Nac
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Nac
Please tell me why this wont happen;
The pilots who signed on the contract fly their pants off while the EBA pilots pick up the slack, as pilots move on new pilots are interviewed and asked if they would opt for the contract or the EBA, only contract pilots are hired and within the year NAC is nothing but contract pilots organising their own insurance and super, taxes etc. Same old same old really, NAC will be able to continue treating the contractors the same, holding their jobs over them, pressuring them to do things they wouldn't normally do. The pilots will know that work will be withheld if they write in the MR or stick to their duty limits. Nothing will change unless CASA make the operators honest.
Tell me why this wont happen.
The pilots who signed on the contract fly their pants off while the EBA pilots pick up the slack, as pilots move on new pilots are interviewed and asked if they would opt for the contract or the EBA, only contract pilots are hired and within the year NAC is nothing but contract pilots organising their own insurance and super, taxes etc. Same old same old really, NAC will be able to continue treating the contractors the same, holding their jobs over them, pressuring them to do things they wouldn't normally do. The pilots will know that work will be withheld if they write in the MR or stick to their duty limits. Nothing will change unless CASA make the operators honest.
Tell me why this wont happen.
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Nothing will change unless CASA make the operators honest.
Generally speaking, they couldn't organise a root in a brothel with a shirt full of hundred dollar notes.
No one is forcing you, or anyone for that matter to apply for work or work there, so whats the problem?. Go and apply for your jet type wages your looking for, in a company that will employ and pay it for low/no timers. Don't the airlines offer contract employment?
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Whats the problem?....well wiz, customers (govt depts, tradies, locals etc) pay for a 'commercial charter" with all the associated safety that comes along with that, you know, operating under different regs etc. They dont get that. The current environment encourages/pressures/rewards pilots to fly sub standard a/c and fudge duty times etc therefore erroding that 'associated safety".
Baically, pax just have to trust that they are getting that and they aren't.
Good point about the airline having contract pilots, hardly 'apples with apples' tho. They are monitored more closely and can't breech regs like the small guys can because they are managed by teams of people rather than 'a ' person.
Fully aware nobody is forcing me to work for NAC and the advice about getting a jet job was appreciated, albeit a tad late.
Baically, pax just have to trust that they are getting that and they aren't.
Good point about the airline having contract pilots, hardly 'apples with apples' tho. They are monitored more closely and can't breech regs like the small guys can because they are managed by teams of people rather than 'a ' person.
Fully aware nobody is forcing me to work for NAC and the advice about getting a jet job was appreciated, albeit a tad late.
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".....but contract pilots organising their own insurance and super, taxes etc....."
I stand to be corrected, however it would appear impossible to legally employ a pilot under those circumstances. One assumes the AFAP have provided an assurance to all the operator's pilot employees that their terms and conditions of employment and remuneration are within Australia's legislative industrial relations framework.
And on the assumption the operator is employing and remunerating within the legal framework of the Award, an EBA or AWA, it's employees may exercise their right to decide whether they wish to work for the operator, or not.
I'm sure the operator's employees will contact me should their terms and conditions not be compliant with the AFAP and company's memo in the now locked thread.
CASA have no mandate regarding pilot employment terms and conditions, with the exception that the Chief Pilot must (in most cases) be a full time employee. It would be most inappropriate for CASA to interfere on any matter other than issues of safety.
the wizard of auz. You have a way with words! Wish I'd thought of that first! 
Woomera
I stand to be corrected, however it would appear impossible to legally employ a pilot under those circumstances. One assumes the AFAP have provided an assurance to all the operator's pilot employees that their terms and conditions of employment and remuneration are within Australia's legislative industrial relations framework.
And on the assumption the operator is employing and remunerating within the legal framework of the Award, an EBA or AWA, it's employees may exercise their right to decide whether they wish to work for the operator, or not.
I'm sure the operator's employees will contact me should their terms and conditions not be compliant with the AFAP and company's memo in the now locked thread.
CASA have no mandate regarding pilot employment terms and conditions, with the exception that the Chief Pilot must (in most cases) be a full time employee. It would be most inappropriate for CASA to interfere on any matter other than issues of safety.
the wizard of auz. You have a way with words!
Wish I'd thought of that first! Woomera
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Good onya for landing the jet job. but do you think it would have been possible with out the, bottom of the ladder philosophy?. one can't expect top of the line dollars for a new inexperianced employee, and lets face it, most of them are there to build time to move on to another stage of there career. The GM has to make a quid too (within the rules and regs of course).
I doubt he set the business up to further the careers of aspiring jet pilots. there are two sides to each story.
As for government contracts Ect, when ever I do work for the government, or mining contractors/companies, I have had to go through an auditing process, far more thorough than anything the department would put an operator through. You wouldn't eat most things if you didn't read what was on the box, you don't buy a car without looking at a brochure or inspecting the car and you dont employ someone to enter your house and clean your carpet without some type of background research by yourself.
The fact that NAS is still there is testament to the fact that they must be complying to the rules and regs to some degree, after all, they are subject to the same auditing processes as every other operater on every other field in auz, are they not?.
As for the contract, well............there would be very few GA companies out there paying better than what was offered by the GM to the employees. The news I get is that they would have been better off financially if they had of excepted........or negotiated better for themselves, an agreement, than what the AFAP has sorted.
If they didn't like what was being offered, they should have either moved on to where it was better, or negotiated with the owners for something better. the process of natural attrition would have sorted out the rest, as it usually does.
Its a nasty little circle.....pay everyone top money.........Maintain as new.....keep up with all the costs......make a small profit at the end of the year (that is after all the whole purpose of the exercise).......stay competative (like the customer base is going to hang about when joe bloggs charter is charging fifty bucks an hour less, yeah right).
This is a problem through out the whole industry, not just in DN. works excactly the same in the big companies, they just have more bucks to play with.......pricipals are they same.
It seems the only real factor in the money equation that can be manipulated with any degree is the money the pilots get. the maintanance must be done and paid for (regulations see to that), advertising has to be done, buildings need to paid for and maintianed, insurance has to be paid for (regulations again) Phones have to be paid for ect......where is all this money supposed to come from?. if your competing with other people, and want to maintain a business, you have to do what everyone else is, and pay minimum wage...sad, but true, otherwise, if you charge the real cost of aviation, your customer base will go to where its cheaper, up the road to joe bloggs aviation, who is paying all the same accounts, but pays his pilot a bit less, thus keeping the competative price of charter at a cut throat low.
I don't know the answer, and I doubt there is a fast fix, but I do think its a market problem, not a individual company problem.
but do you think it would have been possible with out the, bottom of the ladder philosophy?. one can't expect top of the line dollars for a new inexperianced employee, and lets face it, most of them are there to build time to move on to another stage of there career. The GM has to make a quid too (within the rules and regs of course).I doubt he set the business up to further the careers of aspiring jet pilots. there are two sides to each story.
As for government contracts Ect, when ever I do work for the government, or mining contractors/companies, I have had to go through an auditing process, far more thorough than anything the department would put an operator through. You wouldn't eat most things if you didn't read what was on the box, you don't buy a car without looking at a brochure or inspecting the car and you dont employ someone to enter your house and clean your carpet without some type of background research by yourself.
The fact that NAS is still there is testament to the fact that they must be complying to the rules and regs to some degree, after all, they are subject to the same auditing processes as every other operater on every other field in auz, are they not?.
As for the contract, well............there would be very few GA companies out there paying better than what was offered by the GM to the employees. The news I get is that they would have been better off financially if they had of excepted........or negotiated better for themselves, an agreement, than what the AFAP has sorted.
If they didn't like what was being offered, they should have either moved on to where it was better, or negotiated with the owners for something better. the process of natural attrition would have sorted out the rest, as it usually does.
Its a nasty little circle.....pay everyone top money.........Maintain as new.....keep up with all the costs......make a small profit at the end of the year (that is after all the whole purpose of the exercise).......stay competative (like the customer base is going to hang about when joe bloggs charter is charging fifty bucks an hour less, yeah right).
This is a problem through out the whole industry, not just in DN. works excactly the same in the big companies, they just have more bucks to play with.......pricipals are they same.
It seems the only real factor in the money equation that can be manipulated with any degree is the money the pilots get. the maintanance must be done and paid for (regulations see to that), advertising has to be done, buildings need to paid for and maintianed, insurance has to be paid for (regulations again) Phones have to be paid for ect......where is all this money supposed to come from?. if your competing with other people, and want to maintain a business, you have to do what everyone else is, and pay minimum wage...sad, but true, otherwise, if you charge the real cost of aviation, your customer base will go to where its cheaper, up the road to joe bloggs aviation, who is paying all the same accounts, but pays his pilot a bit less, thus keeping the competative price of charter at a cut throat low.
I don't know the answer, and I doubt there is a fast fix, but I do think its a market problem, not a individual company problem.
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Looks like a win for everyone (Unless you signed the contract) .
Congratulations to the Pilots that stood strong. It looks as though you have got what we all wanted you to get.
The right to Choose.
The right to negotiate.
The Right to be employed by an employer and not have to have the insecurity of being a contractor.
Congratulations to the MD of NAC.
To those who signed the contract from within NAC you must feel alot more uncomfortable now. Knowing that if you had of let what was being pursued run its course you too would feel a sense of pride.
I can not say it strongly enough. Those who signed did this for them selves and for them selves only. They had NO respect for the NAC pilots and for every other Pilot flying for a small charter operator.
Some were forced to sign when they joined, they too had a choice.
Trust me, you will be remembered. I hope you have a long list of friends in this game because you will need them. Already I've heard that other companies large and small, All airlines, want to know who signed. This must be a comforting thought especially when you try and justify to your self when you signed the dotted line that you were doing the right thing??? For your self Maybe.
I love the Atitude '' I just want my twin time and I'm out of here'' Seems you might now need to work for NAC, seeing a lot less people will be hepling you gain employment else where.
Most jobs are gained by the help or recommendations from other Pilots. The Network is Long and large.
You only have to look at all the companies that are associated with the AFAP.
This forum has achieved a lot over the last Month I think. And it's worked out well for both the MD and the NAC pilots. I'm lead to believe that the Contractors will cost the Company more do to the same work because of the commissions enforced by Best Practice Skills. The Irony. Maybe the pilots on the EBA will be more employable now they are cheaper to use.
I Don’t think calling anyone a Scab achieves anything. And I don’t believe that any one was called a scab. But this doesn’t stop me thinking that they are.
Congratulations to the Pilots that stood strong. It looks as though you have got what we all wanted you to get.
The right to Choose.
The right to negotiate.
The Right to be employed by an employer and not have to have the insecurity of being a contractor.
Congratulations to the MD of NAC.
To those who signed the contract from within NAC you must feel alot more uncomfortable now. Knowing that if you had of let what was being pursued run its course you too would feel a sense of pride.
I can not say it strongly enough. Those who signed did this for them selves and for them selves only. They had NO respect for the NAC pilots and for every other Pilot flying for a small charter operator.
Some were forced to sign when they joined, they too had a choice.
Trust me, you will be remembered. I hope you have a long list of friends in this game because you will need them. Already I've heard that other companies large and small, All airlines, want to know who signed. This must be a comforting thought especially when you try and justify to your self when you signed the dotted line that you were doing the right thing??? For your self Maybe.
I love the Atitude '' I just want my twin time and I'm out of here'' Seems you might now need to work for NAC, seeing a lot less people will be hepling you gain employment else where.
Most jobs are gained by the help or recommendations from other Pilots. The Network is Long and large.
You only have to look at all the companies that are associated with the AFAP.
This forum has achieved a lot over the last Month I think. And it's worked out well for both the MD and the NAC pilots. I'm lead to believe that the Contractors will cost the Company more do to the same work because of the commissions enforced by Best Practice Skills. The Irony. Maybe the pilots on the EBA will be more employable now they are cheaper to use.
I Don’t think calling anyone a Scab achieves anything. And I don’t believe that any one was called a scab. But this doesn’t stop me thinking that they are.
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What is the answer??
Some people are pissed off because of people signing the contract, why??? Where else are they going to get a flying job with no time??
Some people are pissed off because employees wont sign the contract and say they should get a job elsewhere, where are they going to get a job?? Sorry I forgot that there are GA job for the taking everywhere!!!!!
Why doesnt everyone work together?? If NAC are stuffing people over then they deserve what theyWILL get. If they are within there rights leave them alone.
Just my thoughts, not sure of the facts!!!!
Some people are pissed off because of people signing the contract, why??? Where else are they going to get a flying job with no time??
Some people are pissed off because employees wont sign the contract and say they should get a job elsewhere, where are they going to get a job?? Sorry I forgot that there are GA job for the taking everywhere!!!!!
Why doesnt everyone work together?? If NAC are stuffing people over then they deserve what theyWILL get. If they are within there rights leave them alone.
Just my thoughts, not sure of the facts!!!!
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News Flash
Its good to here pilots are making some headway on their issues.
But, word on the grape vine that his debt is building and his 48% is being brought out by Ozjet.
Looks like you know who might be just left with an old Marketing job or something like that.
Also operations may be moved into the old quack quacks building.
Hope and prey for all
Love Loc
Its good to here pilots are making some headway on their issues.
But, word on the grape vine that his debt is building and his 48% is being brought out by Ozjet.
Looks like you know who might be just left with an old Marketing job or something like that.
Also operations may be moved into the old quack quacks building.
Hope and prey for all
Love Loc
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This thread is pretty much chasing it's own tail and is probably getting tiresome for many but I have stated before that the insurance considerations of being a contract pilot and operating machinery owned by one bloke, subleased to another, crosshired to NAC and maintained by somebody else again is a potential nightmare. Fatal accidents are still occuring out there in GA all the time. If the C421 crash at El Questro last week was a charter flown by a contractor there will be implications. Bereaved families won't be too interested in the fine points of the contract or if the pilot was nice young lad who wanted twin time to be a jet jockey later. The lawyers for those people will however be very interested in seeing that contract and the way the various aspects of the company come together.
I suggest that you take the time to be sure that all the paperwork has the right ticks in the right boxes because if you end up in that awful situation, twin time and jet jobs will be the last thing you will be thinking about.
Gin.
I suggest that you take the time to be sure that all the paperwork has the right ticks in the right boxes because if you end up in that awful situation, twin time and jet jobs will be the last thing you will be thinking about.
Gin.
Well said Ginjockey
Pilot liability is a very serious thing to be considered, if one does have an accident.
Many moons ago I replaced a pilot who did indeed kill himself and two others. The remaining pax suffered extensive injuries and succesfully (sued?) the flying club for three million dollars.
Make no mistake this is no laughing matter.
Pilot liability is a very serious thing to be considered, if one does have an accident.
Many moons ago I replaced a pilot who did indeed kill himself and two others. The remaining pax suffered extensive injuries and succesfully (sued?) the flying club for three million dollars.
Make no mistake this is no laughing matter.
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Hornet26. Where else are they going to get a job with no time?
Where every other girl and guy in this industry got one. Hard yakka and sacrifices mate.
There ARE GA jobs for the taking everywhere at the moment mate for people with the right attitude and a bit of lateral thinking. If you don't want to move away from a capital city for your start then yeah you are going to find it tough to find a job. Its no excuse to shaft the rest of the industry.
Stars Jewel - spot on. Twin time and I'm outta here..Well guess what not that simple chaps!
What goes around comes around and you'll be surprised who you will be sitting opposite in an interview in 5 years time.
Be fair, work hard and over and above all don't shaft people so you can get ahead.
Where every other girl and guy in this industry got one. Hard yakka and sacrifices mate.
There ARE GA jobs for the taking everywhere at the moment mate for people with the right attitude and a bit of lateral thinking. If you don't want to move away from a capital city for your start then yeah you are going to find it tough to find a job. Its no excuse to shaft the rest of the industry.
Stars Jewel - spot on. Twin time and I'm outta here..Well guess what not that simple chaps!
What goes around comes around and you'll be surprised who you will be sitting opposite in an interview in 5 years time.
Be fair, work hard and over and above all don't shaft people so you can get ahead.
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Isn't the talk about contract pilots redundant? I thought that with the AWA having being negotiated that all pilots, irrespective of whether they signed the "contract" or not, would now come under that agreement.
That contract would not have survived a first round encounter with the ATO. There is no way that anyone who signed it would ever be considered a contractor which would have left a lot of people having to find money that the ATO considers theirs.
Locator
I think you are spot on the money regarding Ozjet. The whole exercise seems to have been to create a company that has work on the books but low liability. The only reason for doing that is to make it attractive for investment.
That contract would not have survived a first round encounter with the ATO. There is no way that anyone who signed it would ever be considered a contractor which would have left a lot of people having to find money that the ATO considers theirs.
Locator
I think you are spot on the money regarding Ozjet. The whole exercise seems to have been to create a company that has work on the books but low liability. The only reason for doing that is to make it attractive for investment.
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Plovett
I don\'t know about making it attractive for investment.
I\'d treat the place like a house of cards.
Fair enough it pulls in the work but the reputation that place has gotten over the last month or so is unbelievable.
It’s going down hill fast, it\'s only a matter of time before the customers catch a wif and the deck of cards will fall.
There would have to be major changes there if it’s going to be and good investment.
I\'d start with management and wipe the dirty slate clean.
Most of all PAY the Pilots!
Love Loc.
I don\'t know about making it attractive for investment.
I\'d treat the place like a house of cards.
Fair enough it pulls in the work but the reputation that place has gotten over the last month or so is unbelievable.
It’s going down hill fast, it\'s only a matter of time before the customers catch a wif and the deck of cards will fall.
There would have to be major changes there if it’s going to be and good investment.
I\'d start with management and wipe the dirty slate clean.
Most of all PAY the Pilots!
Love Loc.
Last edited by Locator; 4th Sep 2004 at 15:35.
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Nac
If conditions are s#it then why stick around . I have it on good authority that there are other operators near Darwin looking for drivers. You may not go straight to a twin but you can run up some good hours and get fair pay. look around, get on the phone.
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Isnt there plenty of companies in GA who pay under the award? Should we list all these?
Isnt there alot of pilots who accept less than award wages from these companies? Should they be blacklisted too?
This has become a very public issue but is not just isolated to one work place. Last time I was in PMQ for a renewal companies there were not paying the award either. Maybe this has changed I dont know. I hope it has.
It should not happen anywhere but unfortunately does. I dont condone it but it is common.
hf
Isnt there alot of pilots who accept less than award wages from these companies? Should they be blacklisted too?
This has become a very public issue but is not just isolated to one work place. Last time I was in PMQ for a renewal companies there were not paying the award either. Maybe this has changed I dont know. I hope it has.
It should not happen anywhere but unfortunately does. I dont condone it but it is common.
hf
