500 Hrs Multi PIC..????????
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oIomanipulator
If you don't get my point then I'm sorry.
I agree with SWH.
Hey 757, how about you get that 500hr multi, and then while you are at it, sit the Aussie ATPL subjects, just so we know you would be capable of flying jets in Australia.
If you don't get my point then I'm sorry.
I agree with SWH.
Hey 757, how about you get that 500hr multi, and then while you are at it, sit the Aussie ATPL subjects, just so we know you would be capable of flying jets in Australia.
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Bloggs......I have an NZ ATPL (filled in the form and it became a CASA ATPL with minimal fuss), so no need to sit the Oz subjects..enough said.
SWH, well then I guess as I said, luck...auto-feather was fitted, and as I dont have 500hrs multi PIC its safe to say my skills are inferior to yours...on the subject of JAR..I have to agree with you about the 14 exams, 3 of which are probably relevant..(just sat the law exam as I got the UK exemption and then a JAR license after 500hrs JAR 25 experience) but thats not what I'm on this thread debating...is it? And honestly I cant believe the petty crap that you SWH and Bloggs seem hell bent on spouting off about, get the chips of your shoulders and grow up! its a global market there is no such thing as jobs for the boys anymore
Yet to have an answer about my original question.
Boston
Nearly 4000hrs TT
1450 PIC of which 350 or so is Multi PIC
A bit over 2000 hrs F/O time 757/767...command upgrade soon if I stay.
Also thanks for all the PM's guys..you certainly seem to be right about this subject bringing all the bitterness out of some of the Oz crews.
SWH, well then I guess as I said, luck...auto-feather was fitted, and as I dont have 500hrs multi PIC its safe to say my skills are inferior to yours...on the subject of JAR..I have to agree with you about the 14 exams, 3 of which are probably relevant..(just sat the law exam as I got the UK exemption and then a JAR license after 500hrs JAR 25 experience) but thats not what I'm on this thread debating...is it? And honestly I cant believe the petty crap that you SWH and Bloggs seem hell bent on spouting off about, get the chips of your shoulders and grow up! its a global market there is no such thing as jobs for the boys anymore
Yet to have an answer about my original question.
Boston
Nearly 4000hrs TT
1450 PIC of which 350 or so is Multi PIC
A bit over 2000 hrs F/O time 757/767...command upgrade soon if I stay.
Also thanks for all the PM's guys..you certainly seem to be right about this subject bringing all the bitterness out of some of the Oz crews.
Last edited by 757manipulator; 9th Sep 2005 at 18:41.
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Swh
Read this again, I said MULTI -PILOT Aeroplane
jarJar
in charter category all a pilot needs to command a multi pilot aircraft above 5700kg is an ATPL.(pls correct me if im wrong).
jarJar
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The replies to this thread, particularly the aggression and elitest attitude of Tinpis, is typical of Australian Aviation and reminds me of why I left.
It really is 'thru the looking glass' down there at the mad hatters tea party.
It really is 'thru the looking glass' down there at the mad hatters tea party.
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So sad to see the usual boring, moronic sh!t that passes for 'comment' on these pages..
When I left Oz 4 years ago I came to realise how much bigger aviation is is other parts of the world. I have flown with guys who went from Mig 21 (900hrs total) to RHS of the B767 with no trouble, because they were smart, motivated and receptive.
I have met people with 10,000+ hours in Australian regional flying THAT I WOULD NOT LEND MY BIKE TO!
The norm overseas is for 250 hr pilots to be employed to fly B757, A320, B146 etc.. and they are able to do this with great success. You do not hear of any safety issues arising from this practice, do you?
Funny to also hear the occassional "get in line" or "join the queue" by those who are flying bugsmashers in outback WA or wherever (as if there is a line or a queue into VB or QF..Ha!).
It is this sort of parochial narrow mindedness that characterises Oz aviation and it is dull. As if 500 hrs flying a C310 around the Bungles makes an aviator : poppycock!
A lot of this type of flying generates attitudes that have to be unlearned in order to become an effective and safe airline pilot.
And yes, I did my time in "the bush"...
When I left Oz 4 years ago I came to realise how much bigger aviation is is other parts of the world. I have flown with guys who went from Mig 21 (900hrs total) to RHS of the B767 with no trouble, because they were smart, motivated and receptive.
I have met people with 10,000+ hours in Australian regional flying THAT I WOULD NOT LEND MY BIKE TO!
The norm overseas is for 250 hr pilots to be employed to fly B757, A320, B146 etc.. and they are able to do this with great success. You do not hear of any safety issues arising from this practice, do you?
Funny to also hear the occassional "get in line" or "join the queue" by those who are flying bugsmashers in outback WA or wherever (as if there is a line or a queue into VB or QF..Ha!).
It is this sort of parochial narrow mindedness that characterises Oz aviation and it is dull. As if 500 hrs flying a C310 around the Bungles makes an aviator : poppycock!
A lot of this type of flying generates attitudes that have to be unlearned in order to become an effective and safe airline pilot.And yes, I did my time in "the bush"...
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Please save any further nasty comments... just want an answer from anyone who cares to give give me an unbiased explanation to the following :
Why was I finally invited (last month) by Eastern Australia Airlines for Stage 2 (and perhaps further) of their recruitment process? I do not have 500 hours Multi PIC. Don't they "require" it?
I've got :
4200 hours TT
3800 hours Multi Engine EFIS Turbo-Prop (all F/O)
1100 hours Beech 1900-D (all F/O)
2700 hours ATR 72-500 (all F/O)
5 hours Multi PIC (from my M-E CIR days)
...and of course an Aussie ATPL, Residency and everything else they require...
Were they using that discretionary "waiver" hidden in some airlines' Ops Manuals that most of us know so little about?
Like I said, only answers that would explain it please!
Why was I finally invited (last month) by Eastern Australia Airlines for Stage 2 (and perhaps further) of their recruitment process? I do not have 500 hours Multi PIC. Don't they "require" it?
I've got :
4200 hours TT
3800 hours Multi Engine EFIS Turbo-Prop (all F/O)
1100 hours Beech 1900-D (all F/O)
2700 hours ATR 72-500 (all F/O)
5 hours Multi PIC (from my M-E CIR days)
...and of course an Aussie ATPL, Residency and everything else they require...
Were they using that discretionary "waiver" hidden in some airlines' Ops Manuals that most of us know so little about?
Like I said, only answers that would explain it please!
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WHAT???
Look mate, without that valuable COMMAND time in the gaffa, you are quite obviously a LOOSER. You have to PROVE yourself and DO YOUR TIME in the scrub, like every one else.
******s like you make me sick.
Who do you think you ARE? Coming in from os with all that experience (not 'real world', obviously, tho).?You have to do your time in the bush and JOIN THE QUEUE like every one else before WE respect you.....
Seriously.. I would say that you have got this far because you have relevent experience and demonstrated ability. Nothing more, or less.
Look mate, without that valuable COMMAND time in the gaffa, you are quite obviously a LOOSER. You have to PROVE yourself and DO YOUR TIME in the scrub, like every one else.
******s like you make me sick.
Who do you think you ARE? Coming in from os with all that experience (not 'real world', obviously, tho).?You have to do your time in the bush and JOIN THE QUEUE like every one else before WE respect you.....
Seriously.. I would say that you have got this far because you have relevent experience and demonstrated ability. Nothing more, or less.
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9Ws....it's probably because all future pilots for the QF regionals have to hold a DHC8 endorsement prior to employment; this has obviously made the job pretty unappealing (understandably) to many people.
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Yeah, but what happens when they select me and those "missing 500 hours" are staring me (and them) in the face?
Won't others want to know why and how I was selected without those precious hours... and lead to a furore in the community... and on Pprune?
Won't others want to know why and how I was selected without those precious hours... and lead to a furore in the community... and on Pprune?
757manipulator,
I agree with you it is a global market.
In my view people have jumped to the conclusion that there is a regulatory requirement for the 500 hrs command, I don’t think that is the case, they just set that as something they value from a pilot. I don’t think VB considers itself as an entry level airline.
Whilst you value your jet FO experience, VB obviously value other attributes.
Your situation is not uncommon, I know of pilots with 5-10000 hrs jet command having to go back and do Year 12 maths and physics for another airline to meet the minimum education requirements set by the airline. Also similar in my example of ICAO ATPL holders wanting to gain employment in a JAR regulated country.
Whilst I agree with your case, and those who had to go back and do Year 12 maths and physics would be more than capable of doing the job based upon your experience, I also support the stance the airline has taken.
That being, they have set standards, this is the standard, you are required to meet the standard for consideration.
The minimums at VB and QF are well below levels set by other airlines, they are not at the far extreme.
Some examples for FO consideration minimums elsewhere
Whilst airlines are able to recruit with the experience levels set, they will remain in force, as market conditions vary, experience levels vary.
jarjar,
As I said you can fly a C550 and other aircraft in Australia single pilot charter, with a CPL. It was certified as minimum 2 pilot aircraft.
To quote the C550 type certificate data sheet A22CE
These single pilot operations are not with passengers.
I agree with you it is a global market.
In my view people have jumped to the conclusion that there is a regulatory requirement for the 500 hrs command, I don’t think that is the case, they just set that as something they value from a pilot. I don’t think VB considers itself as an entry level airline.
Whilst you value your jet FO experience, VB obviously value other attributes.
Your situation is not uncommon, I know of pilots with 5-10000 hrs jet command having to go back and do Year 12 maths and physics for another airline to meet the minimum education requirements set by the airline. Also similar in my example of ICAO ATPL holders wanting to gain employment in a JAR regulated country.
Whilst I agree with your case, and those who had to go back and do Year 12 maths and physics would be more than capable of doing the job based upon your experience, I also support the stance the airline has taken.
That being, they have set standards, this is the standard, you are required to meet the standard for consideration.
The minimums at VB and QF are well below levels set by other airlines, they are not at the far extreme.
Some examples for FO consideration minimums elsewhere
- Air Malta - 2000 hours TT, 500 hours on A320 with current type rating.
- Air Scotland - 1500 hours TT, of 500 hours on B757/767.
- Dragonair - 4000 TT, 500 Jet or 1000 Turbo Prop
- Emirates - 4000 TT 2000 hours multi-crew and multi engine aircraft.
- Excel - fATPL and 1500 hours
- Fischer - 500 hours on 737
- Flyjet - fATPL and preferably a B757/767 rating, MCC and 1000 hours flying, including 500 hours on multi engined aircraft.
- GB Airways - 2000 hours TT to include 1500 commercial jet time
- Gulfair - 1500 hours TT of which 500 multi crew turbo prop or heavier
- Malaysian - Minimum of 1000 MAS recognised hours and no less than 500 hours on an equivalent or higher type for B737 and a minimum of 500 MAS recognised hours on an equivalent or higher type for F50/DHC6. Between 27 - 45 years of age
- Monarch - UK or JAR-FCL, fATPL MCC course and 2500 hours flying experience, of which 500 hours must have been completed on a heavy turboprop or jet in excess of 15 tonnes.
- Qatar - 2000 hours (airline time) with 1000 hours time on EFIS equipped medium/heavy jets
- Virgin Atlantic - 2500-3000 hours TT to include at least 1500 hours commercial jet time. Full UK or JAR ATPL.
Whilst airlines are able to recruit with the experience levels set, they will remain in force, as market conditions vary, experience levels vary.
jarjar,
As I said you can fly a C550 and other aircraft in Australia single pilot charter, with a CPL. It was certified as minimum 2 pilot aircraft.
To quote the C550 type certificate data sheet A22CE
Minimum Crew For all flights: 2 persons (pilot and co-pilot)
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SWH..couldnt agree more..the point being is that standard actually valued?..or set as a barrier to those who dont qualify?..just a thought.
UR2.....Ive flown the bus Sim..and I dont like it..just a personal preference thing, I guess Im a boeing man, also Im not about to part with any hard earned flight pay, just so some Lo-Co can line its pockets with an inflated sum for a type-rating. A bond is ok..stumping the cash up isnt.
Ryainair as you well know are now so short of crews that they are trying all sorts of tricks to try and get guys...mostly because IMHO they screwed crews for too long(paying for type-ratings), and now very few experienced pilots want to work for them.
UR2.....Ive flown the bus Sim..and I dont like it..just a personal preference thing, I guess Im a boeing man, also Im not about to part with any hard earned flight pay, just so some Lo-Co can line its pockets with an inflated sum for a type-rating. A bond is ok..stumping the cash up isnt.
Ryainair as you well know are now so short of crews that they are trying all sorts of tricks to try and get guys...mostly because IMHO they screwed crews for too long(paying for type-ratings), and now very few experienced pilots want to work for them.
Props are for boats!
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Ok ok ok Manipulator,
I appologise for my previous post. But you can understand everyones frustrations in this aviation world. How one can get so close but yet so far.You will meet different barriers in different countries. Why? Because they can. I can understand why you want to live in good old Oz. I miss it deerly everyday but I have to pay bills and I have to have secure employment and Oz is becoming a harder place to get that security everyday.
Im not sure how you may improve your predicament. Maybe you could try some of these companies Swh has listed. Im not sure that youll get a command that quickly in VB these days or even QF. I would press on for an Asian position if your that way inclined, then maybe depending on the airline you might get a Command earlier.
Or plan B is you may want to go bush and get some twin command. I know of Ansett cadets who did their time at Kendalls, then took leave without pay to get those Multi -Command time at Charter company. Some of these guys even enjoyed it.
I enjoyed every minute of and still do. The best part of flying is flying all the stuff on the ground is the grin it and bare it stuff.
Sheep . 
best of luck mate
I appologise for my previous post. But you can understand everyones frustrations in this aviation world. How one can get so close but yet so far.You will meet different barriers in different countries. Why? Because they can. I can understand why you want to live in good old Oz. I miss it deerly everyday but I have to pay bills and I have to have secure employment and Oz is becoming a harder place to get that security everyday.
Im not sure how you may improve your predicament. Maybe you could try some of these companies Swh has listed. Im not sure that youll get a command that quickly in VB these days or even QF. I would press on for an Asian position if your that way inclined, then maybe depending on the airline you might get a Command earlier.
Or plan B is you may want to go bush and get some twin command. I know of Ansett cadets who did their time at Kendalls, then took leave without pay to get those Multi -Command time at Charter company. Some of these guys even enjoyed it.
I enjoyed every minute of and still do. The best part of flying is flying all the stuff on the ground is the grin it and bare it stuff.
Sheep .
best of luck mate
Last edited by Sheep Guts; 10th Sep 2005 at 16:42.
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(which I did with an aeroplane that weighed around 12000lbs at the time..on an ISA+20 day)
Must have been a freaky day all round
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Bullwinkle...it was in Austria!......not quite Oz Sheepguts..Im not fussy Ozzy (preferably) but NZ..(No 500hrs req..but chief pilots who look on you as a heratic for leaving in the first place)
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Wanna hear the real secret...?
Nobody likes hiring Aussie bush pilots cause they can't handle the Aircon in the heavy metal..knocks em for 6!! Too cold apparently..
..Take way too many sickies!!
Nobody likes hiring Aussie bush pilots cause they can't handle the Aircon in the heavy metal..knocks em for 6!! Too cold apparently..
..Take way too many sickies!!
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757 mate....let me tell you how to do it.....crab a tinnie...scratch your balls,and listen.......I got my licenses in 1976 ...was at lincoln doing a ag sci degree...got a job in hokitika during the deer vension recovery era(end of)...anyway managed to 'steal" a ppl/cpl...time at the wgtn aero club...a yank helicopter pilot taught me how to make houses smaller...tried to get time but to no avail...buggered off to Oz, then to papau new guinea....ended up in Alaska ,enrolled my self as a student at UAA...LIED bigtime about my residense status...told everybody I was an exchange student,false SSN # etc etc...took them 3 yrs to catch me...got caught as an Illlegal alien and sent back to kiwi.......married a shelia(yank) for $2000 plus a car...picked her up hitch hiking around kiwi and let her stay at my mums house ...was flying floats at the time,..got the green card.... came back(alaska) kept flying ...shelia divorced me but still have the green card.... ..this is not a pretty picture...but it is the truth.....since I was born in porirua,didnt go to Auckland boys grammer,didnt personally know the pope ,or have a letter of reccomendation from the governer general,to even think i could do what I,m doing was generally considered a "wet dream".......mate ...my point...sometimes you have do to things that are not conventional.....do I consider myself lucky...**** NO.....it wasnt handed to me on a plate...toughen up mate ....find a way.......IF ANYONE CAN ..A KIWI CAN!!!!!!!!!..pepa wheru wheru
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There is a huge over-supply of pilots in Australia and it has always been so. So an arbitrary figure of 500 hours command twins was thought of countless years back by operators as a simple means of culling the numbers - like culling the over-supply of kangaroos (well, it is Australia in'it?)
Then some bright spark thought of further culling by asking for 3,4, or even 5 instrument rating renewals. The fact that the applicant could renew his instrument rating each year without having flown one hour in IMC didn't matter.
A friend of mine applied for Virgin Blue last year and didn't get an interview. Why not? Well he only had 5000 hours of F/O time on B747-400's flying around the world, but without 500 hours command on a Seminole or Apache or similar, he was deemed not acceptable to fly as F/O from Melbourne to Sydney and return in gin clear weather. He is now a 747 captain overseas.
A typical Aussie culling is with the RFDS who demand 500 hours instrument time before a pilot "qualifies" for RFDS status. And all the RFDS is is just another GA outfit. The RFDS bleat incessantly that they cannot find enough experienced pilots. There are a thousand experienced pilots that would welcome a job with the RFDS, but the culling madness prevents them from demonstrating their skills.
There are first officers with Dragonair on the A330 with no more than 300 hours total time and have proved first class crew members with exceptional knowledge and piloting skills. So the hours do not necessarily mean competency. 500 hours command twin in GA usally means you must have broken the rules in order to survive without getting the sack for being straight down the line. Yet some operators remain proud of their insistence of 500 twin command before they give you a job.
Then some bright spark thought of further culling by asking for 3,4, or even 5 instrument rating renewals. The fact that the applicant could renew his instrument rating each year without having flown one hour in IMC didn't matter.
A friend of mine applied for Virgin Blue last year and didn't get an interview. Why not? Well he only had 5000 hours of F/O time on B747-400's flying around the world, but without 500 hours command on a Seminole or Apache or similar, he was deemed not acceptable to fly as F/O from Melbourne to Sydney and return in gin clear weather. He is now a 747 captain overseas.
A typical Aussie culling is with the RFDS who demand 500 hours instrument time before a pilot "qualifies" for RFDS status. And all the RFDS is is just another GA outfit. The RFDS bleat incessantly that they cannot find enough experienced pilots. There are a thousand experienced pilots that would welcome a job with the RFDS, but the culling madness prevents them from demonstrating their skills.
There are first officers with Dragonair on the A330 with no more than 300 hours total time and have proved first class crew members with exceptional knowledge and piloting skills. So the hours do not necessarily mean competency. 500 hours command twin in GA usally means you must have broken the rules in order to survive without getting the sack for being straight down the line. Yet some operators remain proud of their insistence of 500 twin command before they give you a job.
A small correction to the above - only part of the RFDS requires those high hours...
I know as I got in with 170 hrs IF....(the inflight actual in cloud type of IF to clarify!)
I know as I got in with 170 hrs IF....(the inflight actual in cloud type of IF to clarify!)