500 Hrs Multi PIC..????????
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500 Hrs Multi PIC..????????
This has probably been covered before..but, where the hell did this stupendously idiotic requirement come from??
Story goes...I applied to said 737 operator, as an F/O with 2000hrs of heavy jet 757/767 multi-crew experience behind me, only to be told I dont have 500hrs multi-PIC therefore I dont meet the minimum requirements!
I'm not moaning about a bruised ego here, I just cant think for the life of me how this requirement is anything but idiotic..any thoughts?
757
Story goes...I applied to said 737 operator, as an F/O with 2000hrs of heavy jet 757/767 multi-crew experience behind me, only to be told I dont have 500hrs multi-PIC therefore I dont meet the minimum requirements!
I'm not moaning about a bruised ego here, I just cant think for the life of me how this requirement is anything but idiotic..any thoughts?
757
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Capt, yep it is their trainset, although for insurance?..500hrs multi PIC gets you insured, and time on type and experience doesnt?
For a command upgrade?...that makes no sense at all.."yeah you've got 500hrs on a PA31..we can work with you..this other guy with 2000hrs 737/757/767 experience..nah hes obviously a rookie"
For a command upgrade?...that makes no sense at all.."yeah you've got 500hrs on a PA31..we can work with you..this other guy with 2000hrs 737/757/767 experience..nah hes obviously a rookie"
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really tinny how so?
PA31, BE200, mostly command...just doesnt add up to 500..Id say my experience of Africa..the US..and NZ and Oz was reasonable..certainly not F*ck all.
Additionally tinny..do you think Im not capable of operating a 737 as an F/O?
Guess I wont be a pain then tinny cos I've got 1400hrs PIC or so
PA31, BE200, mostly command...just doesnt add up to 500..Id say my experience of Africa..the US..and NZ and Oz was reasonable..certainly not F*ck all.
Additionally tinny..do you think Im not capable of operating a 737 as an F/O?
Guess I wont be a pain then tinny cos I've got 1400hrs PIC or so
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No Tinny.....had over 700 hrs command at that point (250 of which was multi) its just in the UK there's no requirement for 3 moon landings in the last 90 days to fly what is a basic and rather docile aeroplane..even when you lose an engine at rotation (which I did with an aeroplane that weighed around 12000lbs at the time..on an ISA+20 day). 2 months after that an 100 hours later offered a 737 F/O position..then upgraded to a 757/767.
Which brings me nicely back to my point..why the requirement?
Which brings me nicely back to my point..why the requirement?
You are obviously not interested in what anyone here has to say. Sounds like moaning about a bruised ego to me.
Did you ask them why they want the command time?
Did you ask them why they want the command time?
Calm down fellas!!
757 Manipulator,
I think you'll find it is still a requirement under CAOs to have a requisite amount of Command time before you can be PIC of a multi-pilot aircraft (I think it's 750, I'm not sure if there is a minimum amount of twin time.)
It's an archaic throw-back to the bush-flying type background of the majority of Australian Airline aspirents.
As such, it is pointless joining an airline with less as an FO, as you will never gain the required hours in the RHS.
I think Qantas get around it as FOs can log command time while the Captain is off the Flight deck, but at Ansett we had Cadets who hd to go and fly lighties in their spare time to get the hours to qualify for command.
Tinpis,
I'm afraid you are displaying the usual Aus-centris head-in-sand attitudes prevelent in Aus Aviation. In Europe virtually no new-hire airline FO would have 500 hrs twin command, as there are virtually no twins here to fly!! Most have either come straight from flying school with 250 odd hours, or maybe have done a couple of years as FO in a turboprop. On the whole they do a bangup job as FOs, and most successfully upgrade after about 4 years with 3000 hrs or there abouts.
Those few BE200s and the like are indeed being flown by people with less than 500 hrs command, as there is no one else to fly them.
The world does not finish at Darwin...
757 Manipulator,
I think you'll find it is still a requirement under CAOs to have a requisite amount of Command time before you can be PIC of a multi-pilot aircraft (I think it's 750, I'm not sure if there is a minimum amount of twin time.)
It's an archaic throw-back to the bush-flying type background of the majority of Australian Airline aspirents.
As such, it is pointless joining an airline with less as an FO, as you will never gain the required hours in the RHS.
I think Qantas get around it as FOs can log command time while the Captain is off the Flight deck, but at Ansett we had Cadets who hd to go and fly lighties in their spare time to get the hours to qualify for command.
Tinpis,
I'm afraid you are displaying the usual Aus-centris head-in-sand attitudes prevelent in Aus Aviation. In Europe virtually no new-hire airline FO would have 500 hrs twin command, as there are virtually no twins here to fly!! Most have either come straight from flying school with 250 odd hours, or maybe have done a couple of years as FO in a turboprop. On the whole they do a bangup job as FOs, and most successfully upgrade after about 4 years with 3000 hrs or there abouts.
Those few BE200s and the like are indeed being flown by people with less than 500 hrs command, as there is no one else to fly them.
The world does not finish at Darwin...
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Thanks Wiz for injecting a little perspective into this, I guess I'll go back to the Kingair man on my days off and see if they want a spare bod to fly for beer!
Tinny..it wasnt my intention to cast brick bats at the Oz system...it just seems the requirement is a little pointless really.
Capt XXXX thanks for your comments, I wonder if some of those VFR boys would be so brash if they had to go into Innsbruk..or perhaps Chambery on a crappy minimums day.
Oh well...more multi-PIC it is, better than digging holes for a living.
Tinny..it wasnt my intention to cast brick bats at the Oz system...it just seems the requirement is a little pointless really.
Capt XXXX thanks for your comments, I wonder if some of those VFR boys would be so brash if they had to go into Innsbruk..or perhaps Chambery on a crappy minimums day.
Oh well...more multi-PIC it is, better than digging holes for a living.
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Have we all finished swinging our dikcs around yet?
Seems to me a certain number here are trying to show their field of aviation has greater skill etc etc.
And people wonder why the aviation industry is so fractured.
Do I know why there is a 500 multi com. req? Not a clue, the simple fact is that to work in Australia it is a box that has to be ticked.
Do I think it's a stupid requirement? Have seen some individuals who have been captains on RPT tuboprops in US and moved here. The descisions made by these ones (flying a single piston job), have been sad and at times dangerous. I've also seen cadets show so much polish and ability, to be told they now have to go find 500 multi command.
The answer is relative.
Seems to me a certain number here are trying to show their field of aviation has greater skill etc etc.
And people wonder why the aviation industry is so fractured.
Do I know why there is a 500 multi com. req? Not a clue, the simple fact is that to work in Australia it is a box that has to be ticked.
Do I think it's a stupid requirement? Have seen some individuals who have been captains on RPT tuboprops in US and moved here. The descisions made by these ones (flying a single piston job), have been sad and at times dangerous. I've also seen cadets show so much polish and ability, to be told they now have to go find 500 multi command.
The answer is relative.
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As a transplanted Kiwi (who has flown in Oz..in the places we know and love) now flying and loving living in the UK, Im sure at some point there was a valid reason for the 500hr requirement. Now it seems the rule is there to prevent outsiders from gaining employment.
I chuckled when I saw an advert for RFDS PC12 drivers, it asked for the 500hrs hours bit, how absurd
Come on all you aussie drivers, just because its a tick in the box does that make it relevant?
Flying a Partenavia or C210 up north through the rainy season bears no similarity to true multi-crew Ops on transport catagory aircraft, been there done it..got the T-Shirt, two entirely different skill sets required.
Maxgrad, this is not dick swinging, its about what is relevant and valid today, why shouldn't the rules and regulations be held to account??
I chuckled when I saw an advert for RFDS PC12 drivers, it asked for the 500hrs hours bit, how absurd
Come on all you aussie drivers, just because its a tick in the box does that make it relevant?
Flying a Partenavia or C210 up north through the rainy season bears no similarity to true multi-crew Ops on transport catagory aircraft, been there done it..got the T-Shirt, two entirely different skill sets required.
Maxgrad, this is not dick swinging, its about what is relevant and valid today, why shouldn't the rules and regulations be held to account??
Last edited by haughtney1; 7th Sep 2005 at 14:58.
757manipulator
"even when you lose an engine at rotation (which I did with an aeroplane that weighed around 12000lbs at the time..on an ISA+20 day)"
Please tell me more, I assume you rejected the takeoff and stopped straight ahead, not possible to continue flying in the B200 I flew at that weight and conditions.
haughtney1
"I chuckled when I saw an advert for RFDS PC12 drivers, it asked for the 500hrs hours bit, how absurd"
Insurance requirements are just as valid as regulatory requirements. 757 FO time will not help you do a black hole circling approach to a strip with only emergency flares.
If you have two pilots, who have equal qualifications, one has say 500 PIC twin otter, and the other 1500 hrs PIC 210, which one would you employ to fly a PC12 ?
nomorecatering,
Yes it does, however what one airline values in a pilot varies. What criteria one airline uses is not the same as another.
I have seen this requirement for an airline in the UK for a F/O position "Require 2500-3000 hours total time, to include at least 1500 hours commercial jet time"
Makes 500 multi PIC easy in comparison.
"even when you lose an engine at rotation (which I did with an aeroplane that weighed around 12000lbs at the time..on an ISA+20 day)"
Please tell me more, I assume you rejected the takeoff and stopped straight ahead, not possible to continue flying in the B200 I flew at that weight and conditions.
haughtney1
"I chuckled when I saw an advert for RFDS PC12 drivers, it asked for the 500hrs hours bit, how absurd"
Insurance requirements are just as valid as regulatory requirements. 757 FO time will not help you do a black hole circling approach to a strip with only emergency flares.
If you have two pilots, who have equal qualifications, one has say 500 PIC twin otter, and the other 1500 hrs PIC 210, which one would you employ to fly a PC12 ?
nomorecatering,
Yes it does, however what one airline values in a pilot varies. What criteria one airline uses is not the same as another.
I have seen this requirement for an airline in the UK for a F/O position "Require 2500-3000 hours total time, to include at least 1500 hours commercial jet time"
Makes 500 multi PIC easy in comparison.
Interesting...
Largish single pilot turbines where one part of flying I missed out on. I basically went from piston to jet. Does something like a BE200 not have a V1?
Largish single pilot turbines where one part of flying I missed out on. I basically went from piston to jet. Does something like a BE200 not have a V1?
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I remember many years ago when I joined TAA their then Chief Check and Training Captain Frank Fischer (few of his ilk around these days) telling my course that they had done a lot of research and found that after 8 years as an FO, if you had any potential at all, it didn't matter where you came from or what your experience, you'd still make an equally good captain. As I had very very little time as actual PIC (alone in the LHS with no other pilot on board) this was great news. I think I had (other than dual, ICUS etc) a total of about 200 hrs as "sole pilot" on anything at all when I had the chance for my DC9 command. Passed somehow.
The Chief Pilot on the 777 of the airline where I now work went from an F5 pilot to DC-10 F/O overnight. Coped. I knew numbers of guys in TAA who'd gone from Chipmunks to Viscounts! There'd be a good thread about similar career jumps. I remember many telling me years back that I was almost a lost soul if I didn't have the magic "glass cockpit" experience. Bull... took an hour or two of CBT then all OK.
Yes it is their train set, but don't take it personally. My dad had command of a Lancaster with about 300 hours.
The Chief Pilot on the 777 of the airline where I now work went from an F5 pilot to DC-10 F/O overnight. Coped. I knew numbers of guys in TAA who'd gone from Chipmunks to Viscounts! There'd be a good thread about similar career jumps. I remember many telling me years back that I was almost a lost soul if I didn't have the magic "glass cockpit" experience. Bull... took an hour or two of CBT then all OK.
Yes it is their train set, but don't take it personally. My dad had command of a Lancaster with about 300 hours.
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every bloody airline that I have worked for has had "stupid" requirements.....ie if you cant tick the box you get to stand around like a spare prick at a party!!!!! sort of have to get over mate ...ie their job ,their rules....most are designed to alienate certain groups....looks like it was your day!!!!
By the way boys ...the pissup is at my place,I,llget the piss,the sheilas and the dunny paper....Bring your own condoms
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By the way boys ...the pissup is at my place,I,llget the piss,the sheilas and the dunny paper....Bring your own condoms
kapai