The employees have no money, then let them eat cake!
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Jeez - $10K for work!.
That is a prime example of why the industry is in the state it is. That is also why there will not be any solidarity among Pilots and why the AFAP is a failure despite good intentions.
I hope that a few of Kelly's newby peers invest in an SMS to the mobile number that he published or to the email that he published to ask him to withdraw his offer or change his ad in the next trader to 'Reward - opportunity for a company to aquire a hard working Pilot for a fair days pay'.
That is a prime example of why the industry is in the state it is. That is also why there will not be any solidarity among Pilots and why the AFAP is a failure despite good intentions.
I hope that a few of Kelly's newby peers invest in an SMS to the mobile number that he published or to the email that he published to ask him to withdraw his offer or change his ad in the next trader to 'Reward - opportunity for a company to aquire a hard working Pilot for a fair days pay'.
PPRuNe's Paramedic
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IMHO
the majority of pilots know that their "employer" by direct employment, voluntary or contract is or isnt doing the right thing by them or their clients. Most pilots have a basic overveiw of their rights and obligations, but not a thorough understanding.
The vast majority of GA pilots can be summed up as the following -
1 Broke... living below the poverty line is detrimental to paying optional fees.
2 Scared of repercussions resulting from asking the "wrong questions" let alone rock the boat over an answer. This also includes the lack of foresight into what to do what it all turns bad.
3 Dont have a clue who to contact and under what circumstances.
4 Wont study the "irrelevant stuff" as time contraints, survival and financial contraints do not generally allow for such extra curricular study. (besides, it aint no bedtime story but gawd its enough to put a person to sleep!)
5 Still too broke to ring someone or consult with legal resources after or during a less than desirable event, incident, accident or dismissal.
6 Still too scared to wear the responsiblity for owning up as it may cause repercussions with the next possible job if a dismissal or injury occur.
7 There a a few who are more interested in stabbing their fellow pals in the back rather than help....
8 Another group who make it through GA thinking along the "Im a good enough pilot to hadle this s@$tbox, so nothing is gonna happen and we havent had CASA here for ages"... lines and similar. Bad news is, an accumulation of factors potentially needs less to go wrong before it results in something nasty.
Sure, a team effort is required to enure better conditions, and a union is only as good as its membership. Legal practice and success during a case is based on substantiatable fact. Anything else is heresay. If an event occurs, it is more than likely a result of a number of factors. A combination that has a trail that each contributing aspect leaves. And oddly enough, its usually on paper. One highly recommended task is to write a dirary each day. A dirary, like a logbook, is a legal document under the right circumstances. Keep company memos, including those that threaten company pilots and research requirements. For smaller operations where the paper trail is less than defined, a diary is a must, and honesty even more so.
A liar bearing a grudge without fact makes a very poor witness indeed. Integrity is so important if you want to make a change to something. Be it your own backyard, your lifestyle or your workplace. Letters with irrelevant, unsubtantiated claims often go nowhere, good letters need following up the chain for redefinition or a result. Often its a couple of simple factors that need addressing and a successful claim is then made.
Been through that mill, bruised but smiling..... and bruises heal.
the majority of pilots know that their "employer" by direct employment, voluntary or contract is or isnt doing the right thing by them or their clients. Most pilots have a basic overveiw of their rights and obligations, but not a thorough understanding.
The vast majority of GA pilots can be summed up as the following -
1 Broke... living below the poverty line is detrimental to paying optional fees.
2 Scared of repercussions resulting from asking the "wrong questions" let alone rock the boat over an answer. This also includes the lack of foresight into what to do what it all turns bad.
3 Dont have a clue who to contact and under what circumstances.
4 Wont study the "irrelevant stuff" as time contraints, survival and financial contraints do not generally allow for such extra curricular study. (besides, it aint no bedtime story but gawd its enough to put a person to sleep!)
5 Still too broke to ring someone or consult with legal resources after or during a less than desirable event, incident, accident or dismissal.
6 Still too scared to wear the responsiblity for owning up as it may cause repercussions with the next possible job if a dismissal or injury occur.
7 There a a few who are more interested in stabbing their fellow pals in the back rather than help....
8 Another group who make it through GA thinking along the "Im a good enough pilot to hadle this s@$tbox, so nothing is gonna happen and we havent had CASA here for ages"... lines and similar. Bad news is, an accumulation of factors potentially needs less to go wrong before it results in something nasty.
Sure, a team effort is required to enure better conditions, and a union is only as good as its membership. Legal practice and success during a case is based on substantiatable fact. Anything else is heresay. If an event occurs, it is more than likely a result of a number of factors. A combination that has a trail that each contributing aspect leaves. And oddly enough, its usually on paper. One highly recommended task is to write a dirary each day. A dirary, like a logbook, is a legal document under the right circumstances. Keep company memos, including those that threaten company pilots and research requirements. For smaller operations where the paper trail is less than defined, a diary is a must, and honesty even more so.
A liar bearing a grudge without fact makes a very poor witness indeed. Integrity is so important if you want to make a change to something. Be it your own backyard, your lifestyle or your workplace. Letters with irrelevant, unsubtantiated claims often go nowhere, good letters need following up the chain for redefinition or a result. Often its a couple of simple factors that need addressing and a successful claim is then made.
Been through that mill, bruised but smiling..... and bruises heal.
PPRuNe Handmaiden
I am a member of the AFAP. They did the right thing when I needed them. I'm happy with their performance.
I am still a member of AFAP and now a member of BALPA too.
I am still a member of AFAP and now a member of BALPA too.
Now I question I have reguarding all this is the paying of employees to shut up and take no further action, is this common around the industry? I have now heard of several pilots being given a goodbye cash incentive providing they fanish like a fart into the night. These kind of payment seem to be given when said employee obviously has something to hide (be it from authorities or press). Is such a payment an admission of guilt (would be on current affair) or just purely to get rid of any possible trouble, and if so wouldn't have been doing the right thing in the first place the cheaper option. I'm not sure that paying the person to go away is the right thing , but I also think the person accepting the money is doing the industry no favours (though may aid themselves- again looking after number one!).
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I was also a member around 10 years ago. I had a serious issue with an employer and contacted them for assistance. On more than one occasion I got the "we will get back to you" Of course they never did. The membership fee is rather high when all you get is a diary.
p*ss poor
p*ss poor
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Empoyment conditions a condition of safety
A recently now closed thread about an NT employer did bring out an important issue 1st. Seen in the Monarch, Seaview and more recently in the 2001 Lake Evella crash, pilot employment conditions are a critical component of a safe infrastructure.
(Re-posting from closed "You have done well HA" thread.)
Article from an old copy of the ANU Reporter (the uni rag)... by Shelly Simonds on deregulation and referring to studies done by ANU Prof. John Hopkins, Dec '97 (ah the good ol' days).
Perhaps its time the regulatory bodies looked more closely at pay and employment conditions (leave, living conditions, sick leave, etc) as part of conditions for AOC's.
(Re-posting from closed "You have done well HA" thread.)
Article from an old copy of the ANU Reporter (the uni rag)... by Shelly Simonds on deregulation and referring to studies done by ANU Prof. John Hopkins, Dec '97 (ah the good ol' days).
"The problems revealed in the Monarch and Seaview air disasters still persist and the Civil Aviation Safety Authority doesn't seem to be able to deal with them," said Prof Hopkins.
The deregulation of the labour market for pilots is one major problem, he said. After a series of unsuccessful strikes, the number of salaried pilots has dropped and an increasing number are working as casuals for small operators.
"Casualisation makes it hard for pilots because if they're worried about safety and refuse to fly a plane, they won't get paid," said Prof Hopkins.
The deregulation of the labour market for pilots is one major problem, he said. After a series of unsuccessful strikes, the number of salaried pilots has dropped and an increasing number are working as casuals for small operators.
"Casualisation makes it hard for pilots because if they're worried about safety and refuse to fly a plane, they won't get paid," said Prof Hopkins.
Another result of the deregulated employment market for pilots was increased competition for piloting experience. Pilots desperate to build up hours in the air, were willing to serve as copilots for Monarch without pay, a Senate inquiry into the Monarch crash was told.
"The chaotic nature of the deregulated labour market for pilots was a contributing factor to the Monarch crash," said Prof Hopkins.
"The chaotic nature of the deregulated labour market for pilots was a contributing factor to the Monarch crash," said Prof Hopkins.
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For those who want another solution if they believe the AFAP just don't cut it, apparently the TWU will now support pilots, anyway here is a more onformative thread.
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...hreadid=121381
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...hreadid=121381
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Mates (commrades!), if you are NOT a member of the union, you are mad. Being a member of the union entitles you to representation and assistance if you are involved in an accident or incident. This alone should be sufficeint incentive to join. Engine out's suggestion of the list of pirate employers is not a bad one, however I suggest the converse view. That is, a list of the DECENT employers who DO provide proper conditions. The only problem is, I cant think of any. I heard of a certain operator who pays the award(which is commendable, but by no means unique), but uses a CASA approved(CAO 48 exemption) fatigue management system that results pilots putting in 50-60 hours a week, cleaning aircraft and other odd jobs after flying. This equates to a wage of around $13 per hour. As George Handle says, this indicates that the regulator is complicit in the degradation of industry conditions.
As an aside, a mate from way back once got a job in FNQ flying a light twin to the resort islands. On arriving from Melbourne to start work, he was shown to his living accomadation. This was a room at the back of the hangar with a bed, desk, chair, kettle and toaster oven. The toilet and shower were at the other end of the hangar. His boss told him that as things were slow, that he could only pay him for flying time, at $30 p.h. On his first week, he flew 32 hours; wow, $960! His boss then told him that as things had "picked up" he could now be put on full-time and he was given $375. Next payday, the boss 'didn't have his cheque book with him', but gave him $100 to tide him over. Next week, the boss was 'out of town'. A charter had been arranged to fly some Cocky around for 3 days. My mate did this and at the end of the charter was given the $2500 fee in cash. He flew back to his base, arriving at about 9pm, packed his bags and drove back to Melbourne, pocketing the $2500 as 'undelivered salary' for 3 1/2 weeks work.
Someone above spoke of keeping a dairy; a bloody good idea. Did you know that many Airline Captains keep a general dairy of the days flying just in case they get a call from the Chief 4 days later to explain a seemingly trival event, such as a late departure? I spent some time in GA post Ansett and keeped a dairy of my flying with a particular company. The owner/cp not only flouted the law but also had some sort of behavioural problem that indicated that he was medcally unsuitable to engage in flight operations. In the end, I resigned and explained quite clearly the reasons why I was leaving, being that due to his behaviour, I could not be party to this man occupying a control seat during operations. I fully expected to be assulted ( as he had treatened me on the previous day) or, at best sworn at. Instead he burst into tears and explained that his wife had told him that he had a problem and should get help. I submitted a CAIR report about this suggesting that the director of aviation medicine investigate. This didn't happen. Instead, some inspector interveiwed him and identified me as the source of the complaint. This led to a my-word-against-his situation and no action was taken. However, if this company is ever involved in an accident, I still have my diary. And I would be quite prepared to stand as a witness and tell all.
As an aside, a mate from way back once got a job in FNQ flying a light twin to the resort islands. On arriving from Melbourne to start work, he was shown to his living accomadation. This was a room at the back of the hangar with a bed, desk, chair, kettle and toaster oven. The toilet and shower were at the other end of the hangar. His boss told him that as things were slow, that he could only pay him for flying time, at $30 p.h. On his first week, he flew 32 hours; wow, $960! His boss then told him that as things had "picked up" he could now be put on full-time and he was given $375. Next payday, the boss 'didn't have his cheque book with him', but gave him $100 to tide him over. Next week, the boss was 'out of town'. A charter had been arranged to fly some Cocky around for 3 days. My mate did this and at the end of the charter was given the $2500 fee in cash. He flew back to his base, arriving at about 9pm, packed his bags and drove back to Melbourne, pocketing the $2500 as 'undelivered salary' for 3 1/2 weeks work.
Someone above spoke of keeping a dairy; a bloody good idea. Did you know that many Airline Captains keep a general dairy of the days flying just in case they get a call from the Chief 4 days later to explain a seemingly trival event, such as a late departure? I spent some time in GA post Ansett and keeped a dairy of my flying with a particular company. The owner/cp not only flouted the law but also had some sort of behavioural problem that indicated that he was medcally unsuitable to engage in flight operations. In the end, I resigned and explained quite clearly the reasons why I was leaving, being that due to his behaviour, I could not be party to this man occupying a control seat during operations. I fully expected to be assulted ( as he had treatened me on the previous day) or, at best sworn at. Instead he burst into tears and explained that his wife had told him that he had a problem and should get help. I submitted a CAIR report about this suggesting that the director of aviation medicine investigate. This didn't happen. Instead, some inspector interveiwed him and identified me as the source of the complaint. This led to a my-word-against-his situation and no action was taken. However, if this company is ever involved in an accident, I still have my diary. And I would be quite prepared to stand as a witness and tell all.
All the stories sound very familiar, but what can we do about it?
So is the GA award legally meant to cover all GA pilots and employers (that's how I read it), or only respondents to it?
If the former is the case, why can't AFAP enforce it?
I've heard it argued convincingly both ways, however no one can provide references.
So is the GA award legally meant to cover all GA pilots and employers (that's how I read it), or only respondents to it?
If the former is the case, why can't AFAP enforce it?
I've heard it argued convincingly both ways, however no one can provide references.
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Did everyone get to see on the evening news a few nights back about the crack strike by truckies in (I think) Sydney.
I say good on them, these guys have working conditions similar; if not worse then ours (G.A pilots). I was not impressed by the comments from the minister who commented or the (TWU??) rep. It's as though they didn't care about the truckies issues.
There plight is no different then ours. They are a group who's alliance is connected by telephone conversations and ...internet.
Unlike say nursing or teachers, the pilots and truckies don't have strong union membership or a tough union. It is unlikely to change.
I would be interested in any examples where other industries (like ours) have been able to keep unionism active rather than passive.
U2
I say good on them, these guys have working conditions similar; if not worse then ours (G.A pilots). I was not impressed by the comments from the minister who commented or the (TWU??) rep. It's as though they didn't care about the truckies issues.
There plight is no different then ours. They are a group who's alliance is connected by telephone conversations and ...internet.
Unlike say nursing or teachers, the pilots and truckies don't have strong union membership or a tough union. It is unlikely to change.
I would be interested in any examples where other industries (like ours) have been able to keep unionism active rather than passive.
U2
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Playing into the Hands of Crooks
U2, you are a gem! If we all stood up against these bastards (and bitches!) then we might actually get somewhere... I DO know that a lot of owners and CASA read this site and I DO know that I have angered and hurt a lot of fragile egos out there on both sides of the fence. Anything that I have written is the truth and nothing but the truth - something that is sadly lacking in GA today. I am so angered and frustrated by seeing so many good people in aviation (intelligent, talented but fiercely individualistic) slide down a road of despair and apathy. At the Uni. we see parents mortgaging their homes to put their sons and daughters through only to be stuck in some hell-hole somewhere and PAYING to work there!!! Outbloodyrageous!!!! My message to you people at CASA is, START DOING YOUR JOBS and stop worrying about what people are saying about you... by you being upset, means that you are guilty and have something to hide. I can give you a number for anger management courses, Dale, I know that you are too old to change those wonderful "people skills" of yours but at least maybe you could see in some small way how you really appear to the world. It is not a nice picture, believe me... I knew your father and mother, so I can certainly understand to a certain extent why you are who you are... very sad....
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The Chamber of Commerce NT would like to inform you that the Australian Federation of Air Pilots has made an application for the above awards to be made common rule in the Northern Territory. The application will be heard in the Australian Industrial Relations Commission on 24 March 2004 at 12.30pm.
Plus the added costs of paying based on duty time rather than MR, and minimum 2 hrs pay for calling a pilot into work. And empoyers that opt for a salary based line pilots (as they should) add the cost of uniform allowances, ngt/ifr allowances, sick/holiday leave and super'.
Can anyone suggest action pilots in the NT can take to assist the AFAPs success (other than the obvious - become members).
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How much are you worth as a pilot?
Guys, it's really simple. You alone make a decision to work in this industry for what you think you are worth. You can't blame anyone other than yourselves if your salary is too low. You think you are worth only $100 per week then accept it and get on with it. However, if you accept to work for sh*t wages, don't come back to the rest of us and complain about the pay.
Some sections of the the industry thrive on this sort of subsidy and this in turn leads to the proliferation of the outfits that expect you to work for peanuts. It's up to you and your mates. No-one is forcing you to work for sh*t wages, you choose to do it yourselves. If it's not you accepting sh*t, then it's your mates, or your "colleagues".
The sensible folks are those like the guy who went and worked in an underground mine. He at least was working for what he figured he was worth.
Don't prostitute yourselves, or this industry. If you can't get what you think you are worth, go find something else. Do't fool yourselves into thinking that a union will be the magic bullet. You've got to do it yourselves.
Some sections of the the industry thrive on this sort of subsidy and this in turn leads to the proliferation of the outfits that expect you to work for peanuts. It's up to you and your mates. No-one is forcing you to work for sh*t wages, you choose to do it yourselves. If it's not you accepting sh*t, then it's your mates, or your "colleagues".
The sensible folks are those like the guy who went and worked in an underground mine. He at least was working for what he figured he was worth.
Don't prostitute yourselves, or this industry. If you can't get what you think you are worth, go find something else. Do't fool yourselves into thinking that a union will be the magic bullet. You've got to do it yourselves.
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Howzit!
I have just joined the AFAP after reading this post by nungry
here
I have heard comments, both good and bad. However who else is going to bat for GA? It s them or no one.
I look forward to the IRC decision for the GA award to become Common Rule in the NT. Hopefully this will weed out the shonks due to wage costs and we may one day have a reasonable industry.
The GA award is the MINIMUM wage.
here
I have heard comments, both good and bad. However who else is going to bat for GA? It s them or no one.
I look forward to the IRC decision for the GA award to become Common Rule in the NT. Hopefully this will weed out the shonks due to wage costs and we may one day have a reasonable industry.
The GA award is the MINIMUM wage.
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As a charter pilot in the NT I think the single biggest thing we could do to improve safety and stop accidents and incidents is to have the award enforced.
Pilots at my company are so tired and stressed out that it is little wonder things don't always go the way the boss wants. It makes it that much harder to remember to put the gear down when you are stressing about the crazy high-tension work environment you are part of, the crazy renumeration you get and the lack of lifestyle that that brings about.
Precious little thanx ever comes you way either, strangely enough I think that would make a difference too.
go the 23rd.
Pilots at my company are so tired and stressed out that it is little wonder things don't always go the way the boss wants. It makes it that much harder to remember to put the gear down when you are stressing about the crazy high-tension work environment you are part of, the crazy renumeration you get and the lack of lifestyle that that brings about.
Precious little thanx ever comes you way either, strangely enough I think that would make a difference too.
go the 23rd.
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Mr Connell?
It would be great to get a response from the AFAP on some of the gripes thrown about here.
Where are the AFAP going?
Who are they taking on?
What issues in Industrial Law are going to affect us?
Other Unions I know have had a very effective information campaign for members.
Where are the AFAP going?
Who are they taking on?
What issues in Industrial Law are going to affect us?
Other Unions I know have had a very effective information campaign for members.
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OK AFAP - PUT UP!
It would indeed be interesting to hear what the AFAP has to say about the post that started this thread. Let's just assume that everything reported initially is correct about the original contract, being failed an IFR renewal for failing to sign said contract and then being paid off to shut-up! What would the AFAP do or what remedies are available to them in this particular case?
Come on chaps; let's hear from you guys directly!
Come on chaps; let's hear from you guys directly!
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I am a member of the AFAP. Presently, I am in the process of making a claim for unpaid wages, but because this employment commenced before I became a member, the AFAP are unable to assist in a worthwhile way.
So be aware. Don't join for what's happened in the past, join for what can be done in the future. Be aware of the Award and make sure your colleagues are aware of it also.
In a previous company, I, along with another pilot, requested to the Chief Pilot, that the minimum entitlements and allowances be paid and was met with a "if you keep it under your hat then we'll (the company) give you the entitlements". BTW the Chief Pilot was (and still is) a current member of the AFAP! I declined that generous offer and was soon looking for another job. The good thing is that now all the pilots employed within that company are getting what they are entitled to. Altruistic? Not really...I didn't expect to be fired...oh sorry, "made redundant". Although they hired another pilot to replace me.
It's funny when you try explaining the Award to a pilot who is not aware of it. Total surprise!
Regarding record keeping...detail everything. Photocopy your F & D times that you submit. One of the reasons my claim is so strong is because I have meticulous records. Previous employer is trying to convince the Dept of Workplace Relations that they didn't call me in and that I wasn't at work on many days that I claim the opposite. The unfortunate thing for him is that I had signed the MR proving that I was there. For the operators out there...no I didn't sneak in to work, daily the a/c, then slink off home. I lived 30 min from the airport. I I didn't go in unless I was asked to.
For those pilots who believe that they are not covered by the Award. From the Award...
It's pretty simple to interpret. So even if your operator is not a signatory to the award, then they must still pay the Award, as a minimum, if you are engaged in operations in 5.2 or are a member of AFAP (or both).
Also:
How often does this happen? 
A good operator has this incorporated into their Operations Manual. Maybe CASA could play a part by making sure that it is incorporated into the Ops Manual? Mind you, many operators have "good relations" with their local CASA officers.
Have some guts guys...the Award is not an "option' for operators to decide which parts, if any, they will accomodate.
The good operators find it impossible to compete with the shonky ones. So the more we encourage this behavior, by acccepting it, the fewer good operators we will find.
So be aware. Don't join for what's happened in the past, join for what can be done in the future. Be aware of the Award and make sure your colleagues are aware of it also.
In a previous company, I, along with another pilot, requested to the Chief Pilot, that the minimum entitlements and allowances be paid and was met with a "if you keep it under your hat then we'll (the company) give you the entitlements". BTW the Chief Pilot was (and still is) a current member of the AFAP! I declined that generous offer and was soon looking for another job. The good thing is that now all the pilots employed within that company are getting what they are entitled to. Altruistic? Not really...I didn't expect to be fired...oh sorry, "made redundant". Although they hired another pilot to replace me.
It's funny when you try explaining the Award to a pilot who is not aware of it. Total surprise!
Regarding record keeping...detail everything. Photocopy your F & D times that you submit. One of the reasons my claim is so strong is because I have meticulous records. Previous employer is trying to convince the Dept of Workplace Relations that they didn't call me in and that I wasn't at work on many days that I claim the opposite. The unfortunate thing for him is that I had signed the MR proving that I was there. For the operators out there...no I didn't sneak in to work, daily the a/c, then slink off home. I lived 30 min from the airport. I I didn't go in unless I was asked to.
For those pilots who believe that they are not covered by the Award. From the Award...
5.1 This award applies in Australia and its Territories. It is also applicable to pilots operating overseas from a base within Australia and its Territories on behalf of the operator
5.2 This award relates to the industry of persons employed as pilots in any capacity whether full-time, part-time or casual in General Aviation excepting Helicopters and Aerial Agriculture operations.
6 The award is binding upon each of the employers and/or operators named in Apppendix A; each pilot identified in 5.2, and the Australian Federation of Air Pilots.
Also:
9 This award will be exhibited by each employer on their premises in a place accessible to all employees
A good operator has this incorporated into their Operations Manual. Maybe CASA could play a part by making sure that it is incorporated into the Ops Manual? Mind you, many operators have "good relations" with their local CASA officers.
Have some guts guys...the Award is not an "option' for operators to decide which parts, if any, they will accomodate.
The good operators find it impossible to compete with the shonky ones. So the more we encourage this behavior, by acccepting it, the fewer good operators we will find.
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AFAP response part 1
I have been asked to respond to a number of points raised. Can I begin by saying we are a union which obliges a member to play a part not dictated form the top down. It is very easy to sit back and complain when things don’t go your way. This may come as a surprise to some but we don’t claim to be perfect on the contrary not everything will be resolved to an individuals’ satisfaction.
I believe that we spend time explaining the situation fully to the member involved as to why a decision went the way it did. If as has been put some did not get an explanation I more than happy to research it and respond to them.
The AFAP provides cover all commercial pilots with the exception of QF Mainline and Domestic which fall under the AIPA (former overseas branch of AFAP who split away in 1980). Both organisations currently work under AUS ALPA for our relations with the International Federation of Airline Pilots Associations (IFALPA). Our structure is made up of elected pilots in each state or territory. Our head office is based in Melbourne and has four industrial staff plus part time technical and full time administration staff.
The body was originally called AAPA in 1947 and for industrial reasons at the time formed AFAP in 1959. This worked as an unregistered organisation until the Flight Crew Officers Industrial Tribunal (FCOIT) was formed around 1970 when we were a ‘declared body’. In 1986 both AFAP and AIPA became fully registered under the then Concilation and Arbitration Act. In 1988 the Act became the Industrial Relations Act 1988 and the FCOIT was abolished. Part of our strength was the ability to represent our core members in Airlines but equally provide coverage back in General Aviation. Post the 1989 dispute our ability to do so was severely limited by resources. We still continued to represent our members where needed. Our previous efforts of going out and auditing a company to see if they were paying the Award was stopped due to lack of resources. The reason we conducted such audits was to keep the operators honest and to provide education to the future group of airline pilots in the country. We had good working relationships with the General Aviation Association (GAA) who you could call on to point out to a member of theirs who were not complying with the Award, sadly the GAA no longer exists.
As for the case at the start of this thread it would be very easy for me to say that legally what is alleged is an offence under the Act however without the full detail I could not give a specific answer. It is unfortunate that there are numerous pilots who have taken a similar sought of action due to being identified as a trouble maker. No union can force someone to enforce an Award if they choose not to. It is unfortunate that the industry is full of such examples and despite efforts over the years to educate it is not until someone is established in a reasonable position that they then reminisce as to how it should have been. As to the future our membership has grown significantly a lot due to peer influence we are making our presence felt more in the industry and there will always be our share of knockers. Ultimately it is up to you as a pilot to get in help or sit back and watch. What is to be?
In the Northern Territory and Victoria we are presently applying for ‘Common Rule’ Awards so as to ensure equal coverage, in NAS we are still putting views to the appropriate authorities about our concerns, we are still pursuing a number of individual cases in the Industrial Relations Commission. The Federation is proudly independent of outside influences and will remain so but it is the membership that will determine the future.
I cannot answer everything in the thread but happy to answer an email.
Lawrie Cox Manager – Industrial Relations
Australian Federation of Air Pilots
Level 6, 132 Albert Road
South Melbourne Vic 3205
Ph (03) 9699 4200 Fx (03) 9699 8199
[email protected] or [email protected] or www.afap.org.au
I believe that we spend time explaining the situation fully to the member involved as to why a decision went the way it did. If as has been put some did not get an explanation I more than happy to research it and respond to them.
The AFAP provides cover all commercial pilots with the exception of QF Mainline and Domestic which fall under the AIPA (former overseas branch of AFAP who split away in 1980). Both organisations currently work under AUS ALPA for our relations with the International Federation of Airline Pilots Associations (IFALPA). Our structure is made up of elected pilots in each state or territory. Our head office is based in Melbourne and has four industrial staff plus part time technical and full time administration staff.
The body was originally called AAPA in 1947 and for industrial reasons at the time formed AFAP in 1959. This worked as an unregistered organisation until the Flight Crew Officers Industrial Tribunal (FCOIT) was formed around 1970 when we were a ‘declared body’. In 1986 both AFAP and AIPA became fully registered under the then Concilation and Arbitration Act. In 1988 the Act became the Industrial Relations Act 1988 and the FCOIT was abolished. Part of our strength was the ability to represent our core members in Airlines but equally provide coverage back in General Aviation. Post the 1989 dispute our ability to do so was severely limited by resources. We still continued to represent our members where needed. Our previous efforts of going out and auditing a company to see if they were paying the Award was stopped due to lack of resources. The reason we conducted such audits was to keep the operators honest and to provide education to the future group of airline pilots in the country. We had good working relationships with the General Aviation Association (GAA) who you could call on to point out to a member of theirs who were not complying with the Award, sadly the GAA no longer exists.
As for the case at the start of this thread it would be very easy for me to say that legally what is alleged is an offence under the Act however without the full detail I could not give a specific answer. It is unfortunate that there are numerous pilots who have taken a similar sought of action due to being identified as a trouble maker. No union can force someone to enforce an Award if they choose not to. It is unfortunate that the industry is full of such examples and despite efforts over the years to educate it is not until someone is established in a reasonable position that they then reminisce as to how it should have been. As to the future our membership has grown significantly a lot due to peer influence we are making our presence felt more in the industry and there will always be our share of knockers. Ultimately it is up to you as a pilot to get in help or sit back and watch. What is to be?
In the Northern Territory and Victoria we are presently applying for ‘Common Rule’ Awards so as to ensure equal coverage, in NAS we are still putting views to the appropriate authorities about our concerns, we are still pursuing a number of individual cases in the Industrial Relations Commission. The Federation is proudly independent of outside influences and will remain so but it is the membership that will determine the future.
I cannot answer everything in the thread but happy to answer an email.
Lawrie Cox Manager – Industrial Relations
Australian Federation of Air Pilots
Level 6, 132 Albert Road
South Melbourne Vic 3205
Ph (03) 9699 4200 Fx (03) 9699 8199
[email protected] or [email protected] or www.afap.org.au