A Pilot Career in Austr./NZ?
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A Pilot Career in Austr./NZ?
Hello everyone,
First, some background info on me: I am currently in High School and am constantly considering and thinking about the best route to becoming a professional pilot, on an international level. I am both a US and a German citizen (and have spent equal amounts of time both in the USA and in Europe), and am currently doing A-Levels in Britain. Through my exposure to both American and European mentalities, I have become somewhat of a mixture of the two, not completely fitting in with either. Therefore, I set my sights to Australia and New Zealand, because my 'research' on your country gives me the impression that it is a mixture of American and European ways of doing/thinking, ideal for me - at least in theory.
Now I gained the impression by reading through this forum that aviation in Australia is quite difficult to get into, as is in both America and Europe. My question to you is if it would make sense for me to come over, or if I would be simply wasting my time trying to find an employer who would employ a foreigner.
My other question is how Australia compares to New Zealand, and where I would find the better opportunities/more open mindedness towards foreigners.
I appreciate your input and ask that it is your true opinion and not a stereotype answer. It is not an easy decision to make when it comes to moving half way around the world and planning to stay long-term.
Thank you in advance,
Marco
First, some background info on me: I am currently in High School and am constantly considering and thinking about the best route to becoming a professional pilot, on an international level. I am both a US and a German citizen (and have spent equal amounts of time both in the USA and in Europe), and am currently doing A-Levels in Britain. Through my exposure to both American and European mentalities, I have become somewhat of a mixture of the two, not completely fitting in with either. Therefore, I set my sights to Australia and New Zealand, because my 'research' on your country gives me the impression that it is a mixture of American and European ways of doing/thinking, ideal for me - at least in theory.
Now I gained the impression by reading through this forum that aviation in Australia is quite difficult to get into, as is in both America and Europe. My question to you is if it would make sense for me to come over, or if I would be simply wasting my time trying to find an employer who would employ a foreigner.
My other question is how Australia compares to New Zealand, and where I would find the better opportunities/more open mindedness towards foreigners.
I appreciate your input and ask that it is your true opinion and not a stereotype answer. It is not an easy decision to make when it comes to moving half way around the world and planning to stay long-term.
Thank you in advance,
Marco
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Marco.
As a Brit who did exactly what you are contemplating let me tell you it is not easy.
Okay, I didn't go to Australia just to fly (married an Australian gawd bless 'er) but going to live there fitted in nicely with my career change so that's where I started (again).
At no time did I encounter any difficulty on the basis of not being an Australian (though I took citizenship asap). It's just that by it's very nature the aviation market there is very, very competitive. I reckon I was extremely lucky to get my first job as an instructor on a salary (unheard of!) and then my second job (again salaried) with a regional airline albeit flying piston singles then twins.
To be honest you would see much quicker progress in your career by getting a JAA licence and staying in Europe where you at least have a realistic chance of getting an airline job straight off if that's what you want. An airline/jet job in Australia is never going to happen for a newbie.
That said it was some of the best flying I've ever done and if it weren't for the money (or lack of it) I'd go back.
As a Brit who did exactly what you are contemplating let me tell you it is not easy.
Okay, I didn't go to Australia just to fly (married an Australian gawd bless 'er) but going to live there fitted in nicely with my career change so that's where I started (again).
At no time did I encounter any difficulty on the basis of not being an Australian (though I took citizenship asap). It's just that by it's very nature the aviation market there is very, very competitive. I reckon I was extremely lucky to get my first job as an instructor on a salary (unheard of!) and then my second job (again salaried) with a regional airline albeit flying piston singles then twins.
To be honest you would see much quicker progress in your career by getting a JAA licence and staying in Europe where you at least have a realistic chance of getting an airline job straight off if that's what you want. An airline/jet job in Australia is never going to happen for a newbie.
That said it was some of the best flying I've ever done and if it weren't for the money (or lack of it) I'd go back.
There are many matters to consider, the main one being, where do you ultimately want to live? Having decided that then you need to optimise your chances of getting a good flying job in that country.
Quality of flight training then becomes a key issue along with whether or not you want (or will need to have) a university degree.
If you want lo live and work in the US I suggest do your training there. It is cheaper and you will find it easier to get into the system if you already a resident.
In Australia you will have to become a resident in order to get a flying job. This is not straightforward as pilots are not on the list of jobs where migration is a priorty. However, there are flying jobs flowing and growth in Aus will likely remain buoyant because of the SE Asian growth factors, but there is a lot of competition. You get get a student visa to study here quite easily provided you study full time (or at least 75% of full time load), but there is a points system for resdidency (check the Aust government website). If you ultimately want to live and fly here, I suggest you do your training (and education) here.
I live in AUS because it is the best country to live in and tolerate our higher taxes due to the large country size and small population as the price to pay.
Generally, we have very high quality flight training and high quality university education
[stru youdoneed a decree to flyaplane but fucan getxtra mental capabibibilities then mabee uhav xtra gud options].
Aus is a great place to live.
good luck
Seabreeze
Quality of flight training then becomes a key issue along with whether or not you want (or will need to have) a university degree.
If you want lo live and work in the US I suggest do your training there. It is cheaper and you will find it easier to get into the system if you already a resident.
In Australia you will have to become a resident in order to get a flying job. This is not straightforward as pilots are not on the list of jobs where migration is a priorty. However, there are flying jobs flowing and growth in Aus will likely remain buoyant because of the SE Asian growth factors, but there is a lot of competition. You get get a student visa to study here quite easily provided you study full time (or at least 75% of full time load), but there is a points system for resdidency (check the Aust government website). If you ultimately want to live and fly here, I suggest you do your training (and education) here.
I live in AUS because it is the best country to live in and tolerate our higher taxes due to the large country size and small population as the price to pay.
Generally, we have very high quality flight training and high quality university education
[stru youdoneed a decree to flyaplane but fucan getxtra mental capabibibilities then mabee uhav xtra gud options].
Aus is a great place to live.
good luck
Seabreeze
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Why don't you try Easyjet or Ryanairs cadet scheme..if you're accepted they will send you down to NZs fabulous metropolis Hamilton..for a few months to train with CTC aviation..you will get to see NZ and then after 300 odd hours you'll be back in England right seating a 737 on wages most of us down here would only dream of.
If u come down here straight off you will end up flying loose rivited old Islanders around getting up the 1500 odd hours you need to be subjected to a 3 day interview (thats right..3 days) to get into your 1st commuter job
see ya soon
If u come down here straight off you will end up flying loose rivited old Islanders around getting up the 1500 odd hours you need to be subjected to a 3 day interview (thats right..3 days) to get into your 1st commuter job
see ya soon
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First of all, thank you for your input, I appreciate it.
Two things I want to clarify are that if I would come 'down under', I would do so not just for training or just for a short period of time, but really to persue my career there, as a resident. Just as if I decide to return to the US, I would both train and stay there.
Another point I'd like to clarify is that I am not aiming for the highest paid or easiest to reach job, but am looking for long term quality of life and enjoyment of where I live.
Mattyj, you mentioned how it would be easier for me to go into Easyjet's or Ryanair's cadet scheme, and I do understand your view point, but I personally would not want to be a pilot for them (besides the fact that there is huge competition for them too). Flying very tight schedules very often on a relatively low salary, to then have to live somewhere in England (those who know about real estate prices in the UK know what I mean) is not what I am aiming for. I know that flying a small plane in the outback will not get me nearly as much pay, but the sense of adventure and possibility to see (and live in) a part of the world that is fascinating in my opinion (not just seeing the outside of the airport terminal for half an hour before turnaround) is worth the hardships involved.
I'm not saying that my career goal is to stay a bush pilot forever; eventually I would also like to reach the airlines, but that is not my primary concern. I want to be happy, that is my primary concern.
As far as pilot pay is concerned, tinpis and NoseGear, that is equally bad in other parts of the world, and thats why it is not really a factor in my decision. The grass is usually not greener on the other side of the fence.
Marco
Two things I want to clarify are that if I would come 'down under', I would do so not just for training or just for a short period of time, but really to persue my career there, as a resident. Just as if I decide to return to the US, I would both train and stay there.
Another point I'd like to clarify is that I am not aiming for the highest paid or easiest to reach job, but am looking for long term quality of life and enjoyment of where I live.
Mattyj, you mentioned how it would be easier for me to go into Easyjet's or Ryanair's cadet scheme, and I do understand your view point, but I personally would not want to be a pilot for them (besides the fact that there is huge competition for them too). Flying very tight schedules very often on a relatively low salary, to then have to live somewhere in England (those who know about real estate prices in the UK know what I mean) is not what I am aiming for. I know that flying a small plane in the outback will not get me nearly as much pay, but the sense of adventure and possibility to see (and live in) a part of the world that is fascinating in my opinion (not just seeing the outside of the airport terminal for half an hour before turnaround) is worth the hardships involved.
I'm not saying that my career goal is to stay a bush pilot forever; eventually I would also like to reach the airlines, but that is not my primary concern. I want to be happy, that is my primary concern.
As far as pilot pay is concerned, tinpis and NoseGear, that is equally bad in other parts of the world, and thats why it is not really a factor in my decision. The grass is usually not greener on the other side of the fence.
Marco
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If you came to New Zealand and did all your training here, you would have the same chance as any other resident when it comes to getting a job - most operators are not prejudice. From what I've heard the same can not be said for many Australian companies with some of them even reluctant to take on kiwis.
The company I fly for at the moment (small regional airline) has pilots from many different backgrounds (about 20% of new recruits over the past 6 months have been aussies).
As mattyj said, you would have to work your way through the NZ GA seen to build hours, and that can take anywhere from 2-5+ years depending on the shape of the industry at the time, and to a large extent, your level of planning, and luck.
There are several good flying schools who could provide you info about training (keep in mind they are biased and may try to paint a slightly rosier picture of employment oportunaties). Give these ones a go to start with. (They all have websites).
Ardmore Flying School (Auckland)
International Aviation Academy of NZ (Christchurch)
Nelson Aviation College
Bay Flight International (Tauranga)
There are also many small aero clubs around the country who are quite good, and offer a different style of training.
Wakatipu Aero Club (Queenstown)
Waikato Aero Club (Hamilton)
Tauranga Aero Club
Hope that helps. Buy the way, NZ is a great place to live
The company I fly for at the moment (small regional airline) has pilots from many different backgrounds (about 20% of new recruits over the past 6 months have been aussies).
As mattyj said, you would have to work your way through the NZ GA seen to build hours, and that can take anywhere from 2-5+ years depending on the shape of the industry at the time, and to a large extent, your level of planning, and luck.
There are several good flying schools who could provide you info about training (keep in mind they are biased and may try to paint a slightly rosier picture of employment oportunaties). Give these ones a go to start with. (They all have websites).
Ardmore Flying School (Auckland)
International Aviation Academy of NZ (Christchurch)
Nelson Aviation College
Bay Flight International (Tauranga)
There are also many small aero clubs around the country who are quite good, and offer a different style of training.
Wakatipu Aero Club (Queenstown)
Waikato Aero Club (Hamilton)
Tauranga Aero Club
Hope that helps. Buy the way, NZ is a great place to live
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if you do your training in NZ, no doubt you will end up in AUS looking for a job anyway along with 500,000 other kiwis....at least NZ is the back door way into AUS, and Centrelink....
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....... And then joining all the other Aussies heading over to NZ for a regional job they don't have to pay for
Nothing wrong with Ardmore Flying School. It's generally accepted that their training (especially for MEIR) is up there with the best. That's why graduates from AFS do pretty well on the job market.
Nothing wrong with Ardmore Flying School. It's generally accepted that their training (especially for MEIR) is up there with the best. That's why graduates from AFS do pretty well on the job market.
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Thank you Cloud Cutter, your post was very helpful.
I have two other questions that came to mind during this thread:
1) Is it necessary to have a university degree to apply for say, Air New Zealand (as it is in the US)? I would most probably get a degree in any case but none the less I would like to know.
2) I am currently deciding whether to finish my A-Levels here in the UK or to go back to Italy (I am actually in Britain for a student exchange but don't know whether to stay another year and complete my secondary education here or to finish High School in Italy). My question is whether staying in Britain would raise my chances of getting accepted in NZ, both from the government (immigration) and from universities (and possibly on a social level?)?
I would like to visit New Zealand (and possibly Australia) next summer (well, your winter) to get a better idea of how I like the country/ies. I would also like to get an idea of the state of the industry there compared to the EU/USA. So if someone could give me a taste of what the industry is like and where to go to get a good idea about it that would be appreciated.
Marco
I have two other questions that came to mind during this thread:
1) Is it necessary to have a university degree to apply for say, Air New Zealand (as it is in the US)? I would most probably get a degree in any case but none the less I would like to know.
2) I am currently deciding whether to finish my A-Levels here in the UK or to go back to Italy (I am actually in Britain for a student exchange but don't know whether to stay another year and complete my secondary education here or to finish High School in Italy). My question is whether staying in Britain would raise my chances of getting accepted in NZ, both from the government (immigration) and from universities (and possibly on a social level?)?
I would like to visit New Zealand (and possibly Australia) next summer (well, your winter) to get a better idea of how I like the country/ies. I would also like to get an idea of the state of the industry there compared to the EU/USA. So if someone could give me a taste of what the industry is like and where to go to get a good idea about it that would be appreciated.
Marco
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The school leaving qualifications that most New Zealanders achieve by the end of high school is completely worthless and is accepted as such by new Zealand employers.
If you can read or write using hyphonics and count up to the end of your fingers and toes you will be ahead of most NZ kids.
Oh and a good working knowledge of the Treaty of Waitangi
If you can read or write using hyphonics and count up to the end of your fingers and toes you will be ahead of most NZ kids.
Oh and a good working knowledge of the Treaty of Waitangi
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Hang on Cloud Cutter, don't give Boeing4eva the wrong info. The only reason Ardmore graduates do so well in the job market is the 'in one end out the other' sausage factory mentality that they operate by. It just like if I say to a 100 or more girls "nice shoes wanna f**k?" eventually one will say yes. That's why some of the 78 million Ardmore students have gotten jobs! Don't forget that 95%+ of the students are now flipping burgers at Mickey D's or stocking shelves at the local kai market. And I'm talking of AFS as in the last 5-10 years as opposed to before that, it's a lot different now!
P.S Tinpis love your work
P.S Tinpis love your work
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Fair point, same for all organisations. From my experience you can pick the ones that will make it on day one, it's purely an attitude thing. If one is going to make it, AFS would not be a bad way to go, otherwise, it don't matter where ya go.
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Totally agree, you can often pick based on attitude etc on day 1. However I have noticed the attitude's of pilots can be greatly shaped by where you did your early training and to that extent from your instructor(s) as well. I reackon in my humble opinion that in both of these regards AFS and Massey have a sh*tload to answer for! Therefore whilst anyone may overcome the 'handicap' of an upbringing at such a training establishment I still think the best way to go for a prospective student pilot is an aero club based effort where the chance of an instructing or CPL job may be on the cards at the end of it. Also being able to fly a damn aeroplane properly helps and that's another topic (admittedly done to death) that hinders AFS and Massey students.
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What do you think of the International Aviation Academy in Christchurch? I haven't heard any negative comments from them or Nelson Aviation College so far.. What do you think?
What about flight training in Australia?
Thanks,
Marco
What about flight training in Australia?
Thanks,
Marco
