NAC and the Award - Part 3
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NAC and the Award - Part 3
For background, I refer readers to....Topic: NAC pilots threatened with sack...PART 2 - page 3 and Topic: ALL NAC pilots threatened with sack!
It is more 7 months since it became law, and more than 2 months since the last significant comment on this topic. NOTHING NEW has happened about it at NAC. Despite promises to both his staff, and major contract customers, of an EBA and award back pay; HA has DONE nothing to indicate these words are anymore than that, words.
Staff are still getting payed little to work a lot, and open to who knows what sort of liability by flying for a travel agent, who call itself an airline, own there own plane, publicly advertise a schedule, but use NAC pilots as they don’t have an AOC, chief pilot, op’s manual or any of the airline infrastructure required to operate its aircraft. Ref… Tiwi travel and freight website
The supposed EBA negotiations have been sitting in HA's court for 2 months now... and nothing!
There have been plenty of posts noting NAC’s loss of A/C and inability to pay bills... IF the company IS falling apart, it is the staff who will loose out before HA you can be sure of that.
Common' HA, you agreed on public record to an EBA and that staff would be receiving full back pay!
Are all your words meaningless and promises hollow? It's dragged on long enough, time to cough up.
JP
31st August 2004
I have received a communication from the operator... It would appear this operator’s employees have obtained an equitable and legally acceptable format of employment. This PPRuNe thread has achieved it’s objective and in all fairness, is now locked. Feel free to open a new thread, but only if the conditions being offered to existing and new employees are not in accordance with Industrial Relations law.
Woomera
I have received a communication from the operator... It would appear this operator’s employees have obtained an equitable and legally acceptable format of employment. This PPRuNe thread has achieved it’s objective and in all fairness, is now locked. Feel free to open a new thread, but only if the conditions being offered to existing and new employees are not in accordance with Industrial Relations law.
Woomera
Staff are still getting payed little to work a lot, and open to who knows what sort of liability by flying for a travel agent, who call itself an airline, own there own plane, publicly advertise a schedule, but use NAC pilots as they don’t have an AOC, chief pilot, op’s manual or any of the airline infrastructure required to operate its aircraft. Ref… Tiwi travel and freight website
The supposed EBA negotiations have been sitting in HA's court for 2 months now... and nothing!
There have been plenty of posts noting NAC’s loss of A/C and inability to pay bills... IF the company IS falling apart, it is the staff who will loose out before HA you can be sure of that.
Common' HA, you agreed on public record to an EBA and that staff would be receiving full back pay!
Are all your words meaningless and promises hollow? It's dragged on long enough, time to cough up.
JP
Looks like NAC is going down baby ....
Mate it felt bloody good peeling the NAC off the baron we got of you !
Hope all the pilots will get to see their entitlements, keep harrassing guys
DD
Mate it felt bloody good peeling the NAC off the baron we got of you !
Hope all the pilots will get to see their entitlements, keep harrassing guys
DD
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Jon.Pierre
Can you explain to me the rules that Tiwi travel and freight are breaking as I see many Airlines around that operate under an alternate AOC. There are many aircraft charter brokers around that use other operators to fly their charters. I think Big Sky Express are operated by Transjet??? I believe as long as the AOC holder is still responsible for the crews, duty times ect I cant see a problem.
Can you explain to me the rules that Tiwi travel and freight are breaking as I see many Airlines around that operate under an alternate AOC. There are many aircraft charter brokers around that use other operators to fly their charters. I think Big Sky Express are operated by Transjet??? I believe as long as the AOC holder is still responsible for the crews, duty times ect I cant see a problem.
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Dasjab,
Correct me if I’m wrong (I could be if you think so), but I cannot find any reference on the above linked web site to the fact that their RPT schedule is actually just bookings made on behalf of a third party supplier. As far as there website reads to me, TT&F is advertising a “Tiwi Travel & Freight Schedule.”
In fact in their terms and conditions the statement…
…indicates that under normal operating conditions, the company contracted by the customer to carry out the travel service is “Tiwi Island Travel and Freight,” but that they may be substituted.
On demand charter, could be but for the schedule they so publicly advertise. Flight No 007, 009, 011… Ha. Looks like an RPT airline, but certainly doesn’t act like one when the check in agent is weighing pax and freight with bathroom scales on GRASS. But it’s all fine, “J-J-J-Just Go.”
Tiwi travel and freight SHOULD be advertising that their bookings are for/on behalf of NAC, and as NEITHER COMPANY is RPT, should not be advertising a RPT schedule.
If TT&F are applying for their own AOC, then NAC shouldn’t been anywhere near them.
Correct me if I’m wrong (I could be if you think so), but I cannot find any reference on the above linked web site to the fact that their RPT schedule is actually just bookings made on behalf of a third party supplier. As far as there website reads to me, TT&F is advertising a “Tiwi Travel & Freight Schedule.”
CIVIL AVIATION REGULATIONS 1988
- REG 210
Restriction of advertising of commercial operations
(1) A person must not give a public notice, by newspaper advertisement, broadcast statement or any other means of public announcement, to the effect that a person is willing to undertake by use of an Australian aircraft any commercial operations if the last-mentioned person has not obtained an Air Operator's Certificate authorising the conduct of those operations.
Penalty: 10 penalty units.
(2) An offence against subregulation (1) is an offence of strict liability.
Note For strict liability, see section 6.1 of the Criminal Code.
- REG 210
Restriction of advertising of commercial operations
(1) A person must not give a public notice, by newspaper advertisement, broadcast statement or any other means of public announcement, to the effect that a person is willing to undertake by use of an Australian aircraft any commercial operations if the last-mentioned person has not obtained an Air Operator's Certificate authorising the conduct of those operations.
Penalty: 10 penalty units.
(2) An offence against subregulation (1) is an offence of strict liability.
Note For strict liability, see section 6.1 of the Criminal Code.
The Company may arrange with any other person, firm or corporation to undertake the carriage hereby contracted for, or service ancillary thereto (including the transportation of the passenger and baggage to or from any airport or taking off or landing place).
On demand charter, could be but for the schedule they so publicly advertise. Flight No 007, 009, 011… Ha. Looks like an RPT airline, but certainly doesn’t act like one when the check in agent is weighing pax and freight with bathroom scales on GRASS. But it’s all fine, “J-J-J-Just Go.”
CAO 82.0
3.3 Each certificate authorising charter or regular public transport operations is subject to the condition that its holder (“the AOC holder”) must not, without the prior written approval of CASA, enter into an arrangement with a person whose application for a certificate is still pending (“the other person”) under which the AOC holder agrees:
(a) to use, in any operation covered by the AOC holder’s certificate, any aircraft proposed to be covered by the certificate sought; or
(b) to use, in connection with any operation covered by the AOC holder’s certificate, any person proposed to be employed or engaged by the other person in connection with any operation proposed to be covered by the certificate sought; or
(c) to conduct any operation, or any part of an operation, proposed to be covered by the certificate sought.
3.3 Each certificate authorising charter or regular public transport operations is subject to the condition that its holder (“the AOC holder”) must not, without the prior written approval of CASA, enter into an arrangement with a person whose application for a certificate is still pending (“the other person”) under which the AOC holder agrees:
(a) to use, in any operation covered by the AOC holder’s certificate, any aircraft proposed to be covered by the certificate sought; or
(b) to use, in connection with any operation covered by the AOC holder’s certificate, any person proposed to be employed or engaged by the other person in connection with any operation proposed to be covered by the certificate sought; or
(c) to conduct any operation, or any part of an operation, proposed to be covered by the certificate sought.
If TT&F are applying for their own AOC, then NAC shouldn’t been anywhere near them.
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Thankyou JP for your response.
And thankyou for all of the material supplied from your document library. I get the opinion from your posts that you are a little more emotionally attached to this topic than myself and have taken in the points you have made.
After many years in the industry I have realised that there are many grey areas in the regulations and sometimes quoting them doesnt really solve the problems raised.
I understand that there are many "Regular Charter Flights" that are allowed to be operated in regional areas that dont get subjected to the legislation that you have quoted. Some are government tenders that are regular flights that you do not require an RPT AOC to operate. Is it possible that this run is in a similar boat???
I do however agree that TTF should have somewhere on their website "Operated by Northern Air Charter"
And thankyou for all of the material supplied from your document library. I get the opinion from your posts that you are a little more emotionally attached to this topic than myself and have taken in the points you have made.
After many years in the industry I have realised that there are many grey areas in the regulations and sometimes quoting them doesnt really solve the problems raised.
I understand that there are many "Regular Charter Flights" that are allowed to be operated in regional areas that dont get subjected to the legislation that you have quoted. Some are government tenders that are regular flights that you do not require an RPT AOC to operate. Is it possible that this run is in a similar boat???
I do however agree that TTF should have somewhere on their website "Operated by Northern Air Charter"
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Daslab,
I agree there are grey areas and loop holes. The authorities know it, don't generally like it, but accept they exist and companies work around that.
But, like someone dodging a drink driving charge, if you fragrantly and publicly waive the laws shortcomings in the authorities "face;" you bring their angry attention to everything that you do. Everyone has a skeleton in the closet, but some have the remains of a genocide.
TT&F is a side note; point of thread is that HA/NAC has done nothing to meet his promises and obligations to its staff, a money pit that keeps getting deeper. Good estimate is $500+ thousand dollars owed in back pay, and time is still passing.
If things are as fragile as they seem at NAC, perhaps the staff should be getting their claim in now and, hopefully, be near the front of the creditor queue come liquidation time.
JP.
I agree there are grey areas and loop holes. The authorities know it, don't generally like it, but accept they exist and companies work around that.
But, like someone dodging a drink driving charge, if you fragrantly and publicly waive the laws shortcomings in the authorities "face;" you bring their angry attention to everything that you do. Everyone has a skeleton in the closet, but some have the remains of a genocide.
TT&F is a side note; point of thread is that HA/NAC has done nothing to meet his promises and obligations to its staff, a money pit that keeps getting deeper. Good estimate is $500+ thousand dollars owed in back pay, and time is still passing.
If things are as fragile as they seem at NAC, perhaps the staff should be getting their claim in now and, hopefully, be near the front of the creditor queue come liquidation time.
JP.
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An operator is conducting Regular Public Transport operations if it is operating in accordance with CAR 206 (1) (c):
the purpose of transporting persons generally, or transporting cargo for persons generally, for hire or reward in accordance with fixed schedules to and from fixed terminals over specific routes with or without intermediate stopping places between terminals.
the purpose of transporting persons generally, or transporting cargo for persons generally, for hire or reward in accordance with fixed schedules to and from fixed terminals over specific routes with or without intermediate stopping places between terminals.
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I dont want to keep going on about RPT but I am still a bit confused.
1. Is a bank run considered an RPT run? (Fixed Schedules, Fixed Routes, Fixed Terminals)??
2. If the operation does not meet all of these requirements eg. does not depart at fixed times, is it RPT.
3. Can a licenced travel agent purchase charter flights of a charter operator on a regular basis and sell seats to the general public?
I have approached CASA to clarify these types of questions and have been told that I have to gain my own legal advise of what the regulations permit.
Any information would be appreciated.
Cheers
1. Is a bank run considered an RPT run? (Fixed Schedules, Fixed Routes, Fixed Terminals)??
2. If the operation does not meet all of these requirements eg. does not depart at fixed times, is it RPT.
3. Can a licenced travel agent purchase charter flights of a charter operator on a regular basis and sell seats to the general public?
I have approached CASA to clarify these types of questions and have been told that I have to gain my own legal advise of what the regulations permit.
Any information would be appreciated.
Cheers
A bank run is not RPT. Accommodation on the a/c isn't available to the general public (or their boxes). Accommodation on the a/c is only available to a limited number of entities.
That those entities in turn are entreating the public to use their services is immaterial since the public's goods could travel by any method or alternate service at the freight company's whim.
That those entities in turn are entreating the public to use their services is immaterial since the public's goods could travel by any method or alternate service at the freight company's whim.
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Tins.
It's called an "interposed entity". CASA seem reluctant to go there where freight is concerned and only goes there in selected cases where passengers are concerned. CAR 206 would not be one of CASA's more concise pieces of legislation!
I suspect Bank Running would be RPT operations via an interposed entity if one were to consider the subsequent Court findings in the October 1994 loss of Rockwell Commander 690B VH-SVQ.
("The flight was planned as a regular public transport flight from Williamtown to Lord Howe Island." and "The investigation determined that the flight was not a regular public transport flight as the company did not hold the required approval from the New South Wales Air Transport Council to operate such flights over the Williamtown to Lord Howe Island route.")
It also seems to be the way the UK international holiday market operates. Travel agency sells individual low cost tickets to a holiday destination, then charter a high capacity aircraft to perform the service. Perhaps the UK CAA has more clearly defined legislation to cover these operations?
Woomera
It's called an "interposed entity". CASA seem reluctant to go there where freight is concerned and only goes there in selected cases where passengers are concerned. CAR 206 would not be one of CASA's more concise pieces of legislation!
I suspect Bank Running would be RPT operations via an interposed entity if one were to consider the subsequent Court findings in the October 1994 loss of Rockwell Commander 690B VH-SVQ.
("The flight was planned as a regular public transport flight from Williamtown to Lord Howe Island." and "The investigation determined that the flight was not a regular public transport flight as the company did not hold the required approval from the New South Wales Air Transport Council to operate such flights over the Williamtown to Lord Howe Island route.")
It also seems to be the way the UK international holiday market operates. Travel agency sells individual low cost tickets to a holiday destination, then charter a high capacity aircraft to perform the service. Perhaps the UK CAA has more clearly defined legislation to cover these operations?
Woomera
Last edited by Woomera; 8th Nov 2004 at 21:32.
No need for RVSM
HA wouldn't need to go that high as the Tiwi Travel and freight only go to Bathurst at 2000 Amsl. 
What happened to the "other" government contracts done in the C500 ??
What happened to the "other" government contracts done in the C500 ??
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Woomera, do you seriously believe what this operater is telling you. This operator would sell his mother to the devil.
No operator is communicating with Woomeri. I was simply commenting on the confusing CAR relevent to RPT operations, and how it is variously interpreted and enforced (or not enforced) by CASA.
Woomeri do not become embroiled in PPRuNe debate.
Woomera
No operator is communicating with Woomeri. I was simply commenting on the confusing CAR relevent to RPT operations, and how it is variously interpreted and enforced (or not enforced) by CASA.
Woomeri do not become embroiled in PPRuNe debate.
Woomera
Last edited by Woomera; 9th Nov 2004 at 21:24.
WLM,
read the first post by Jon Pierre on this topic closely.
Tiwi Travel and Freight operate from a little donga next to Tenix Aviation at the airport. They don't have a terminal at BTI, which will be very interesting to see R-R-Ray weigh pax in the mud under a downpour.
J-J-Just G-G-Go you are 50 kg overweight but hey it's only bathrooms scales installed in accordance with FAA-TSO 666 (aka might just die loading system).
Cheers
DD
read the first post by Jon Pierre on this topic closely.
Tiwi Travel and Freight operate from a little donga next to Tenix Aviation at the airport. They don't have a terminal at BTI, which will be very interesting to see R-R-Ray weigh pax in the mud under a downpour.
J-J-Just G-G-Go you are 50 kg overweight but hey it's only bathrooms scales installed in accordance with FAA-TSO 666 (aka might just die loading system).
Cheers
DD
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Hang on this is news....
Is R-R-Ray operating Tiwi Travel and Freight?
Sorry if I'm a bit slow but do'nt get much news down south.
Cheers, HH.
Is R-R-Ray operating Tiwi Travel and Freight?
Sorry if I'm a bit slow but do'nt get much news down south.
Cheers, HH.
Sprucegoose
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Thanks G A Boy,
Are you still CP at Air N?
And what's Ray doing on Bathurst?
Did he marry that school teacher?
Cheers, HH.
Are you still CP at Air N?
And what's Ray doing on Bathurst?
Did he marry that school teacher?
Cheers, HH.
Yes HH. R R R R R R Ray married that teacher yes, and moved to YBTI about 18 months ago where he lives with his wife, and is the agent for Tiwi Travel and Freight amongst other things.