Australian ATC controllers world's worst?
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Australian ATC controllers world's worst?
Australian ATC controllers world's worst?
Unecessary holding, overseperation, situational awareless, inept at vectoring, serviceless, lazy, tardy, ignorant...have I missed anything?
(Please- only educated views from licensed pilots. I do realise there may be some worse controllers in extremely poor undeveloped nations with little educational infrastructure.)
Unecessary holding, overseperation, situational awareless, inept at vectoring, serviceless, lazy, tardy, ignorant...have I missed anything?
(Please- only educated views from licensed pilots. I do realise there may be some worse controllers in extremely poor undeveloped nations with little educational infrastructure.)
Is this a wind-up? I seriously hope so....
Perhaps you should have just asked everyone with a pathological hate of ATC'ers to join you at bindook.com
To answer your question: No.
Perhaps you should have just asked everyone with a pathological hate of ATC'ers to join you at bindook.com
To answer your question: No.
Mostly Harmless
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One of the great things about being an ATC is feedback. Every six months somebody sits behind me exercising any rating I have and ensures I'm safe & efficient & providing services in a standard way (in their opinion anyhow).
When he/she is writing up the assessment they can't just write "Generally poor standard with rare bursts of mediocrity," they talk SPECIFICS.
Information flows from and to the major operators but I'm not aware of such a generally low opinion of us. In our regular staff forum session on Monday we had a visit from the B737 safety guy from White Rat airlines. All he had to say was we didn't seem to appreciate their workload in the TMA when confronted with a change to ILS approaches.
Blurtall seems to have saved up a career's worth of vitriol for his opening post, but I'd be happy to hear specifics from him or anyone. I want to learn how to do my job better.
Talking specifics, a big apol to the Virgin I vectored all over the sky to get to WAREN at 03 yesterday. Well, we got there at 02+30sec, but you had told me at 160ML you could have got there at 03 on track!
When he/she is writing up the assessment they can't just write "Generally poor standard with rare bursts of mediocrity," they talk SPECIFICS.
Information flows from and to the major operators but I'm not aware of such a generally low opinion of us. In our regular staff forum session on Monday we had a visit from the B737 safety guy from White Rat airlines. All he had to say was we didn't seem to appreciate their workload in the TMA when confronted with a change to ILS approaches.
Blurtall seems to have saved up a career's worth of vitriol for his opening post, but I'd be happy to hear specifics from him or anyone. I want to learn how to do my job better.
Talking specifics, a big apol to the Virgin I vectored all over the sky to get to WAREN at 03 yesterday. Well, we got there at 02+30sec, but you had told me at 160ML you could have got there at 03 on track!
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Karrank, I reckon that your colleagues in Perth are responsible for some ( if not most ) of the ill feeling toward ATC.
I think pilots have trouble coming to terms with the fact that they are ( supposedly ) operating to the same sep. stds as the rest of the country, and yet we know that if they handled traffic in SY the way they do in PH, you would require more holding fuel than the A/C can physically carry !
I think pilots have trouble coming to terms with the fact that they are ( supposedly ) operating to the same sep. stds as the rest of the country, and yet we know that if they handled traffic in SY the way they do in PH, you would require more holding fuel than the A/C can physically carry !
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I was held outside CB CTA for 4 minutes once to allow 2 Dash-8's to beat my Chieftain to the runway. Does that count.
On the positive side, I have had my fair share of pop-up ILS's into BN before. The BN guys are pretty accommodating really. Never met an ATC that wasn't professional before. Unfortunately I can't say the same about some of the pilots I've met. And I've met more than the average too.
TBT
On the positive side, I have had my fair share of pop-up ILS's into BN before. The BN guys are pretty accommodating really. Never met an ATC that wasn't professional before. Unfortunately I can't say the same about some of the pilots I've met. And I've met more than the average too.
TBT
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Well, I'm not an aussie ATCO, however I can confirm that also in my part of the world there are pilots (the ones with the white gloves on), who apparently have the ultimate overview when they are flying.
Therefore they can assess if the holding they have to fly is unnessecary and that the separation was more than required (damn, we crossed them with 7 miles instead of 5!).
Educated (sic!) views from licensed pilots are demanded.
Put your (white) gloves on and give it to them!
Therefore they can assess if the holding they have to fly is unnessecary and that the separation was more than required (damn, we crossed them with 7 miles instead of 5!).
Educated (sic!) views from licensed pilots are demanded.
Put your (white) gloves on and give it to them!
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****su. That dawned on me around five minutes after his momentous, incredibly enlightened and intelligent first post.
I debated "disciplining" Churchill for wasting band width but restrained myself so you guys could play with him first!
Welcome back Winstun. I see you still can't spell your name correctly. But I see you have a new ISP?
Friggin' bone!
Woomera
I debated "disciplining" Churchill for wasting band width but restrained myself so you guys could play with him first!
Welcome back Winstun. I see you still can't spell your name correctly. But I see you have a new ISP?
Friggin' bone!
Woomera
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Likewise ****su; Must be too many glasses of good South Aussie Reds that I've had this evening. Did'nt tumble to the bloody obvious until reading your post.
Wonder if he'll ever give up?
You only live twice. Once when
you're born. Once when
you've looked death in the face.
Wonder if he'll ever give up?
You only live twice. Once when
you're born. Once when
you've looked death in the face.
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No common sense prevails
A few years ago I was visiting a good Australian friend of mine in Sydney. He lives in a small ranch with a helipad about 1 mile from the edge of your Richmond Control Airspace - from memory it was NE of Richmond airfield.
I flew a Squirrel helicopter at 500 feet in CAVOK, tried to get clearance to land at his ranch but was made to hold 10 minutes or so at the boundary whilst a Hercules on IFR training landed. I could see his ranch, he could see me, Richmond airport was 12 miles away, I was at 500 feet, the Hercules was about 10 miles away and at least at 5000 feet possibly more and clearance was denied. It is simply not possible to collide at these separations.
Anyhow, I landed safely eventually but am amazed at the lack of flexibility and the poor planning that resulted in the HUGE size of your Richmond control airspace - much larger than Sydney, Melbourne and Brisbane added (it's true - go measure on a sectional map).
Other than that, I loved flying in Australia.
I flew a Squirrel helicopter at 500 feet in CAVOK, tried to get clearance to land at his ranch but was made to hold 10 minutes or so at the boundary whilst a Hercules on IFR training landed. I could see his ranch, he could see me, Richmond airport was 12 miles away, I was at 500 feet, the Hercules was about 10 miles away and at least at 5000 feet possibly more and clearance was denied. It is simply not possible to collide at these separations.
Anyhow, I landed safely eventually but am amazed at the lack of flexibility and the poor planning that resulted in the HUGE size of your Richmond control airspace - much larger than Sydney, Melbourne and Brisbane added (it's true - go measure on a sectional map).
Other than that, I loved flying in Australia.
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ensures I'm safe & efficient & providing services in a standard way (in their opinion anyhow).
I want to learn how to do my job better
Mr. Buffet, even more amazing is that they are not embarassed by their poor standard.
Mostly Harmless
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These are specifics?
Don't waste your time, there is a button on his profile guys & guyettes
"Add Churchall to Your Ignore List"
Still happy to talk specifics, I don't see how abuse achieves anything.
Don't waste your time, there is a button on his profile guys & guyettes
"Add Churchall to Your Ignore List"
Still happy to talk specifics, I don't see how abuse achieves anything.
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I know I'm taking the bait here but....
That would explain why we are held in reasonably high regard elsewhere in the world if we choose to expand our horizons.
At one stage we had over 40 previously Australian licensed ATCs here in Hongkers, the majority of whom are still here.
This is because:
A) we are an easy going bunch i.e. you don't get them down any faster by sh!tting yourself ( to paraphrase a well known ex SAAC)
B) we don't get "in" peoples faces when we disagree with them
C) we understand what we're trying to achieve rather than just operating a sausage machine
D) we don't take cr@p from upstarts like Churchall
E) we'll drink with anyone (even Poms)
That would explain why we are held in reasonably high regard elsewhere in the world if we choose to expand our horizons.
At one stage we had over 40 previously Australian licensed ATCs here in Hongkers, the majority of whom are still here.
This is because:
A) we are an easy going bunch i.e. you don't get them down any faster by sh!tting yourself ( to paraphrase a well known ex SAAC)
B) we don't get "in" peoples faces when we disagree with them
C) we understand what we're trying to achieve rather than just operating a sausage machine
D) we don't take cr@p from upstarts like Churchall
E) we'll drink with anyone (even Poms)
I don't want to be the best pilot in the world - Just the oldest
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I'll have a nibble at the bait also,
Seems a little ironic that Aussie controllers are at the moment running perhaps one of the most dangerous CTA areas in the world, ie IRAQ. And please dont patronise me with an il informed comment like "But they're RAAF".
Now I wonder why that would be Winstun Churchall? Perhaps the rest of the aviation community doesn't see it the same way as you.
I have a question for you. You're not by any chance Skygod's b@stard brother are you? The immaturity and lack of any industry insight certainly leads me to that conclusion.
Seems a little ironic that Aussie controllers are at the moment running perhaps one of the most dangerous CTA areas in the world, ie IRAQ. And please dont patronise me with an il informed comment like "But they're RAAF".
Now I wonder why that would be Winstun Churchall? Perhaps the rest of the aviation community doesn't see it the same way as you.
I have a question for you. You're not by any chance Skygod's b@stard brother are you? The immaturity and lack of any industry insight certainly leads me to that conclusion.
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karrank
When the crew advised they could make good the required time, they would have computed that via the FMC, RTA page and would have slowed down.
However, when you give vectors the RTA may be left out. Most operators would have the assumption your vectors should be extending track miles to make good the RTA. Please correct me if I am wrong.
Q. Do you understand we can’t wash off 100 knots in a few seconds? Sometimes I have to wonder if the person at the other end has ever been flying.
Eg: A very bad situation, Cancel speed restrictions above and below 10,000 on the NAREL STAR.
That part is ok.
At around 7,000ft, track direct to ROC, for V/A RWY 16. ($hit, we are too high) If the speed restriction had remained, the possibility of making a calm visual approach would be much greater. Instead we now have hands going crazy try to get down fast.
I’m not saying this happens all the time, but you asked for specifics.
I could go on, karrank if you would like to set up a private chat, be my guest.
a big apol to the Virgin I vectored all over the sky to get to WAREN at 03 yesterday. Well, we got there at 02+30sec, but you had told me at 160ML you could have got there at 03 on track!
When the crew advised they could make good the required time, they would have computed that via the FMC, RTA page and would have slowed down.
However, when you give vectors the RTA may be left out. Most operators would have the assumption your vectors should be extending track miles to make good the RTA. Please correct me if I am wrong.
Q. Do you understand we can’t wash off 100 knots in a few seconds? Sometimes I have to wonder if the person at the other end has ever been flying.
Eg: A very bad situation, Cancel speed restrictions above and below 10,000 on the NAREL STAR.
That part is ok.
At around 7,000ft, track direct to ROC, for V/A RWY 16. ($hit, we are too high) If the speed restriction had remained, the possibility of making a calm visual approach would be much greater. Instead we now have hands going crazy try to get down fast.
I’m not saying this happens all the time, but you asked for specifics.
I could go on, karrank if you would like to set up a private chat, be my guest.
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My thoughts. Abolish the term "visual approach.' Why? Because everyone flies that style of approach a little differently. ATC should nominate the speed when they want people to slow down to and that stops the reduction or increase in seperation track miles.
Get rid of the 250kts exiting the hold. And for christ sake if they've got radar use it effectively. And finally, if any of the ATCO's can organise a study trip, I suggest visiting London, in particular LGW, for an education on how to handle a 'busy' single runway traffic environment.
Get rid of the 250kts exiting the hold. And for christ sake if they've got radar use it effectively. And finally, if any of the ATCO's can organise a study trip, I suggest visiting London, in particular LGW, for an education on how to handle a 'busy' single runway traffic environment.
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Love to go on a study trip ....anywhere.
Since September 11, famil flights are so restrictive they're not worth the bother, and consequently not taken up. And as for study trips outside Oz. Forget it. 100 million reasons Airservices won't pay for that.
Props,
ATCs are taught that as a rule of thumb, jets wash off about 1 knot per second. Is that right?
I can only talk from a Brissie perspective, but if ATC vector to make good a set course time, we would like you to hold the speed that you had immediately prior to the vector. If we want a different speed we'll tell you.
If you are too high, just let us know. Sometimes the reason for the suddenly different tracking/speed instruction is because one of your comrades in another aircraft has had a problem/done something unexpected/unable to comply with an instruction.
In Brisbane, Approach north looks after the northern arrivals and departures, and of course App south does the southern. They use two different frequencies. Each controller fits his sequence of aircraft in around the other whcih is established by the Flow.
Hence you might have a radically different instruction because of something that happened on the other approach frequency. You won't, therefore, be aware of the reason. Sometimes the controllers get too busy to provide explanations.
I would also suggest that you visit an ATC centre like Brissie or Melbourne, get plugged in and watch and listen to how it all works.
All pilots are welcome to visit at any time.
Since September 11, famil flights are so restrictive they're not worth the bother, and consequently not taken up. And as for study trips outside Oz. Forget it. 100 million reasons Airservices won't pay for that.
Props,
ATCs are taught that as a rule of thumb, jets wash off about 1 knot per second. Is that right?
I can only talk from a Brissie perspective, but if ATC vector to make good a set course time, we would like you to hold the speed that you had immediately prior to the vector. If we want a different speed we'll tell you.
If you are too high, just let us know. Sometimes the reason for the suddenly different tracking/speed instruction is because one of your comrades in another aircraft has had a problem/done something unexpected/unable to comply with an instruction.
In Brisbane, Approach north looks after the northern arrivals and departures, and of course App south does the southern. They use two different frequencies. Each controller fits his sequence of aircraft in around the other whcih is established by the Flow.
Hence you might have a radically different instruction because of something that happened on the other approach frequency. You won't, therefore, be aware of the reason. Sometimes the controllers get too busy to provide explanations.
I would also suggest that you visit an ATC centre like Brissie or Melbourne, get plugged in and watch and listen to how it all works.
All pilots are welcome to visit at any time.
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I love the clearance limits used in abundance in the USA. Tell me what time, place and altitude limits you want me to conform with and I can let the 'puter (or the knoggin) handle the rest. Takes some load off ATC and puts it in the cockpit in regions where cockpit workloads are generally not that high anyway. When ATC start radar vectoring (necessary at times, I know) I feel like I'm back learning how to fly IFR and chasing localiser needles.