, nothing more/nothing less.
Intermediate idle (memory?? 62%) is required for ground aircon ops.
Proper operation should never (hi idle/lo idle) result in a flameout.
"bilbert" if you are endorsed on the Caravan (or even any PT6 powered aircraft) and you believe in what you have posted, all I can say is that you may have misunderstood, or the instructor didn't teach what he should have.
Perhaps it is time to revisit the books.
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First thing I thought of when I saw the title of this was "Hope everyone is OK", but it seems nobody else really gives a root about stuff like that and just use it as an excuse to show how smart they are after the fact.
Anyway, may be a bit sensitive at present with a few collegues departing for good... but hope all involved were OK after the incident.
Anyway, may be a bit sensitive at present with a few collegues departing for good... but hope all involved were OK after the incident.
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ABC
It is sad enough to lose friends in the real world but to see lives put at risk in the training world just makes your blood boil.
In cases such as this, IMHO, comment is fair.
(BTW, I too hoped everyone walked away, as I am 100% sure all the other posters did).
It is sad enough to lose friends in the real world but to see lives put at risk in the training world just makes your blood boil.
In cases such as this, IMHO, comment is fair.
(BTW, I too hoped everyone walked away, as I am 100% sure all the other posters did).
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Have to agree with Gen Ties there bilbert, did a fair bit of parachuting and we used to point the thing at the ground from 15,000ft , Vne -5kts in low idle , it never flamed out in the 1000hrs I did it and the same company has never had a flame out that I know of. The reason is that if you decide you really really want some reverse action and you want it now.....Hi idle is where you want to be.(less time to spool up and deliver power). We had no need for reverse on our long runway. Cheers.
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I dunno where this low idle/high idle rubbish comes from..even on the B200 you can run in Low idle with no problem!
Where I flew the Van (we had 2 on Para Ops) one guy decided to try a bit of beta on descent..silly bugger ran out of forward elevator in about .2 second
Where I flew the Van (we had 2 on Para Ops) one guy decided to try a bit of beta on descent..silly bugger ran out of forward elevator in about .2 second
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What the **** is intermeditate idle
"Intermediate idle (memory?? 62%) is required for ground aircon ops." What the???
Gen ties i am presuming you have a 208 endorsement. Could you explain where the intermediate idle detent is? Or do you just set 62% by the gauge. Unless of course you are just winding me up in which case hook line and sinker.
There is no risk of flame out simply by being in low idle, however there is a risk of flameout moving from hi to lo in flight, if that handle comes back one more notch then bingo flameout due to your own stupidity.
It is pretty simple lo on the ground hi in the air. There is only one correct way to do it. It is not a matter of "well it works for me".
Getting away from the caloundra incident as it hi/lo idle does not seem to be a factor. But the level of knowledge from people supposedly with endorsements is very worrying.
Have seen said instructor do one stupid act in the past, so maybe this should not really suprise me, am not commenting on his skill more his judgement.
Gen ties i am presuming you have a 208 endorsement. Could you explain where the intermediate idle detent is? Or do you just set 62% by the gauge. Unless of course you are just winding me up in which case hook line and sinker.
There is no risk of flame out simply by being in low idle, however there is a risk of flameout moving from hi to lo in flight, if that handle comes back one more notch then bingo flameout due to your own stupidity.
It is pretty simple lo on the ground hi in the air. There is only one correct way to do it. It is not a matter of "well it works for me".
Getting away from the caloundra incident as it hi/lo idle does not seem to be a factor. But the level of knowledge from people supposedly with endorsements is very worrying.
Have seen said instructor do one stupid act in the past, so maybe this should not really suprise me, am not commenting on his skill more his judgement.
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Originally Posted by haughtney1
I dunno where this low idle/high idle rubbish comes from..even on the B200 you can run in Low idle with no problem!
Where I flew the Van (we had 2 on Para Ops) one guy decided to try a bit of beta on descent..silly bugger ran out of forward elevator in about .2 second
Where I flew the Van (we had 2 on Para Ops) one guy decided to try a bit of beta on descent..silly bugger ran out of forward elevator in about .2 second
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Gen Ties & CJAM
Check your C208 FM. Section 4 Normal Procedures - Before Takeoff Checklist and amplified section.
All C208 instructors should be reqd to do the FlightSafety course.
2500 hrs C208 500+ C208 Instruction ATO and still learning.
Check your C208 FM. Section 4 Normal Procedures - Before Takeoff Checklist and amplified section.
All C208 instructors should be reqd to do the FlightSafety course.
2500 hrs C208 500+ C208 Instruction ATO and still learning.
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Bilbo, we're not talking about retarding the condition lever to low idle whilst in flight, we were meaning leaving it there all the time, the only effects will be greater discing effect and longer to spool up when needing reverse.
by saying that it is barely self sustaining you made it sound like the flame was at risk of being blown out while low idle is selected......when maybe you meant the pilot is at risk of shutting the engine down by mistake.....is that what you meant?
by saying that it is barely self sustaining you made it sound like the flame was at risk of being blown out while low idle is selected......when maybe you meant the pilot is at risk of shutting the engine down by mistake.....is that what you meant?
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Hair of the dogma
OK, intermediate idle was a bad choice of words, but there is a min pwr setting for use of the aircon. (BTW I made no mention of an intermediate idle ident).
The min pwr for aircon ops are generally higher than lo idle, so the condition lever has to be moved forward to achieve that setting.
I take that you realize that numerous power settings are achievable between lo and hi idle which may be set by moving the condition lever anywhere you want it to be.
Bilbert,
you may very well be right re the AFM procedures requiring the condition lever to be moved to Hi prior to take off, but that is not what caused my response to you.
QUOTE
"If you have Lo Idle improperly set in flight, the engine will slow down to 52% which is barely self sustaining and can be a flameout risk (hence CS)."
That my friend, is wrong. 52% is not barely self sustaining, it is just LO IDLE. There is no way known that Pratts would have an cockpit achievable power setting that would even come close to causing a flameout.
Justathought
QUOTE
we were meaning leaving it there all the time, the only effects will be greater discing effect and longer to spool up when needing reverse
And with you I totally agree, that says it all in a nutshell.
OK, intermediate idle was a bad choice of words, but there is a min pwr setting for use of the aircon. (BTW I made no mention of an intermediate idle ident).
The min pwr for aircon ops are generally higher than lo idle, so the condition lever has to be moved forward to achieve that setting.
I take that you realize that numerous power settings are achievable between lo and hi idle which may be set by moving the condition lever anywhere you want it to be.
Bilbert,
you may very well be right re the AFM procedures requiring the condition lever to be moved to Hi prior to take off, but that is not what caused my response to you.
QUOTE
"If you have Lo Idle improperly set in flight, the engine will slow down to 52% which is barely self sustaining and can be a flameout risk (hence CS)."
That my friend, is wrong. 52% is not barely self sustaining, it is just LO IDLE. There is no way known that Pratts would have an cockpit achievable power setting that would even come close to causing a flameout.
Justathought
QUOTE
we were meaning leaving it there all the time, the only effects will be greater discing effect and longer to spool up when needing reverse
And with you I totally agree, that says it all in a nutshell.
What if, or maybe, or absence of presence......
Join Date: May 2005
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I note the proprieter of the beachfront 'Green Island Caravan Park' is conspicuously absent from this thread!
Was the data logger key retreived from this one?
They have a peculiar habit of dislodging and disappearing from the scene of the 'accident'.
Was the data logger key retreived from this one?
They have a peculiar habit of dislodging and disappearing from the scene of the 'accident'.
What gets me is that the Van touched down at least 60mts off end of the runway. Surely the instructor would have realised that they were way too hot and its not as though a Grand Caravan with 2 on board is going to struggle to get out of a situation like that, especially when they have another 200 or so metres to clear the fence. It sounded like they had it in beta and were giving it plenty so it pretty much comes down to a big stuffup on both pilot's behalf. Happy Australia Day Mr Lipmann!
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bilbert
Quote
If you have Lo Idle improperly set in flight, the engine will slow down to 52% which is barely self sustaining and can be a flameout risk (hence CS).
Not true, am with Gen ties on this. He is also right about "intermediate idle", bad choice of words on his part but you do have to advance the FCO about 2 cm to achieve the reqire % Ng for air-con operation after start. The FCO is then advanced to Hi idle during the "Line Up Checks" and normally left there until vacating the runway.
Quote
If you have Lo Idle improperly set in flight, the engine will slow down to 52% which is barely self sustaining and can be a flameout risk (hence CS).
Not true, am with Gen ties on this. He is also right about "intermediate idle", bad choice of words on his part but you do have to advance the FCO about 2 cm to achieve the reqire % Ng for air-con operation after start. The FCO is then advanced to Hi idle during the "Line Up Checks" and normally left there until vacating the runway.
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Lo/Hi Idle whatever....
Simple fact is the pilot failed to hit the runway. How can you miss ALL of a runway from beginning to end if you weren't doing something stupid like approaching at Vref + 50 or 60knots etc??
Sideslip, flap, managing the decent better far EARLIER than over the threshold, I think these are the questions people should be asking.
Z.
Simple fact is the pilot failed to hit the runway. How can you miss ALL of a runway from beginning to end if you weren't doing something stupid like approaching at Vref + 50 or 60knots etc??
Sideslip, flap, managing the decent better far EARLIER than over the threshold, I think these are the questions people should be asking.
Z.