B58 and PA31 wages hits $60-80K P/A!!
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B58 and PA31 wages hits $60-80K P/A!!
This was taken from the AFAP site today…………
Pilots and Co-Pilots
XXX XXXX Airlines
Innovative company that supplies high quality remote based air transport services throughout WA's Pilbara Region.
Seeking flexible, highly motivated professional Flight Crew to join operation located at Karratha WA.
Salary packages AUD $60K-$80K, IAW experience.
As I was curious to know more about what aircraft they operate to pay that type of dough, I ventured onto their web site and found this…………
As a Flight Crew member you will be required to work at our clients remote mine site and construction bases, where you will fly Multi-engine IFR Beechcraft BE58 & Piper Navajo PA31-310 & 350 aircraft in a two crew cockpit environment.
Is this for real??, are operators starting to pay this much for light piston twin pilots?
This is more than some companies around Australia pay their B1900, Metro, Braz, and Jetstream Captains!!
Now, as for two crew operations…………. Seems that this is done in Chieftains and Barons, What class are these under in section 40’ish (don’t have them ere, but recall reading it two days ago, and didn’t see any ref to these A/C types as two crew Furthermore, what are the endorsement requirements for a Chieftain or Baron First Officer……….. Seems weird, but I may be wrong!!).
Reminds me of the TV series “Big Sky”
Keep Smiling Sunshiners!!
Cheers
Ace
Pilots and Co-Pilots
XXX XXXX Airlines
Innovative company that supplies high quality remote based air transport services throughout WA's Pilbara Region.
Seeking flexible, highly motivated professional Flight Crew to join operation located at Karratha WA.
Salary packages AUD $60K-$80K, IAW experience.
As I was curious to know more about what aircraft they operate to pay that type of dough, I ventured onto their web site and found this…………
As a Flight Crew member you will be required to work at our clients remote mine site and construction bases, where you will fly Multi-engine IFR Beechcraft BE58 & Piper Navajo PA31-310 & 350 aircraft in a two crew cockpit environment.
Is this for real??, are operators starting to pay this much for light piston twin pilots?
This is more than some companies around Australia pay their B1900, Metro, Braz, and Jetstream Captains!!
Now, as for two crew operations…………. Seems that this is done in Chieftains and Barons, What class are these under in section 40’ish (don’t have them ere, but recall reading it two days ago, and didn’t see any ref to these A/C types as two crew Furthermore, what are the endorsement requirements for a Chieftain or Baron First Officer……….. Seems weird, but I may be wrong!!).
Reminds me of the TV series “Big Sky”
Keep Smiling Sunshiners!!
Cheers
Ace
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Ive flown light piston twins in situations that required two pilots/crew (as per the clients request). The Baron and Chieftan are hardly a two pilot a/c but there are some circumstances where one can title himself a 'co-pilot' on the said a/c and log it accordingly. I would be interested in what the two pilot procedures are in such in a/c 
In my cases i was more a case of the second pilot just watching and making sure you didnt bugger up.
Having said that a second set of eyes can be a lifesaver and if someones going to pay you over 60k then go for it
The key word here is a 60-80k package which may mean you get accommodation Karratha which the company considers to be worth over 10k a year etc etc. Hopefully its a legit deal and someone really does want someone with the 'right stuff'/
In my cases i was more a case of the second pilot just watching and making sure you didnt bugger up.Having said that a second set of eyes can be a lifesaver and if someones going to pay you over 60k then go for it
The key word here is a 60-80k package which may mean you get accommodation Karratha which the company considers to be worth over 10k a year etc etc. Hopefully its a legit deal and someone really does want someone with the 'right stuff'/
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Lejitt
From what I can gather (from an inside source) it sounds legitimate.
It is after all a mining company pursuing the experience minimums and subsidising the wages, rather than the air operator themselves. Seems like a bloody good deal for those interested and eligible anyway.
520.
It is after all a mining company pursuing the experience minimums and subsidising the wages, rather than the air operator themselves. Seems like a bloody good deal for those interested and eligible anyway.
520.
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Multicrew ops without the appropriate operations manual and multicrew training and checklists, is trouble looking for somewhere to happen.
make sure you get that in detail before you commit and who pays to travel to the interview.
If they are serious and the mining company is driving it then they will. If they wont then you need to take a very loooong look.
Karratha is a great place but you don't need to be there on the dole.
The key word here is a 60-80k package
If they are serious and the mining company is driving it then they will. If they wont then you need to take a very loooong look.
Karratha is a great place but you don't need to be there on the dole.
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Still rackin' my brains....
Sorry Folks, gotta say, been thinkin about this now for some hours...........
I hope someone can answer my question..... what "class endorsement" is a Baron or Chieftan / Nevago First Officer? Where would I find the answers in the regulations?
The only way I can see it as a legal thingie is if all the fleet were not fitted with Autopilot, then obviously there would be a second pilot on board as a safety pilot. But I couldnt imagine a fleet of aircraft operating on a lucrative mining contract without an autopilot!
If there is no such allowance in the regs / rules for an F/O endorsement, what does the "other" pilot log in his log book, and surely he or she cant log 50% flight time of a single pilot aeroplane?
I do believe there are some aircraft around that could be flown single pilot that have now attracted a requirement for a second pilot - this was due to the number of buts on seats I understand, and may also be because they are turbine aircraft and a tad more complex than a Baron and Chieftan, Ie Cessna 208 B (again only a seat thing, can be operated single pilot but limited on the pax numbers) and I believe a King air, Metro (except M 23), and also Bandit are four that come to mind.
Feel free to answer.........
Besides, How will this look to a prospective employer after a young pilot applies to a job after F/Oing a Chieftain.........
potential CP in interview:
"well lad, whats your twin hours?"
Potential young pilot:
"well sir, I come well experienced - 1125 hours on chieftains"
Potential CP:
"whats your twin command hours?"
Potential yp
"I had 125 hours when I started with my last employer, I gained 1000 hours on the job, of which that incresaed my GRAND TOTAL AERONAUTICAL EXPERIENCE to 600 hours or so multi plus my other flying, all as co-pilot on a PA-31, so my total Multi Command STILL stands at 125 hours!!"
Sounds like a good gig to me for someone that wants to waste time in their career as a chieftan or Baron F/O!
Keep Smiling Sunshiners
I hope someone can answer my question..... what "class endorsement" is a Baron or Chieftan / Nevago First Officer? Where would I find the answers in the regulations?
The only way I can see it as a legal thingie is if all the fleet were not fitted with Autopilot, then obviously there would be a second pilot on board as a safety pilot. But I couldnt imagine a fleet of aircraft operating on a lucrative mining contract without an autopilot!
If there is no such allowance in the regs / rules for an F/O endorsement, what does the "other" pilot log in his log book, and surely he or she cant log 50% flight time of a single pilot aeroplane?
I do believe there are some aircraft around that could be flown single pilot that have now attracted a requirement for a second pilot - this was due to the number of buts on seats I understand, and may also be because they are turbine aircraft and a tad more complex than a Baron and Chieftan, Ie Cessna 208 B (again only a seat thing, can be operated single pilot but limited on the pax numbers) and I believe a King air, Metro (except M 23), and also Bandit are four that come to mind.
Feel free to answer.........
Besides, How will this look to a prospective employer after a young pilot applies to a job after F/Oing a Chieftain.........
potential CP in interview:
"well lad, whats your twin hours?"
Potential young pilot:
"well sir, I come well experienced - 1125 hours on chieftains"
Potential CP:
"whats your twin command hours?"
Potential yp
"I had 125 hours when I started with my last employer, I gained 1000 hours on the job, of which that incresaed my GRAND TOTAL AERONAUTICAL EXPERIENCE to 600 hours or so multi plus my other flying, all as co-pilot on a PA-31, so my total Multi Command STILL stands at 125 hours!!"
Sounds like a good gig to me for someone that wants to waste time in their career as a chieftan or Baron F/O!
Keep Smiling Sunshiners
Last edited by Ace on Base; 2nd Sep 2005 at 19:33.
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As a "highly" paid pilot on one of these mine sites you would be by far the LOWEST paid person on site. A haul pack driver starts on $100K, two weeks on /one week off plus six weeks annual leave. Fly in/fly out to Perth.
Mate we are in the wrong game..............
Mate we are in the wrong game..............
Ace On Base,
How are ya son? Yer old man tells me you're doing wellanda bit past the Baron stage of things!
Nonetheless:
The requirement for two-crew operations would be diven not by any legislative process but by the client mining company's internal risk assessment and management guidelines. Somebody (maybe a consultant) has told them that multi-crew operations are statistically safer than single-pilot ops so that is what they would have specified in the Request For Tender.
If you have ever dealt with a mining company I assure you that they can be thorough and demanding when it suits them and in my experience there are two sets of rules - flexible for them and absolutely hard-line black-and-white for a contractor.
I am away from my copy of the Regs BUT:
There is no co-pilot endorsement for a Chieftain of Baron so to perform flight crew duties in these aircraft - from either seat - you will have a command endorsement.
It is not the class of endorsement that matters so much as the quality of the multi-crew pocedures specified in the company operations manual and approved by CASA.
Yes, there is a requirement for two crew if the A/P is U/S but that is not active in this case. The requirement is driven either by insurance or client company policy.
You would hope that the Captains would progress very handily onto other jobs and the co-pilots would advance without too much delay - nothing worse than being stuck in the Co-pilot rut...
How are ya son? Yer old man tells me you're doing wellanda bit past the Baron stage of things!
Nonetheless:
The requirement for two-crew operations would be diven not by any legislative process but by the client mining company's internal risk assessment and management guidelines. Somebody (maybe a consultant) has told them that multi-crew operations are statistically safer than single-pilot ops so that is what they would have specified in the Request For Tender.
If you have ever dealt with a mining company I assure you that they can be thorough and demanding when it suits them and in my experience there are two sets of rules - flexible for them and absolutely hard-line black-and-white for a contractor.
I am away from my copy of the Regs BUT:
There is no co-pilot endorsement for a Chieftain of Baron so to perform flight crew duties in these aircraft - from either seat - you will have a command endorsement.
It is not the class of endorsement that matters so much as the quality of the multi-crew pocedures specified in the company operations manual and approved by CASA.
Yes, there is a requirement for two crew if the A/P is U/S but that is not active in this case. The requirement is driven either by insurance or client company policy.
You would hope that the Captains would progress very handily onto other jobs and the co-pilots would advance without too much delay - nothing worse than being stuck in the Co-pilot rut...
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Occasionally our company does two pilot ops as requested by the client using Navajo's and C310's. However the 2nd pilot isn't classified as Co-pilot, but rather as a 'Safety Pilot' and can not actually log any flight time. Maybe this is the same situation at Auswest but they're just calling it a 'co-pilot' position to sound good?
Actually not long ago I flew a guy who required two pilots for the flight due to his life insurance policy. But when we got out to the plane he insisted on sitting in the front, having the co-pilot (safety pilot) in the 2nd row which I thought was kind of strange. But I guess it was still a two pilot operation.
Actually not long ago I flew a guy who required two pilots for the flight due to his life insurance policy. But when we got out to the plane he insisted on sitting in the front, having the co-pilot (safety pilot) in the 2nd row which I thought was kind of strange. But I guess it was still a two pilot operation.
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HLB,
Yea thats right - the ol' bugga is right - besides neither of their aircraft smell like kero burners and I am having a ball anyway. my intention was not to seek employment, but just curiosity as to "how" this operator was doing this with its pilots and of course I am blown away with what the "package" is!!
Still no answers as to how the "Co-Pilot" logs his time though!!
Once apon a time when I flew a few mail runs, there was two pilots on those flights too, simply because of the sectors and duty etc, but neither could log "co-pilot", one pilot flew one day as PIC and swapped on the second day. the second pilot chucked mail bags, helped out with paperwork and entertained the pax.
Just feel that it is important for any newbee that considers applying to REALLY look into "what and how" they will be logging their "co-pilot" flight time - I would hate to see someone spend a year of their flying career doing something that wont benifit their loggable hours (not saying that the experience wouldnt be good)
just food for thought!!
Keep Smilin' Sunshiners,
Ace
A friend PM’ed me with this:
Only one pilot can be PIC.
The other person is a co-pilot, co-pilot means a pilot serving in any piloting capacity other than the pilot in command. The co-pilot time can be logged as ICUS is the operator has rostered the flight like that.
So, here it is:
CIVIL AVIATION REGULATIONS 1988
- REG 5.40 Pilot acting in command under supervision
(1) A person may fly an aircraft as pilot acting in command under supervision only if:
(a) the person holds:
(i) a commercial pilot licence or an air transport pilot licence; or
(ii) a certificate of validation that has effect as if it were a commercial pilot licence or an air transport pilot licence; and
(b) the person holds an aircraft endorsement that authorises him or her to fly the aircraft as pilot in command; and
(c) if the person proposes to carry out an activity for which a flight crew rating is required — the person holds a flight crew rating, or grade of flight crew rating, that permits him or her to carry out that activity as pilot in command of the aircraft concerned; and
(d) the person is the co-pilot of the aircraft; and
(e) the operator of the aircraft permits the person to fly the aircraft as pilot acting in command under supervision; and
(f) the pilot in command of the aircraft is appointed for the purpose by the operator of the aircraft.
Penalty: 10 penalty units.
(2) The operator of an aircraft may permit a person to fly an aircraft as pilot acting in command only if:
(a) the person holds:
(i) a commercial pilot licence, or an air transport pilot licence, that authorises him or her to fly the aircraft; or
(ii) a certificate of validation that has effect as if it were such a licence; and
(b) the person holds an endorsement that authorises him or her to fly the aircraft as pilot in command; and
(c) if the person carries out an activity for which a flight crew rating is required — the person holds a flight crew rating, or grade of flight crew rating, that permits him or her to carry out that activity as pilot in command of the aircraft concerned.
Penalty: 10 penalty units.
Next question is:
According to both A/C flight manuals, the LH seat is the command seat – so, what side is the pilot logging ICUS sitting in?
I guess becaus it is a valid process, this would be documented in the Company Ops Manual?
Yea thats right - the ol' bugga is right - besides neither of their aircraft smell like kero burners and I am having a ball anyway. my intention was not to seek employment, but just curiosity as to "how" this operator was doing this with its pilots and of course I am blown away with what the "package" is!!
Still no answers as to how the "Co-Pilot" logs his time though!!
Once apon a time when I flew a few mail runs, there was two pilots on those flights too, simply because of the sectors and duty etc, but neither could log "co-pilot", one pilot flew one day as PIC and swapped on the second day. the second pilot chucked mail bags, helped out with paperwork and entertained the pax.
Just feel that it is important for any newbee that considers applying to REALLY look into "what and how" they will be logging their "co-pilot" flight time - I would hate to see someone spend a year of their flying career doing something that wont benifit their loggable hours (not saying that the experience wouldnt be good)
just food for thought!!
Keep Smilin' Sunshiners,
Ace
A friend PM’ed me with this:
Only one pilot can be PIC.
The other person is a co-pilot, co-pilot means a pilot serving in any piloting capacity other than the pilot in command. The co-pilot time can be logged as ICUS is the operator has rostered the flight like that.
So, here it is:
CIVIL AVIATION REGULATIONS 1988
- REG 5.40 Pilot acting in command under supervision
(1) A person may fly an aircraft as pilot acting in command under supervision only if:
(a) the person holds:
(i) a commercial pilot licence or an air transport pilot licence; or
(ii) a certificate of validation that has effect as if it were a commercial pilot licence or an air transport pilot licence; and
(b) the person holds an aircraft endorsement that authorises him or her to fly the aircraft as pilot in command; and
(c) if the person proposes to carry out an activity for which a flight crew rating is required — the person holds a flight crew rating, or grade of flight crew rating, that permits him or her to carry out that activity as pilot in command of the aircraft concerned; and
(d) the person is the co-pilot of the aircraft; and
(e) the operator of the aircraft permits the person to fly the aircraft as pilot acting in command under supervision; and
(f) the pilot in command of the aircraft is appointed for the purpose by the operator of the aircraft.
Penalty: 10 penalty units.
(2) The operator of an aircraft may permit a person to fly an aircraft as pilot acting in command only if:
(a) the person holds:
(i) a commercial pilot licence, or an air transport pilot licence, that authorises him or her to fly the aircraft; or
(ii) a certificate of validation that has effect as if it were such a licence; and
(b) the person holds an endorsement that authorises him or her to fly the aircraft as pilot in command; and
(c) if the person carries out an activity for which a flight crew rating is required — the person holds a flight crew rating, or grade of flight crew rating, that permits him or her to carry out that activity as pilot in command of the aircraft concerned.
Penalty: 10 penalty units.
Next question is:
According to both A/C flight manuals, the LH seat is the command seat – so, what side is the pilot logging ICUS sitting in?
I guess becaus it is a valid process, this would be documented in the Company Ops Manual?
