Question for Instructors.
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Question for Instructors.
I'm currently studying the instructors rating and am not particularly happy with how things are going. I started in late April and to date have completed the mass and pre-flight briefs but done only 14 hours of the flying. I received minimal guidance, direction or assistance with the briefs, so much so that I could have just as well done them before quitting my full time (read "paid") job. The CFI insisted on completing all the briefs before setting foot near the aircraft, which seemed odd but who am I to argue so I complied. Now that the briefs have been completed / presented and accepted by the CFI and other grade 1's, I'd like to get underway with the flying but it's dragging out like you wouldn't believe. I've been on a roster since I first started, so I have been at the school 9-5 most days answering the phone, handling queries, writing quotes, washing aircraft, vaccuuming, cleaning, washing up and every other domestic endorsement you could think of, so I'm around all the time, but I just about have to shoe horn an instructor into the aircraft simply to go flying. For this priviledge I pay over $200 per hour. I'm not paid for the domestic, phone answering general dogsbody stuff, but I have been told I'll be paid $35 / hr for the few scenic's I've done (5 or so over the last 3 months). I dragged my long suffering girlfriend over here from overseas, and she'd much rather be living in Sydney or Melbourne where she could actually get a job relevant to the career she studies two degrees for instead of counting beekeeper applications. She's happy enough to make the sacrifice if I'm getting something out of it, but that doesn't seem to be coming along too well either.
I'm happy enough to be around the airport all day, and I'm happy enough to answer phone calls and busy myself with whatever needs doing when I have spare time between my training. It's the "my training" bit that's lacking. I'm also becoming increasingly uncomfortable with what happens when I get my rating. I've been told there's a job available at the end, but possibly because of the general behaviour around the school, there are very few students. We had a whole weekend the other week with one booking. We have CAVOK days with no flights. A mature age PPL student came in the other day and I asked him how he was going and what stage he was up to. He replied "how would I know - no-one tells me anything around here". I'm not sure if he was joking - it's didn't seem very funny and no-one laughed so who knows maybe I'm being melodramatic. Either way, I'd much rather "great thanks, Roger Wilco tells me I should be OK for solo next week!". You don't need a degree in PMI to see that if you're students are saying or even joking that kind of stuff there's a problem.
Anyway, I guess the big question is "is this sort of treatment normal"? Is this just some period we all go through, something the sadist GA overlords cast down upon us to ensure we are forever grateful for not having to clean toilets anymore / as often? Should I just keep on my best smile and eventually all will be OK"? Or, should I get the hell out of here before I spend all my money for the priviledge of a job with a ordinary school or worse still looking for a job with the monkey of a bad school instructor rating on my back.
My decision to do the rating here in the first place wasn't without basis. This school used to be pretty good; I just guess things change. Like the lonely planet guides always say; good places can go bad, and bad ones can go broke.
I'm happy enough to be around the airport all day, and I'm happy enough to answer phone calls and busy myself with whatever needs doing when I have spare time between my training. It's the "my training" bit that's lacking. I'm also becoming increasingly uncomfortable with what happens when I get my rating. I've been told there's a job available at the end, but possibly because of the general behaviour around the school, there are very few students. We had a whole weekend the other week with one booking. We have CAVOK days with no flights. A mature age PPL student came in the other day and I asked him how he was going and what stage he was up to. He replied "how would I know - no-one tells me anything around here". I'm not sure if he was joking - it's didn't seem very funny and no-one laughed so who knows maybe I'm being melodramatic. Either way, I'd much rather "great thanks, Roger Wilco tells me I should be OK for solo next week!". You don't need a degree in PMI to see that if you're students are saying or even joking that kind of stuff there's a problem.
Anyway, I guess the big question is "is this sort of treatment normal"? Is this just some period we all go through, something the sadist GA overlords cast down upon us to ensure we are forever grateful for not having to clean toilets anymore / as often? Should I just keep on my best smile and eventually all will be OK"? Or, should I get the hell out of here before I spend all my money for the priviledge of a job with a ordinary school or worse still looking for a job with the monkey of a bad school instructor rating on my back.
My decision to do the rating here in the first place wasn't without basis. This school used to be pretty good; I just guess things change. Like the lonely planet guides always say; good places can go bad, and bad ones can go broke.
Join Date: Dec 2001
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you realise you are the paying customer in this situation?
the similarities in your story compared to my own experience is quite extraordinary.
i ended up hanging around for 8 months trying to finish my rating which i sadly never completed.
i knew something was wrong after 4-5 weeks but pushed on because of the promise of work on completion ... big mistake.
the similarities in your story compared to my own experience is quite extraordinary.
i ended up hanging around for 8 months trying to finish my rating which i sadly never completed.
i knew something was wrong after 4-5 weeks but pushed on because of the promise of work on completion ... big mistake.
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It sounds like you are at a 'couldn't care less' school.
With my instructor students, I give them the briefing(s) aplliciable, they brief me back,(and each other) then we go flying.
I then roleplay the sudent pilot(thats fun especially doing the 'student from hell')
After arriving back, we debrief, and also cover things you can expect a student to do. I also let the more advanced candidates brief 'real'students(in my presence)
This plus theory lessons, ( Principles of flight etc) must be well balanced and interesting.
Find yourself an instructor who enjoys teaching, and model yourself on him. Role models can be found, just ask around.
Good luck.
With my instructor students, I give them the briefing(s) aplliciable, they brief me back,(and each other) then we go flying.
I then roleplay the sudent pilot(thats fun especially doing the 'student from hell')
After arriving back, we debrief, and also cover things you can expect a student to do. I also let the more advanced candidates brief 'real'students(in my presence)
This plus theory lessons, ( Principles of flight etc) must be well balanced and interesting.
Find yourself an instructor who enjoys teaching, and model yourself on him. Role models can be found, just ask around.
Good luck.
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An interesting post Aerobat150.
"Is this sort of treatment normal?" Unfortunately, I would have to say that it is all too normal in GA.
From the length of your post I can see that there are a variety of conflicting issues that you have in regards to making your decisions.
There are some clear facts that you have stated that are worth considering:
a) You haven't yet been paid for the scenics that you have done over the last three months
b) Right now, you are working for a company that is not paying you.
c) There are very few students (or weekend PPLs), although you cannot seem to get a Grade 1 instructor/CFI to do a flight
d) You are seriously questioning the school and it's service and reputation
e) You are in a location that you do not want to be, in terms of your girlfriends employment which may be an important factor regarding your combined future income and perhaps the health of the relationship itself.
Here are some other facts that you may want to consider:
a) Students come and go from flying schools. Sometimes business is good, sometimes it is not. Sometimes a school is hot, sometimes it is not.
b) As lonelyplanet says "good places can go bad, and bad ones can go broke" but they forgot about GA in Australia...here good companies can go broke and bad ones can rip off and piss off many students, clients and employees before they go broke.
c) There are many more flying schools, charter companies and employers in Australia...there are always other possibilities - when your tolerance level is exceeded, it is time to move on.
d) From what you are saying you seem to be a hard-working, dedicated individual who is making a lot of sacrifices. You are going to have to make a lot more sacrifices in your career- if you are getting jaded now, perhaps that it is time to find somewhere new before your impressions of the place get worse. A fresh start can work wonders.
e) Be cautious about anybody who is treating badly. There are excuses for cancelling flights and rearranging schedules but there are no excuses for taking you or your money for granted. Good service starts with good service to customers, particularly customers late in their training like you. Effects of controls students come and go, but Instructor Rating students are backing the organisation with their time and money.
I assume that from what you are saying, this is a flying school with a fair charter aspect to it. Can you move onto twin-engine aircraft with this operator or not?
There are few possible options that you could take:
a) Cut your losses, quit completely - head to Melbourne or Sydney where your other half will be happy, you can finish your rating at a reputable school (even if it means giving some breifs again) and a school with a high turn over of students may give you good employment options.
b) Stop 'working' for them and keep hassling to do the flying and see what their (the CFI's) response is and how you are treated(sometimes your percieved response can be different to the actual response you get). This choice may solve the problem one way or the other. You could put all this diplomatically ie I need to take a part time paid job somewhere and do the flying part time for the time being? Or you could be upfront - Hey listen, I am paying a lot of money here and I am not gaurenteed a full time job. Has the CFI gaurenteed to employ you and now he/she is getting nervous because there is not enough work for you?
c) Stay with the operation through thick and thin until you've exhausted all avenues...and then try again. Shut up and get the job done. At the same time be assertive and proactive- Find out why you cannot seem to get your flying done. Is there anyway that you can take over some of the scheduling of the instructors or aircraft? Can you make your grievences clear to the CFI in a diplomatic way with the assurance that you are with him/her?
I hope that this helps as a generic answer to more than just you, PM me if you want to have a long discussion.
LH
"Is this sort of treatment normal?" Unfortunately, I would have to say that it is all too normal in GA.
From the length of your post I can see that there are a variety of conflicting issues that you have in regards to making your decisions.
There are some clear facts that you have stated that are worth considering:
a) You haven't yet been paid for the scenics that you have done over the last three months
b) Right now, you are working for a company that is not paying you.
c) There are very few students (or weekend PPLs), although you cannot seem to get a Grade 1 instructor/CFI to do a flight
d) You are seriously questioning the school and it's service and reputation
e) You are in a location that you do not want to be, in terms of your girlfriends employment which may be an important factor regarding your combined future income and perhaps the health of the relationship itself.
Here are some other facts that you may want to consider:
a) Students come and go from flying schools. Sometimes business is good, sometimes it is not. Sometimes a school is hot, sometimes it is not.
b) As lonelyplanet says "good places can go bad, and bad ones can go broke" but they forgot about GA in Australia...here good companies can go broke and bad ones can rip off and piss off many students, clients and employees before they go broke.
c) There are many more flying schools, charter companies and employers in Australia...there are always other possibilities - when your tolerance level is exceeded, it is time to move on.
d) From what you are saying you seem to be a hard-working, dedicated individual who is making a lot of sacrifices. You are going to have to make a lot more sacrifices in your career- if you are getting jaded now, perhaps that it is time to find somewhere new before your impressions of the place get worse. A fresh start can work wonders.
e) Be cautious about anybody who is treating badly. There are excuses for cancelling flights and rearranging schedules but there are no excuses for taking you or your money for granted. Good service starts with good service to customers, particularly customers late in their training like you. Effects of controls students come and go, but Instructor Rating students are backing the organisation with their time and money.
I assume that from what you are saying, this is a flying school with a fair charter aspect to it. Can you move onto twin-engine aircraft with this operator or not?
There are few possible options that you could take:
a) Cut your losses, quit completely - head to Melbourne or Sydney where your other half will be happy, you can finish your rating at a reputable school (even if it means giving some breifs again) and a school with a high turn over of students may give you good employment options.
b) Stop 'working' for them and keep hassling to do the flying and see what their (the CFI's) response is and how you are treated(sometimes your percieved response can be different to the actual response you get). This choice may solve the problem one way or the other. You could put all this diplomatically ie I need to take a part time paid job somewhere and do the flying part time for the time being? Or you could be upfront - Hey listen, I am paying a lot of money here and I am not gaurenteed a full time job. Has the CFI gaurenteed to employ you and now he/she is getting nervous because there is not enough work for you?
c) Stay with the operation through thick and thin until you've exhausted all avenues...and then try again. Shut up and get the job done. At the same time be assertive and proactive- Find out why you cannot seem to get your flying done. Is there anyway that you can take over some of the scheduling of the instructors or aircraft? Can you make your grievences clear to the CFI in a diplomatic way with the assurance that you are with him/her?
I hope that this helps as a generic answer to more than just you, PM me if you want to have a long discussion.
LH
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I'll bet a million bucks I can guess what school you're at
PM me mate, I had the same experience you're having at the start of my FIR before bailing after two weeks and going elsewhere...luckily I knew what the standard was after coming from an excellent training institution and knew things weren't right (along with advice on the place from other people)...I've subsequently had experience at another 4 flight schools so can give you a bit of info.
Cheers
PM me mate, I had the same experience you're having at the start of my FIR before bailing after two weeks and going elsewhere...luckily I knew what the standard was after coming from an excellent training institution and knew things weren't right (along with advice on the place from other people)...I've subsequently had experience at another 4 flight schools so can give you a bit of info.
Cheers
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You are the customer. Your rating should be complete by now, and you ought to be earning an income from it.
150 aerobat, I have 4 words for you: Department Of Fair Trading.
You are being ripped off, and quite severely at that!
I would be getting in touch with them at your earliest convenience.
Why are you doing what appears to be unpaid work? Did you come down in the last rain shower?
No wonder General Aviation is going to the pack! You only have yourselves to blame.......
150 aerobat, I have 4 words for you: Department Of Fair Trading.
You are being ripped off, and quite severely at that!
I would be getting in touch with them at your earliest convenience.
Why are you doing what appears to be unpaid work? Did you come down in the last rain shower?
No wonder General Aviation is going to the pack! You only have yourselves to blame.......
150Aerobat,
don't believe for a second that they will give you a job at the end - it'd be an offer to hang around and you gt paid for each student YOU get.
Take your money, find a school (smaller the better I think) - the best would be one that the CFI actually does the training!
Your girlfriend will be happier and you will have the satisfaction of NOT giving these gooses any more $ !!
My rating (a group of 4) was completed in 8 weeks - you should expect something similar. Good luck.
don't believe for a second that they will give you a job at the end - it'd be an offer to hang around and you gt paid for each student YOU get.
Take your money, find a school (smaller the better I think) - the best would be one that the CFI actually does the training!
Your girlfriend will be happier and you will have the satisfaction of NOT giving these gooses any more $ !!
My rating (a group of 4) was completed in 8 weeks - you should expect something similar. Good luck.
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Like the others said, the full time course should take 8 to 10 weeks to complete. Briefings presented to you by the instructor should have been followed by the practical demos inflight, same afternoon or next day. Washing a/c and secretarial work are not part of the course and are optional and are accceptable on a few occasions if you want to score some browneys with the potential employer. If you are saying that the place is not very busy, then perhaps the job prospects are also slim and should not be the sole test for staying further at that flying school. It's a sad thing that a lot of schools are happy to take ones money without providing quality service.
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Exactly what heavy-metal said. Get out of there asap and go to a reputable school where there is a good chance of (real) work at the end. One where you can actually pick up a heap of students as opposed to sitting around all day doing nothing. PM me if you are interested and I will recommend a good place where you won't be ripped off
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C150
This may not help you if you are too far down the track, but perhaps it may help others approaching your situation.
When i decided that an an instructor rating was the ideal enhancement to my bare CPl/IR with no employment prospects I considered it this way. I'm a customer with a few thousand dollars to spend on that instructor rating, so I'll spend a few hundred extra on the road finding the right instructor school. I spent a few weeks on the road travelling, asking questions and "interviewing" instructor school's to see where my money would best be spent. I was not looking for the cheapest school rather the one most likely to employ me after I'd spent the money. I took into acount demographics, city/ town size, number of schools servicing, number of curently employed instructors etc, etc, etc. At the end of my search I chose a school that was right for me at the time. My Instructor Rating was completed in six weeks and a full time instructing job was offered two days after completion. Some would say I was lucky, perhaps so. I prefer to think that a little time spent choosing wisely reaps it's rewards.
This may not help you if you are too far down the track, but perhaps it may help others approaching your situation.
When i decided that an an instructor rating was the ideal enhancement to my bare CPl/IR with no employment prospects I considered it this way. I'm a customer with a few thousand dollars to spend on that instructor rating, so I'll spend a few hundred extra on the road finding the right instructor school. I spent a few weeks on the road travelling, asking questions and "interviewing" instructor school's to see where my money would best be spent. I was not looking for the cheapest school rather the one most likely to employ me after I'd spent the money. I took into acount demographics, city/ town size, number of schools servicing, number of curently employed instructors etc, etc, etc. At the end of my search I chose a school that was right for me at the time. My Instructor Rating was completed in six weeks and a full time instructing job was offered two days after completion. Some would say I was lucky, perhaps so. I prefer to think that a little time spent choosing wisely reaps it's rewards.
Join Date: Apr 2001
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A full time Instructor course should take about 8 weeks. Around 80 - 90 hours of PMI and briefings should include some demonstrated briefings as well as some you prepared. After all that's what the PMI is for. You should make firm bookings for the whole course and if bookings are not kept, demand to know why. As many have said, YOU are the customer. But you are also a potential employee under training.
As others have said, if possible, do the training with the CFI and hopefully s/he is the ATO as well. You would not want to fail the test just because someone else skins a cat differently.
Don't be afraid to move. The school will have to transfer the records to the new school. The new school will make sure you are up to standard but you will not have to do it all again. It does not matter whether you are paying for a GFPT, PPL, CPL or Instructor Rating; you need to be comfortable with the aerodrome, the aeroplane, the operator and the instructor. If you are unsure of any one of these, you progress will be impeded.
And one last word. When you have your rating, don't visit the same sins upon you students. Best of luck.
As others have said, if possible, do the training with the CFI and hopefully s/he is the ATO as well. You would not want to fail the test just because someone else skins a cat differently.
Don't be afraid to move. The school will have to transfer the records to the new school. The new school will make sure you are up to standard but you will not have to do it all again. It does not matter whether you are paying for a GFPT, PPL, CPL or Instructor Rating; you need to be comfortable with the aerodrome, the aeroplane, the operator and the instructor. If you are unsure of any one of these, you progress will be impeded.
And one last word. When you have your rating, don't visit the same sins upon you students. Best of luck.
"DO NOT PUSH THE RED BUTTON"...
if you get my drift.
Bail mate... get your money back and bail...
think of it this way...
If you are not happy as a customer...... Imagine when it comes time to work there.... some good schools may charge a little more but the quality usually is excellent and you really get your monies worth. Talk to people in your state and you will be pleasantly surprised.....
"follow the bright light... go towards the light" (The school with students)...
if you get my drift.
Bail mate... get your money back and bail...
think of it this way...
If you are not happy as a customer...... Imagine when it comes time to work there.... some good schools may charge a little more but the quality usually is excellent and you really get your monies worth. Talk to people in your state and you will be pleasantly surprised.....
"follow the bright light... go towards the light" (The school with students)...
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Mate do it, get out. Back in the day when I did my initial grade 3, it took 6 weeks. I was there every day 9-5 (except weekends). We ended up logging 180 hours ground instruction, and the normal 50 hours flying, but the point being we were there everyday and working at it getting done. We had 2 and sometimes 3 instructors there to get us up and our flying hours done so that we could get our rating. Dont burn your bridges, get your training records and go elsewhere, thats a joke the way they are treating you.
2c
2c
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Get out, get out now and name the school to warn others.
After you get your rating you like every other junior grade 3 will require guidence. This school does not sould like it is teaching you well. Go somewhere that will teach you to be a good instructor because they are good at it and CARE about their students. It is clear that this school does not care about you.
I say again. Get out get out NOW!!!!!!!!
If the CFI reads this forum. SHAME SHAME SHAME. Go to your local CASA office and hand back your G1.
After you get your rating you like every other junior grade 3 will require guidence. This school does not sould like it is teaching you well. Go somewhere that will teach you to be a good instructor because they are good at it and CARE about their students. It is clear that this school does not care about you.
I say again. Get out get out NOW!!!!!!!!
If the CFI reads this forum. SHAME SHAME SHAME. Go to your local CASA office and hand back your G1.
It should only take about 6-8 weeks full time, with the bulk of that time spent practicing, revising & listening to briefs with the other instructor trainees.
