GWA's rip off cadet scheme
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Australia
Posts: 21
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The big point here is that GWA is making money off people doing an unnecessary ground school if they don't get the job.
If they are going to the trouble of interviewing and sim riding anyway, why not do that first and then make people pay for the endorsement as other companies do. That way they get what they want and still have the candidate paying for his/her own training. Under this current scheme, those who do the groundschool and don't get jobs (going by what vee tail says - 4 people) are making a charitable donation of $3000 total to GWA and getting very little out of it. Once they have done the course they have no useful qualification to show for it. It is not like you could go to another company who has B1900s and say, " hire me because I already have a groundschool qualification". They would want you to do their own course.
Complete and utter revenue raising move by GWA.
If they are going to the trouble of interviewing and sim riding anyway, why not do that first and then make people pay for the endorsement as other companies do. That way they get what they want and still have the candidate paying for his/her own training. Under this current scheme, those who do the groundschool and don't get jobs (going by what vee tail says - 4 people) are making a charitable donation of $3000 total to GWA and getting very little out of it. Once they have done the course they have no useful qualification to show for it. It is not like you could go to another company who has B1900s and say, " hire me because I already have a groundschool qualification". They would want you to do their own course.
Complete and utter revenue raising move by GWA.
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Big Island
Posts: 76
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If GWA wants to save money why don't they hire guys with time on type, I know a guy with 4800 hrs on the 1900 who applied for a captain position and got turn down............
It's ridicalous that these practices still occur in aviation, maybe the government should do something about it.
It's ridicalous that these practices still occur in aviation, maybe the government should do something about it.
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Australia
Posts: 22
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You guys all sound like your past the stage where you have to pay for an endorsement. What about the little guys who have been offered the ground school with Great Western. Should they fork out the cash and do it or tell them to get f****d like some have suggested.
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: brisbane, australia
Posts: 219
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
personally, i don't think any of these companies are doing any differently to just about every flying school in australia.
ie. training people for a spot they may not get.
then again, how many flying schools can offer somethiong like 50% chance at a reasonable job?
ie. training people for a spot they may not get.
then again, how many flying schools can offer somethiong like 50% chance at a reasonable job?
Don Quixote Impersonator
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: Australia
Age: 77
Posts: 3,403
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If it is as described, you know the industry is well on the road to perdition, when charter companies have to fund their bottom line with such shenanigans.
It is immoral, UnChristian, uncharitable, etc. etc, blah, blah, and the sort of scam regularly exposed on ACA, Springer et al.
Bit like the, "you should be a model, for $3,000 I'll do a photo portfolio for you that'll get you onto the worlds catwalks"
And yep the "least likely to" fall for it almost everytime.
Unfortunately it's not big enough to grab public attention, but it might be something that Consumer Affairs or Fair Trading might find interesting.
I have absolutely no probs advertising ratings on a pays your money you take your chances.
However, cycling new graduates through the RHS does not sound like the sort of work practise that would get my tick for "professional duty of care".
It is immoral, UnChristian, uncharitable, etc. etc, blah, blah, and the sort of scam regularly exposed on ACA, Springer et al.
Bit like the, "you should be a model, for $3,000 I'll do a photo portfolio for you that'll get you onto the worlds catwalks"
And yep the "least likely to" fall for it almost everytime.Unfortunately it's not big enough to grab public attention, but it might be something that Consumer Affairs or Fair Trading might find interesting.
I have absolutely no probs advertising ratings on a pays your money you take your chances.
However, cycling new graduates through the RHS does not sound like the sort of work practise that would get my tick for "professional duty of care".
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: The Pub
Posts: 22
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
However, cycling new graduates through the RHS does not sound like the sort of work practise that would get my tick for "professional duty of care".
As for the rest of the dribble in your post... is a company in the wrong for getting a pool of pilots for 'hold' for future positions? Is this NOT what Qantas and other companies do? Pay for your own testing then wait for a yes/no with no reasoning given for a no... Its not just the little companies taking advantage of the fact most pilots will give there left nut for a shot at turbine RPT flying.
Good luck with consumer affairs and fair trading... it'll take them a while to get through the 100's of companies already playing a similar game.
After spending upwards of 50K on getting to an employable stage in this industry, why not spend another 7K on your first type rating that will see you doing plenty of flying and get you some valuable experience prior to moving to bigger and better things...
Come on everybody lets think about this one.. if all the operators around the country advertised their scheme (which are similiar to skippers, GWA, Flying school around australia etc) we could fill up an aviators guide to supporting the industry we most love..... The sacrificial lamb.. 2nd, 3rd, 4th... 100th edition.... 200 pages of aviation prospects.
Unfortunalty its a fact of life that without these people the bottom line may fall out $%% of some of these companies. Whether this leads to better or worse jobs... well i'll leave that one up to you. Were never going to get rid of things like this... dont we all spend $50K on a gamble to get a job? I know plenty who have and haven't even been given a start. I guess some people want it more then others and the lengths that people goto to get them are large and varied but in the end very little difference exists.
Admittedly spending the money on the chance you might be selected for a job is a big on the high side of arrogance on part of the operators but I already know people who have applied for it........... everyone is entitled to do what they think will excel their career.
Unfortunalty its a fact of life that without these people the bottom line may fall out $%% of some of these companies. Whether this leads to better or worse jobs... well i'll leave that one up to you. Were never going to get rid of things like this... dont we all spend $50K on a gamble to get a job? I know plenty who have and haven't even been given a start. I guess some people want it more then others and the lengths that people goto to get them are large and varied but in the end very little difference exists.
Admittedly spending the money on the chance you might be selected for a job is a big on the high side of arrogance on part of the operators but I already know people who have applied for it........... everyone is entitled to do what they think will excel their career.
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: anywhere the job offer is!
Posts: 256
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
As of next year I believe that FO endorsements will not be recognised, is this true?
Why buy a co pilot endorsement if you have to upgrade it later at an extra expense. IF you are going to do the GWA scheme insist on a command rating, atleast that way if you don't get a job you're more employable than someone with an fo endorsement.
Why buy a co pilot endorsement if you have to upgrade it later at an extra expense. IF you are going to do the GWA scheme insist on a command rating, atleast that way if you don't get a job you're more employable than someone with an fo endorsement.
I am not familiar with GWA but as its not mentioned so far -
Is there anybody in GWA qualified and approved by CASA to conduct the ground school?
Just a thought.
Is there anybody in GWA qualified and approved by CASA to conduct the ground school?
Just a thought.
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Australia
Posts: 2,382
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Unfortunately people- and I know people are going to jump down my throat - but I gotta say it.
No Unions- crap conditions and its going to get worse and worse.
People working their arses off for nothing and no job security.
People are going to bag me sure, but hey just have a look at the score guys..we are really losing here. Thats with no unity.
I've said this before also - student numbers need to be capped. There is a massive oversupply of pilots in this country. Employers are just going to do the best for themselves and why not - they are in buisness to stay in buisness and hopefully make a profit. In this industry thats really hard for them - there just ain't that much money in it so yeah they resort to this stuff. Survival of the fittest. they are not in it for the fun of it.
But hey thats all cool cause kiddies keep handing over the 40k, companies pass some of that on in tax and the government just keeps cashing in. Why do characters like HA and co get away with it? Its in the governemnts interest. Do you think if you owed Centerlink $100 dollars that they'd shrug it off as easily as they shrug off the knowledge of all the pilots getting paid $15000 a year in GA - good luck.
No point in getting angry at companies, get angry with the government, get angry with the fact that we have no unity and thus we get screwed.
Rant over.
No Unions- crap conditions and its going to get worse and worse.
People working their arses off for nothing and no job security.
People are going to bag me sure, but hey just have a look at the score guys..we are really losing here. Thats with no unity.
I've said this before also - student numbers need to be capped. There is a massive oversupply of pilots in this country. Employers are just going to do the best for themselves and why not - they are in buisness to stay in buisness and hopefully make a profit. In this industry thats really hard for them - there just ain't that much money in it so yeah they resort to this stuff. Survival of the fittest. they are not in it for the fun of it.
But hey thats all cool cause kiddies keep handing over the 40k, companies pass some of that on in tax and the government just keeps cashing in. Why do characters like HA and co get away with it? Its in the governemnts interest. Do you think if you owed Centerlink $100 dollars that they'd shrug it off as easily as they shrug off the knowledge of all the pilots getting paid $15000 a year in GA - good luck.
No point in getting angry at companies, get angry with the government, get angry with the fact that we have no unity and thus we get screwed.
Rant over.
Guest
Posts: n/a
Just out of interest, do GWA operate RPT routes or just charter?
Do the people who use GWA for their transport needs know that GWA is involved in this training, where one of the pilots is crewing the flight as a student selected on the criteria to pay rather than on personal attributes?
Do the people who use GWA for their transport needs know that GWA is involved in this training, where one of the pilots is crewing the flight as a student selected on the criteria to pay rather than on personal attributes?
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Here today, gone tommorrow
Posts: 157
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ralph said
Can I re phrase,
Just out of interest, do (Insert Virgin, Jetstar, Pelair) operate RPT routes or just charter?
Do the people who use (Insert Virgin, Jetstar, Pelair) for their transport needs know that (Insert Virgin, Jetstar, Pelair) is involved in this training, where one of the pilots is crewing the flight as a student selected on the criteria to pay rather than on personal attributes?
Ability to pay, do you mean personally or some benefactor. I would suggest that there would be very few pilots in Oz if they did not have the ability to pay for their training.
Get real Ralph, are you suggesting that it is inappropriate to conduct training on the line, after all (CASA approved) pre line training aspects have been covered.
Just out of interest, do GWA operate RPT routes or just charter? Do the people who use GWA for their transport needs know that GWA is involved in this training, where one of the pilots is crewing the flight as a student selected on the criteria to pay rather than on personal attributes?
Can I re phrase,
Just out of interest, do (Insert Virgin, Jetstar, Pelair) operate RPT routes or just charter?
Do the people who use (Insert Virgin, Jetstar, Pelair) for their transport needs know that (Insert Virgin, Jetstar, Pelair) is involved in this training, where one of the pilots is crewing the flight as a student selected on the criteria to pay rather than on personal attributes?
Ability to pay, do you mean personally or some benefactor. I would suggest that there would be very few pilots in Oz if they did not have the ability to pay for their training.
Get real Ralph, are you suggesting that it is inappropriate to conduct training on the line, after all (CASA approved) pre line training aspects have been covered.
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Perth, Western Australia
Posts: 6
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well said Marauder...
I mean, you have the choice really. You can either buzz around in a B58 or C310 etc, or you can take a chance and fast track things by purchasing atleast some multi-crew/ multi engine turbine experience. No garrentees, but you would have been pretty silly to take on aviation as a carreer and expected any! I have considered the GWA option, have 2000+ but never carried a paying passenger. Wouldn't consider myself a loser! The majority of those hours has demanded extremely high concentration, not monitering an auto-pilot! I cleaned toilets offshore to get the money to pay for a GWA or VB ground school/ endorsement, when and if I choose to.
My point is, they are offering an opportunity to those who want to grab it. Money making? Maybe. But that is business!
So, the choice is yours.
That is a fair comment Mr. Hat.
Just one thing... how do you select which students to cap? I mean some of us have taken up aviation for reasons other than just eppaulettes and an airline job. Some people actually take it up because they are so passionate about it, whether they fly a microlight or a 747. The flying itself is more important than the vehicle that allows it, to a true aviator. Capping numbers for a commercial syllabus? Perhaps? Rather you come up with the selection process than me.
Maybe, airlines should just employ ex-airforce (sorry about the sarcasim). Indeed a tough problem.
I mean, you have the choice really. You can either buzz around in a B58 or C310 etc, or you can take a chance and fast track things by purchasing atleast some multi-crew/ multi engine turbine experience. No garrentees, but you would have been pretty silly to take on aviation as a carreer and expected any! I have considered the GWA option, have 2000+ but never carried a paying passenger. Wouldn't consider myself a loser! The majority of those hours has demanded extremely high concentration, not monitering an auto-pilot! I cleaned toilets offshore to get the money to pay for a GWA or VB ground school/ endorsement, when and if I choose to.
My point is, they are offering an opportunity to those who want to grab it. Money making? Maybe. But that is business!
So, the choice is yours.
That is a fair comment Mr. Hat.
Just one thing... how do you select which students to cap? I mean some of us have taken up aviation for reasons other than just eppaulettes and an airline job. Some people actually take it up because they are so passionate about it, whether they fly a microlight or a 747. The flying itself is more important than the vehicle that allows it, to a true aviator. Capping numbers for a commercial syllabus? Perhaps? Rather you come up with the selection process than me.
Maybe, airlines should just employ ex-airforce (sorry about the sarcasim). Indeed a tough problem.
Do the people who use (Insert Virgin, Jetstar, Pelair) for their transport needs know that (Insert Virgin, Jetstar, Pelair) is involved in this training, where one of the pilots is crewing the flight as a student selected on the criteria to pay rather than on personal attributes?
Read carefully: VB FOs do not commence employment until they have a command endorsement on the B737.
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Australia
Posts: 2,382
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Gone troppo. Just out of interest how did you clock so many hours with no fare paying pax?
How to cap with out penalising chaps like yourself? Perhaps a cap based on commercial flying activity. Its a hard question.
In Britain i think they use aptitude tests to start off with. I'm not saying the should be super super hard just saying to cut some fat off. Have you seen how many students those sausage factories pump out? Its ridiculous and it makes it harder for the bloke who is trying to make a living out of flying and who hasn't taken it up cause it looks cool or might improve your chances at pulling roots.
Cap the numbers and see what happens. Make it harder and see who sticks with it.
My thoughts.
How to cap with out penalising chaps like yourself? Perhaps a cap based on commercial flying activity. Its a hard question.
In Britain i think they use aptitude tests to start off with. I'm not saying the should be super super hard just saying to cut some fat off. Have you seen how many students those sausage factories pump out? Its ridiculous and it makes it harder for the bloke who is trying to make a living out of flying and who hasn't taken it up cause it looks cool or might improve your chances at pulling roots.
Cap the numbers and see what happens. Make it harder and see who sticks with it.
My thoughts.
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Perth, Western Australia
Posts: 6
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Mr. Hat
Easy...Low-level Air work... And that includes twin work. Have just resigned and moving into higher level air work and trying get those ATPL's done.
Your reply was fair...
I heard a young (17 or 18?) fellow at a supermarket checkout say to his customers that he was going to be a pilot (with his chest out) because that was where the money is! HAHAHA
Plenty of them out there... well, I didn't have the heart to ask him what money... and has really considered his true motivation for taking to the sky!
Cheers
Take it easy
Easy...Low-level Air work... And that includes twin work. Have just resigned and moving into higher level air work and trying get those ATPL's done.
Your reply was fair...
I heard a young (17 or 18?) fellow at a supermarket checkout say to his customers that he was going to be a pilot (with his chest out) because that was where the money is! HAHAHA
Plenty of them out there... well, I didn't have the heart to ask him what money... and has really considered his true motivation for taking to the sky!
Cheers
Take it easy
Guest
Posts: n/a
Regarding paying for a rating on type. A pilot from Fiji recently obtained a B737 type rating in Australia and had been threatened by the powerful Air Pacific Pilot's Union in Fiji that if he bought the rating they would ensure he would never get a job in Fiji. It's called living in the dark ages. He had the courage to go ahead and do his own thing.
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: posts: 666
Posts: 165
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
anyone heard of GWA??
By the way, *** (a certain blood-sucking loser RPT operation in WA) I hereby inform you that you SUCK.
I wonder if one of the trainers is BM... not the BM of '89 infamy but another with same name and of dunderhead-edness fame?? Now that would be funny... but would not change the fact that *** and their slimy money-grubbing practices SUCK big style.
No one at YPPH has the least respect for your crap little airline.
I wonder if one of the trainers is BM... not the BM of '89 infamy but another with same name and of dunderhead-edness fame?? Now that would be funny... but would not change the fact that *** and their slimy money-grubbing practices SUCK big style.
No one at YPPH has the least respect for your crap little airline.
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Australia
Posts: 126
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Its so great the way a device like PPrune enables people to say what they want under the security blanket of anonymity.
While we're at it I just want to say to John Jenkens from High School that I told you Id make it and all those wedgies on sports day just proves what a 'looser' you are!!!
10 Years and Ive finally got that off my chest!
Thankyou Prune!
Tag
While we're at it I just want to say to John Jenkens from High School that I told you Id make it and all those wedgies on sports day just proves what a 'looser' you are!!!
10 Years and Ive finally got that off my chest!
Thankyou Prune!
Tag
Last edited by Tagneah; 18th Sep 2004 at 22:42.