Seneca Crash at Taupo
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News report here
Yes the Browns are top people. Terrible news.
For those wishing to let the family know that they are thinking of them, the Christian Aviation site is here
I have known these guys for a lot of years now, they are good operators who fly by the rules (before anybody starts speculating).
RIP...
Yes the Browns are top people. Terrible news.
For those wishing to let the family know that they are thinking of them, the Christian Aviation site is here
I have known these guys for a lot of years now, they are good operators who fly by the rules (before anybody starts speculating).
RIP...
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Rest in Peace SB....
You will be sorely missed. You were one of the most straight up top blokes I have ever had the chance to meet. Thanks for the chance to fly with you.
May the skies remain blue and the air calm where you are now...
C
You will be sorely missed. You were one of the most straight up top blokes I have ever had the chance to meet. Thanks for the chance to fly with you.
May the skies remain blue and the air calm where you are now...
C
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As has been said previously, this is one of the operators that do obey the rules and don't take any chances.
To the family, SB was a great pilot and man, has a lovely family and I am proud to have flown with him and DB on more than one occasion.
He will be greatly missed and along with him, has gone alot of experience and personal values that are second to none.
A truely top bloke, family man and operator.
My familys thoughts are with you all for a long time to come.
May you rest in peace
To the family, SB was a great pilot and man, has a lovely family and I am proud to have flown with him and DB on more than one occasion.
He will be greatly missed and along with him, has gone alot of experience and personal values that are second to none.
A truely top bloke, family man and operator.
My familys thoughts are with you all for a long time to come.
May you rest in peace
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Aust TV is naming the passengers as Bernie Lewis and his wife from Adelaide.
Bernie is well known in Adelaide for his company Bernie Lewis home loans . I flew Hercs in the RAAF with Bernies son Mark.
Condolences to all
Bernie Lewis
Bernie is well known in Adelaide for his company Bernie Lewis home loans . I flew Hercs in the RAAF with Bernies son Mark.
Condolences to all
Bernie Lewis
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If people insist on passengering in an aircraft operated single pilot they will eventually die, the statistics say so. And in NZ of all places where "we're happy and everything's wonderful in our own world" CAA are doing nothing to reduce the fatalities. Why do you think most US companies stipulate that their employees aren't allowed to fly on anything single pilot IFR or VFR? Sadly, it happened in the past, it's happening now and it will happen in the future. My condolences to the families.
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BITE
Well, if people eat icecream they'll eventually die as well, there's a 100% guarantee on that! 100% of breakdancers die. Every person who's ever listened to Celine Dion is either dead or will die, and for good reason.
Oh, hang on, did you mean that you've managed to interpret something, which I'm sure you can post a reference to, to mean that every passenger on a SPIFR flight will die on a SPIFR flight??????? Or is your post just there to get a reaction...
What a load of monkey nuts. Good of you to not specifically mention Christian Aviation though, they've got a pretty good reputation so far as I can tell.
Quite a stretch to say that CAA's "doing nothing", when their whole existence is purpose built to increase aviation safety. Perhaps you don't get Vector/CAA News? It's been going on (first as Flight Safety) for about 30 years... Or haven't you read the Aircraft Icing Handbook? Aren't all the rules and most of the thoughts behind them available FOC on the web? Don't you have to meet certain standards every six months? Do you suggest that more frequent checks should be mandatory? Maybe SPIFR should be ILLEGAL!!!! AAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHH run for it there's a plane in the sky with only one pilot AAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHH
Well, if people eat icecream they'll eventually die as well, there's a 100% guarantee on that! 100% of breakdancers die. Every person who's ever listened to Celine Dion is either dead or will die, and for good reason.
Oh, hang on, did you mean that you've managed to interpret something, which I'm sure you can post a reference to, to mean that every passenger on a SPIFR flight will die on a SPIFR flight??????? Or is your post just there to get a reaction...
What a load of monkey nuts. Good of you to not specifically mention Christian Aviation though, they've got a pretty good reputation so far as I can tell.
Quite a stretch to say that CAA's "doing nothing", when their whole existence is purpose built to increase aviation safety. Perhaps you don't get Vector/CAA News? It's been going on (first as Flight Safety) for about 30 years... Or haven't you read the Aircraft Icing Handbook? Aren't all the rules and most of the thoughts behind them available FOC on the web? Don't you have to meet certain standards every six months? Do you suggest that more frequent checks should be mandatory? Maybe SPIFR should be ILLEGAL!!!! AAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHH run for it there's a plane in the sky with only one pilot AAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHH
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The CAA have a very "hands off" safety culture, and it is that methodology that is largely responsible for the number of accidents.
Their view seems to be that if your manuals are up to date, you are assumed to be in "compliance". That being the case, they interfere no further. Most countries with developed aviation authorities know darn well that it takes a lot more than that to get fallible, imperfect humans to obey the rules.
In this particular case, you have to say that, no matter what the weather might be (within reason), if you stick to an approach/missed approach profile, you are completely safe. If you hit terrain, you aren't even close to the profile.
What this illustrates is that we can all make mistakes - and we all do, no matter how good a stick we might be.
I certainly hope that some mechanical or instrument problem turns out to be the cause, as I have a hard time believing that Steve Brown would wilfully break the rules.
And yes, his name was confirmed on the news a few minutes ago.
Their view seems to be that if your manuals are up to date, you are assumed to be in "compliance". That being the case, they interfere no further. Most countries with developed aviation authorities know darn well that it takes a lot more than that to get fallible, imperfect humans to obey the rules.
In this particular case, you have to say that, no matter what the weather might be (within reason), if you stick to an approach/missed approach profile, you are completely safe. If you hit terrain, you aren't even close to the profile.
What this illustrates is that we can all make mistakes - and we all do, no matter how good a stick we might be.
I certainly hope that some mechanical or instrument problem turns out to be the cause, as I have a hard time believing that Steve Brown would wilfully break the rules.
And yes, his name was confirmed on the news a few minutes ago.
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chicken6,
if you pull your head out of you arse and have a look at the statistics you will see SPIFR is a dangerous way to go, in comparison to a two crew environment. While the accident rate in NZ is substantially worse than anywhere else in the western world and remains so then surely it is the fault of the safety regulators? They determine training/standards/procedures and safety, the buck stops with them and the stats say they are hopeless. I don't give a rats arse about some glossy magazine CAA spits out, I simply want to be able to stick my kids on an aircraft and know they are as safe as anywhere else, at the moment in New Zealand, they are not.
Companies in the US have figured out long ago that you don't stick employees on SPIFR because there is no pilot monitoring, no margin for error and we all make mistakes. And they can't afford to lose employees. The autopilot on most SPIFR certified aircraft is a joke. They, the paying public, could have paid extra to stick a second qualified pilot on board, and they didn't. There was a considerably higher degree of danger involved (statistics again) and they were obviously happy to accept it.
if you pull your head out of you arse and have a look at the statistics you will see SPIFR is a dangerous way to go, in comparison to a two crew environment. While the accident rate in NZ is substantially worse than anywhere else in the western world and remains so then surely it is the fault of the safety regulators? They determine training/standards/procedures and safety, the buck stops with them and the stats say they are hopeless. I don't give a rats arse about some glossy magazine CAA spits out, I simply want to be able to stick my kids on an aircraft and know they are as safe as anywhere else, at the moment in New Zealand, they are not.
Companies in the US have figured out long ago that you don't stick employees on SPIFR because there is no pilot monitoring, no margin for error and we all make mistakes. And they can't afford to lose employees. The autopilot on most SPIFR certified aircraft is a joke. They, the paying public, could have paid extra to stick a second qualified pilot on board, and they didn't. There was a considerably higher degree of danger involved (statistics again) and they were obviously happy to accept it.
Just thinking that many accidents occur in adverse weather. NZ has more adverse weather than Australia. The NZ accident rate could be expected, therefore, to be higher. Correct?
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Not correct at all. If the weather is crap, no matter what country you might be in, you fly IFR and use the published procedures. Do that, and you won't hit anything.
The other big killers, icing and strong winds, are probably well known in Oz as well?
SPIFR is clearly less safe than having a pair of pilots on board, for many reasons. The trouble is that often the travelling public are not aware of the risk, or don't think to ask about a second pilot. It is unlikely that any charter company would offer the second pilot themselves for a private charter.
And the CAA exists solely for our safety? No. I think not.
The other big killers, icing and strong winds, are probably well known in Oz as well?
SPIFR is clearly less safe than having a pair of pilots on board, for many reasons. The trouble is that often the travelling public are not aware of the risk, or don't think to ask about a second pilot. It is unlikely that any charter company would offer the second pilot themselves for a private charter.
And the CAA exists solely for our safety? No. I think not.
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There's much more to this discussion than simply 'single pilot IFR is dangerous'. The accident rate for single pilot IFR operations undoubtedly outweighs crewed IFR aircraft by quite some margin, but lets look at the other contributing factors.
Compared to the heavies, those pilots who are operating single pilot IFR are (often) operating in light aircraft, with a less comprehensive suite of avionics, with lower experience levels, into minor airfields where the facilities are not necessarily comprehensive.
Crewing an aeroplane with more than one pilot does NOT in itself make an operation safer - just look at the amount of CRM training required to properly integrate flight deck crew. And look what can happen when CRM goes wrong.
Stillalbatross, yes you are right in that SPIFR statistics demonstrate a higher accident rate than two pilots ops. Yes, there are major advantages in having two pilots in an aeroplane. But I challenge you to think about the topic a little deeper than asserting 'fly SPIFR and die'.
My thoughts are with the pilot and passengers who were sadly killed in this accident, and I offer my sympathy to their friends and family.
Compared to the heavies, those pilots who are operating single pilot IFR are (often) operating in light aircraft, with a less comprehensive suite of avionics, with lower experience levels, into minor airfields where the facilities are not necessarily comprehensive.
Crewing an aeroplane with more than one pilot does NOT in itself make an operation safer - just look at the amount of CRM training required to properly integrate flight deck crew. And look what can happen when CRM goes wrong.
Stillalbatross, yes you are right in that SPIFR statistics demonstrate a higher accident rate than two pilots ops. Yes, there are major advantages in having two pilots in an aeroplane. But I challenge you to think about the topic a little deeper than asserting 'fly SPIFR and die'.
My thoughts are with the pilot and passengers who were sadly killed in this accident, and I offer my sympathy to their friends and family.
Last edited by Capt W E Johns; 3rd Feb 2005 at 10:38.
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Just thinking that many accidents occur in adverse weather. NZ has more adverse weather than Australia. The NZ accident rate could be expected, therefore, to be higher. Correct?
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The CAA auditing system, at 135 level at least, is crazy.
Ever since the department disposed of their Aircraft that allowed them to have a more hands-on approach to regulation (and better communication with operators), all they do is check that certain manuals detail what they expect, and the operator is safe for another year.
If everybody that drove a car on the roads, was to write a manual for the MoT, that said that "Drivers shall not exceed the designated speed limit on any section of road" we shouldn’t need police cars patrolling for speeding drivers.
When was the last time that a CAA inspector did a 'ramp' check on an operator as they were about to start the engines?
Some operators might get a quick shake up if that happened more often.
Ever since the department disposed of their Aircraft that allowed them to have a more hands-on approach to regulation (and better communication with operators), all they do is check that certain manuals detail what they expect, and the operator is safe for another year.
If everybody that drove a car on the roads, was to write a manual for the MoT, that said that "Drivers shall not exceed the designated speed limit on any section of road" we shouldn’t need police cars patrolling for speeding drivers.
When was the last time that a CAA inspector did a 'ramp' check on an operator as they were about to start the engines?
Some operators might get a quick shake up if that happened more often.
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The Seneca Steve was flying was well equiped...
And Steve was no wet behind the ears green 500 hour pilot. He was very experienced, in that sort of operation in that type of aircraft.
Christian Aviation gladly offer second pilots to clients..
Try and get your facts straight before you use this incident as a way to politically grandstand your opinions for your own self ego...
And Steve was no wet behind the ears green 500 hour pilot. He was very experienced, in that sort of operation in that type of aircraft.
Christian Aviation gladly offer second pilots to clients..
Try and get your facts straight before you use this incident as a way to politically grandstand your opinions for your own self ego...
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Stillalbatross, yes you are right in that SPIFR statistics demonstrate a higher accident rate than two pilots ops. Yes, there are major advantages in having two pilots in an aeroplane. But I challenge you to think about the topic a little deeper than asserting 'fly SPIFR and die'.
Unfortunately you don't have to go any deeper than the fact that there is no safety net below MSA on an approach SPIFR (unless you're on radar). If you picked up Prof Reasons diagram you'd see that just by setting out SPIFR in IMC with a crappy autopilot you're lining up about 3 of the holes already. You have any problems or distractions that cause you to stray on the approach and that's the remainder lined up, here comes the accident.
The Seneca Steve was flying was well equiped...
All your bashing and bitterness isn\'t going to bring back those people.
He was very experienced, in that sort of operation in that type of aircraft
Get off your high horse and accept that there is a mode of operating an aircraft that is considerably safer than SPIFR and we can clean up our act or this stuff is just going to keep on happening.
You make it sound like it\'s acceptable because he was experienced and the aircraft was well maintained. What about the concept that he shouldn\'t have been there in the first place?
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HI Cypher, just to clarify the intent behind my comments earlier: I in no way want to disparage the incident pilot, aircraft, or organisation. Quite the contrary - I want to refute the suggestion that the accident was somehow inevitable purely because it was a single pilot flight (see quote).
Clearly that's poppycock, and I've attempted to list somecausal factors involved in some single pilot IFR accidents, not all, and not necessarily this one. Sorry if I've caused offence.
If people insist on passengering in an aircraft operated single pilot they will eventually die, the statistics say so
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What an absolute disgrace, the poor guy isn't even in his grave yet and PPRuNe is already awash with people jumping to conclusions, grandstanding and using this tragedy to push their own little apple carts, anti-CAA, anti-SPIFR, anti-whatever. *Disparaging comment about general maturity levels of pilots, edited out here*.
I've never even met the man or worked for Christian, but ask anyone who operates piston twins in NZ and they will tell you the same story, the reputation of Christian is of an absolutely top notch, no expense spared, exemplary safety culture outfit whose pilots are some of the very very best in the business.
At least try to remember before you hit the post button that in this business a company's good reputation is absolutely priceless and its' livelihood rests on it. It takes many many years of good operating practice to build a rep as good as Christian's, and maybe only one uninformed idiot pontificating on a forum known to be frequented by journalists, to destroy the whole thing.
For all you clowns giving SPIFR a slating (for what it's worth I have operated extensively both SPIFR in NZ and now I'm a captain on multi-turbine airline ops in Europe) I reckon multi crew ops can indeed be a blessing when the other guy is competent, but I have on occasion found myself wishing for the relatively benign safety of my little SPIFR Seneca when I'm out and about in real weather and the FO is a newly checked to line, non-English-first-language, still learning the ropes individual who's still at the stage of making a complete balls up of the checklists and RT let alone the handling, and is basically so far behind the aircraft he needs a tow rope. Remember that multi crew aircraft are certified that way because they are deemed sufficiently fast & complex that they NEED two pilots to get the job done. If I had the choice of sending my wife and kids on an SPIFR flight with a completely reputable outfit like Christian Aviation, or on one of these more interesting European airlines that have a money making sideshow selling buy-a-type-rating-and-line-training packages to wet behind the ears CPLs, I know what I'd choose.
In any case however, NOW is not the time and place for a big bitch fight about the pro's and anti's of SPIFR. Please all of you guys show some sympathy before you carry on this slagging match, and just think what would the grieving families and friends of the deceased be thinking if they logged onto PPRuNe right now and read what you are about to post. Steve Brown at least deserves that much respect, until the accident investigation is concluded.
My deepest condolences to all those affected personally by this tragedy.
I've never even met the man or worked for Christian, but ask anyone who operates piston twins in NZ and they will tell you the same story, the reputation of Christian is of an absolutely top notch, no expense spared, exemplary safety culture outfit whose pilots are some of the very very best in the business.
At least try to remember before you hit the post button that in this business a company's good reputation is absolutely priceless and its' livelihood rests on it. It takes many many years of good operating practice to build a rep as good as Christian's, and maybe only one uninformed idiot pontificating on a forum known to be frequented by journalists, to destroy the whole thing.
For all you clowns giving SPIFR a slating (for what it's worth I have operated extensively both SPIFR in NZ and now I'm a captain on multi-turbine airline ops in Europe) I reckon multi crew ops can indeed be a blessing when the other guy is competent, but I have on occasion found myself wishing for the relatively benign safety of my little SPIFR Seneca when I'm out and about in real weather and the FO is a newly checked to line, non-English-first-language, still learning the ropes individual who's still at the stage of making a complete balls up of the checklists and RT let alone the handling, and is basically so far behind the aircraft he needs a tow rope. Remember that multi crew aircraft are certified that way because they are deemed sufficiently fast & complex that they NEED two pilots to get the job done. If I had the choice of sending my wife and kids on an SPIFR flight with a completely reputable outfit like Christian Aviation, or on one of these more interesting European airlines that have a money making sideshow selling buy-a-type-rating-and-line-training packages to wet behind the ears CPLs, I know what I'd choose.
In any case however, NOW is not the time and place for a big bitch fight about the pro's and anti's of SPIFR. Please all of you guys show some sympathy before you carry on this slagging match, and just think what would the grieving families and friends of the deceased be thinking if they logged onto PPRuNe right now and read what you are about to post. Steve Brown at least deserves that much respect, until the accident investigation is concluded.
My deepest condolences to all those affected personally by this tragedy.
Last edited by Luke SkyToddler; 3rd Feb 2005 at 14:36.