ICUS with Johnston Aviation
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Australia
Age: 55
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Wouldnt you think the government would allow people to operate single engine IFR charter in an aircraft like a Cirrus where it almost has the speedy performance of a PA31 but not the payload.
If the pilot or aircraft becomes incapacitated, then its a matter of deploying the chute.
If the pilot or aircraft becomes incapacitated, then its a matter of deploying the chute.
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Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Sydney & Asia
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Engine out says : A Chieftain with a PT6 engine - the T-1040 --- this sounds like a terminator machine. Arnie the T-1000 and the female version is the TX machine. All turbines ?......
Seriously, would a twin turbine do a better job then ?
If so, anyone want to buy a twin turbine with me ?
D6
Seriously, would a twin turbine do a better job then ?
If so, anyone want to buy a twin turbine with me ?
D6
Join Date: Mar 2005
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A C208 cost what $1000000 and a PA31 $ 280000. At say 10% interest rate C208 $100000 and a PA31 $28000, a$72000 saving on the PA31. Over the average year flying of 400 hours $180 extra or 600 hours $120 an hour. Might be the same cost to run but you still have to pay the bank back unless you are a lucky person.
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sosouth
a couple of points:
Finance is not 10% more like 7% for a van. You'll find the older the equipment the higher the interest rate, so a 25+ year old PA31 will attract a significantly higher interest rate than a young aircraft (and brand newies are the cheapest by far in this respect)
and
that's why I said 1000hrs a year (for most freight aircraft this is
fairly normal).
the difference is more like $50-$60/hr, which is easily made up in the significantly cheaper DOCs of the 208.
But you are still not comparing apples with apples. The 208 is a 1200-1500kg freighter or a 14 seat aircraft, the PA31 is about an 700-850kg freighter or 10 seat aircraft, yet the van is still cheaper and more reliable to operate.
D6
here ya go
a couple of points:
Finance is not 10% more like 7% for a van. You'll find the older the equipment the higher the interest rate, so a 25+ year old PA31 will attract a significantly higher interest rate than a young aircraft (and brand newies are the cheapest by far in this respect)
and
that's why I said 1000hrs a year (for most freight aircraft this is
fairly normal).
the difference is more like $50-$60/hr, which is easily made up in the significantly cheaper DOCs of the 208.
But you are still not comparing apples with apples. The 208 is a 1200-1500kg freighter or a 14 seat aircraft, the PA31 is about an 700-850kg freighter or 10 seat aircraft, yet the van is still cheaper and more reliable to operate.
D6
here ya go
Join Date: Dec 2004
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Bushy, i think you are about double what a PT6 overhaul would really cost, unless you don't look after the engine.
I believe the F406 has pretty reasonable running costs and you can pick up a late 80's/early 90s model for under $US900K.
Don't know much about to T-1040, there is not much info/experience around on running costs.
dasjab, you'll find you can get early to mid 90's 208s quite reasonably priced. The reason financing is usually so good on a 208 is that they hols their value extremely well.
I can't say this for F406, but it does bring the price down quickly if you can't afford to buy a new one!
Bring on these baby bizjets, they will change the scene of charter (hopefully).
The PA31 is a dead and buried machine and operators who hang on to them like they are the world's greatest aircraft will get left behind as governments and other regular charter clients demand turbines and take their business elsewhere.
GA in this country seems to be scared of the potential costs of turbines. You don't get this fear in the US or europe and it works well over there.
Pax love the turbines cause they are generally quicker for them than pistons to get from A to B(except for the van), and that is why they are flying in the first place!
I believe the F406 has pretty reasonable running costs and you can pick up a late 80's/early 90s model for under $US900K.
Don't know much about to T-1040, there is not much info/experience around on running costs.
dasjab, you'll find you can get early to mid 90's 208s quite reasonably priced. The reason financing is usually so good on a 208 is that they hols their value extremely well.
I can't say this for F406, but it does bring the price down quickly if you can't afford to buy a new one!
Bring on these baby bizjets, they will change the scene of charter (hopefully).
The PA31 is a dead and buried machine and operators who hang on to them like they are the world's greatest aircraft will get left behind as governments and other regular charter clients demand turbines and take their business elsewhere.
GA in this country seems to be scared of the potential costs of turbines. You don't get this fear in the US or europe and it works well over there.
Pax love the turbines cause they are generally quicker for them than pistons to get from A to B(except for the van), and that is why they are flying in the first place!
Join Date: Apr 2002
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The caravan is a great aeroplane, and will have a long future. But let's stick to facts. I saw a pt6 overhaul (from the factory) about five years ago, and the cost was 250,000. It would be more now.
This engine had been operated by a small group of experienced pilots.
If you bought a caravan for one million dollars, there would be a reason why it was so cheap. And you would find out pretty soon.
What is the cost of a new caravan?
Utilisation certainly is necessary to keep costs down, and these aircraft are too big and costly for many areas of the outback, as the population and load factors are not there. The utilisation probably will not be either.
PC 12's only seem to be operated by government, or semi government, organisations, and I do not know of any TBM700 which is operating commercially in Australia. They have both been around for about ten years.
As a matter of interest, the worst accidents of recent times, have involved turbine powered aircraft.
They are great aircraft, but lets get realistic, and stop the sales talk.
This engine had been operated by a small group of experienced pilots.
If you bought a caravan for one million dollars, there would be a reason why it was so cheap. And you would find out pretty soon.
What is the cost of a new caravan?
Utilisation certainly is necessary to keep costs down, and these aircraft are too big and costly for many areas of the outback, as the population and load factors are not there. The utilisation probably will not be either.
PC 12's only seem to be operated by government, or semi government, organisations, and I do not know of any TBM700 which is operating commercially in Australia. They have both been around for about ten years.
As a matter of interest, the worst accidents of recent times, have involved turbine powered aircraft.
They are great aircraft, but lets get realistic, and stop the sales talk.
Join Date: Mar 2005
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Engineout
If I can get $1 million dollars at 7% with no loan over my house or real estate and just on the plane I'm leaving Westpac. It wouldn't take much for me to leave Westpac anyway!
If I move on from the PA31 what aircraft would I get to replace it? A Chieftain at $350000 does a good job. Say i want to spend $700000 what will that buy me? An old worn out metro 3.
400 Hours is what a charter plane does. Freight might do 1000 hours but thats day and night work and you wear out your aircraft for nothing. The freight companies line that they will give you this run and that if you give a better price does not hold any weight with me. I will not join the long long list of companies that have gone down flying bank bags so Frieght companies and the Banks can make more money.
Like i tell them, if its so good work buy your own plane and fly it yourself.
If I can get $1 million dollars at 7% with no loan over my house or real estate and just on the plane I'm leaving Westpac. It wouldn't take much for me to leave Westpac anyway!
If I move on from the PA31 what aircraft would I get to replace it? A Chieftain at $350000 does a good job. Say i want to spend $700000 what will that buy me? An old worn out metro 3.
400 Hours is what a charter plane does. Freight might do 1000 hours but thats day and night work and you wear out your aircraft for nothing. The freight companies line that they will give you this run and that if you give a better price does not hold any weight with me. I will not join the long long list of companies that have gone down flying bank bags so Frieght companies and the Banks can make more money.
Like i tell them, if its so good work buy your own plane and fly it yourself.
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sosouth,
I think you'll find near 1000 hrs a year is fairly normal for a freight aircraft (that was what I was talking about) and that is doing one run, not day and night. It is less than 4 hrs a day. I wouldn't call 1000hrs a year wearing out your aircraft, considering RPT aircraft do in the order of 2-3000 hrs per aircraft per year.
If you are only getting 400hrs a year, no wonder, utilisation is the key to any profitable aviation business as it greatly reduces your fixed costs. If you compare your fixed costs @ 400hrs p.a. with 1000 hr p.a., your fixed costs are a massive 60% less on 1000hrs p.a. than 400hr p.a.
There is actually contract freight work out there, unfortunately they are just few and far between.
As JetA_OK says, there are freight operators that are successful and these guys are the ones that actually do things properly. They keep their aircraft in good order, and most importantly actually employ their drivers full-time and pay the award. And because of this, their employees hang around and are not constantly looking for and out. I beleive this actually saves them a lot of money, and not trying to save $$ by simply not paying the award. It says alot.
Although I do agree with you with respect to the bank/freight forwarders being completely non-committal in terms of contracts. However it is just as much the fault of the companies undercutting the competition and making no money (eg Cirrus) and then dragging the others down with them just to stay afloat that has created this environment in the industry.
I think you'll find near 1000 hrs a year is fairly normal for a freight aircraft (that was what I was talking about) and that is doing one run, not day and night. It is less than 4 hrs a day. I wouldn't call 1000hrs a year wearing out your aircraft, considering RPT aircraft do in the order of 2-3000 hrs per aircraft per year.
If you are only getting 400hrs a year, no wonder, utilisation is the key to any profitable aviation business as it greatly reduces your fixed costs. If you compare your fixed costs @ 400hrs p.a. with 1000 hr p.a., your fixed costs are a massive 60% less on 1000hrs p.a. than 400hr p.a.
There is actually contract freight work out there, unfortunately they are just few and far between.
As JetA_OK says, there are freight operators that are successful and these guys are the ones that actually do things properly. They keep their aircraft in good order, and most importantly actually employ their drivers full-time and pay the award. And because of this, their employees hang around and are not constantly looking for and out. I beleive this actually saves them a lot of money, and not trying to save $$ by simply not paying the award. It says alot.
Although I do agree with you with respect to the bank/freight forwarders being completely non-committal in terms of contracts. However it is just as much the fault of the companies undercutting the competition and making no money (eg Cirrus) and then dragging the others down with them just to stay afloat that has created this environment in the industry.
Cruze Power has enough soft spots for EVERYONE 
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