Aussie ATPL for foreign military pilots?
PPRuNe Handmaiden
Global TM,
You're not quite right regarding the UK/JAR situation. Only a person who has a min of 3000 hours with a min of 1500 hours TT in command (not FO time) of an aircraft of plus 30 tonnes in primarily international ops or similar can do the abbreviated conversion. (ref LASORS Section G G1.5 Note 2) This will get you a (JAR) UK ATPL only. This cannot (at this time) be used to fly any thing other than G-reg aircraft (without specific national permission) (ref LASORS Section G G1.5 Note 1) Both are on page 295.
If the candidate for a JAR ATPL has 4000 hours FO time on eg a 737 in Australia, tough luck, they have to do the full 14 exams.
You're not quite right regarding the UK/JAR situation. Only a person who has a min of 3000 hours with a min of 1500 hours TT in command (not FO time) of an aircraft of plus 30 tonnes in primarily international ops or similar can do the abbreviated conversion. (ref LASORS Section G G1.5 Note 2) This will get you a (JAR) UK ATPL only. This cannot (at this time) be used to fly any thing other than G-reg aircraft (without specific national permission) (ref LASORS Section G G1.5 Note 1) Both are on page 295.
If the candidate for a JAR ATPL has 4000 hours FO time on eg a 737 in Australia, tough luck, they have to do the full 14 exams.
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RS, I agree with you are quite right, however your quote ’’You're not quite right regarding the UK/JAR situation. Only a person who has a min of 3000 hours with a min of 1500 hours TT in command (not FO time) of an aircraft of plus 30 tonnes in primarily international ops or similar can do the abbreviated conversion’’.What is so strange about that? If a person has the above experience and goes ahead with the conversion, are you saying that the UK airlines will not accept his application because he has not completed all of the 14 JAA subjects? I do not think so.
Hence my argument, why an experienced person must complete all 7 Aus subjects in order to be employable in Aus?
No need is there, 3000 hrs 737 is 3000 hrs 737 no matter where you go and nothing should stand in one’s way apart from their own attitude and approach in gaining employment.( of course apart from this ridiculous requirement that one has to have all 7 subjects done in Aus). I can see a lot of us expat’s hurrying along to go back to what we were all running away from in the first place.
Requirements.
GTM
Hence my argument, why an experienced person must complete all 7 Aus subjects in order to be employable in Aus?
No need is there, 3000 hrs 737 is 3000 hrs 737 no matter where you go and nothing should stand in one’s way apart from their own attitude and approach in gaining employment.( of course apart from this ridiculous requirement that one has to have all 7 subjects done in Aus). I can see a lot of us expat’s hurrying along to go back to what we were all running away from in the first place.
Requirements.
GTM
PPRuNe Handmaiden
Simple, it's a G-reg licence only. You can't take it to eg Ryanair. They are an Irish reg company.
If a german company offers you a job you will find it extremely difficult to convert that UK issued ATPL to an eg German JAR issued ATPL.
It is a trap that has caught a few guys out.
Also, you did state that FO's were exempt the 14 exams. They are not. Only people with command time will get the exemption. (A small point but it's caugth out folk here too)
The UK ATPL based on 2 exams (and a sim check) because of you have command time can be closed when ever they like. JAA is about to undergo yet another name change. EASA is the new name I think. The CAA have changed the IR conversion requirements 3 times in 3 years.
To do the 7 exams in Australia is much more straight forward than any thing JAR can throw at you. Darn sight cheaper too. (esp if you don't have that magical command time) Trust me on that one....
If a german company offers you a job you will find it extremely difficult to convert that UK issued ATPL to an eg German JAR issued ATPL.
It is a trap that has caught a few guys out.
Also, you did state that FO's were exempt the 14 exams. They are not. Only people with command time will get the exemption. (A small point but it's caugth out folk here too)
The UK ATPL based on 2 exams (and a sim check) because of you have command time can be closed when ever they like. JAA is about to undergo yet another name change. EASA is the new name I think. The CAA have changed the IR conversion requirements 3 times in 3 years.
To do the 7 exams in Australia is much more straight forward than any thing JAR can throw at you. Darn sight cheaper too. (esp if you don't have that magical command time) Trust me on that one....
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I just heard it straight from the horse’s mouth.
Converting a JAR ATPL to an Aus ATPL, having held an Aus CPL/IR already, by only sitting Air Law is not a hindrance to employment with any Aus airline. As long as one meets the airlines minimum requirements, they are not bothered on what basis a licence is obtained.
ATPL providers and the airlines have two very different opinions, the former would rather you do all 7 from obvious reasons.
RS, nice to see that some one is reading the reg’s.
I am sorry to contradict your understanding of the regulations, however a friend of mine, and I do mean a person that I know very well. He was offered a job with an ‘’Irish Company’’on a foreign licence even before he began his licence conversion, he was given 2 years to get his JAR licence here in the UK, whilst being employed at the same time. He completed his licence conversion here, and as you claim he can only fly ‘’G registered Aircraft only’’, he was/is flying for an ‘’Irish company’’ even before he received his ‘’G-registered aircraft only licence’’, well he is a Captain right now, 1.5 years later, this meaning that from the moment he stepped in to this country not 1.5 years after he completed his JAR Licence. He did not even have the right to live here and that was arranged for him. This is a fact.
Now let’s not even not talk about people that are from our part of the world with ample flight experience, just remember that they are well respected in this part of the world and if they hold a ‘’G registered licence only’’ they still get jobs on the continent or with ‘’Irish Companies’’. That is another fact.
The reg’s say one thing however airlines look at experience and what it can do for them.
Safe flying,
GTM
Converting a JAR ATPL to an Aus ATPL, having held an Aus CPL/IR already, by only sitting Air Law is not a hindrance to employment with any Aus airline. As long as one meets the airlines minimum requirements, they are not bothered on what basis a licence is obtained.
ATPL providers and the airlines have two very different opinions, the former would rather you do all 7 from obvious reasons.
RS, nice to see that some one is reading the reg’s.
I am sorry to contradict your understanding of the regulations, however a friend of mine, and I do mean a person that I know very well. He was offered a job with an ‘’Irish Company’’on a foreign licence even before he began his licence conversion, he was given 2 years to get his JAR licence here in the UK, whilst being employed at the same time. He completed his licence conversion here, and as you claim he can only fly ‘’G registered Aircraft only’’, he was/is flying for an ‘’Irish company’’ even before he received his ‘’G-registered aircraft only licence’’, well he is a Captain right now, 1.5 years later, this meaning that from the moment he stepped in to this country not 1.5 years after he completed his JAR Licence. He did not even have the right to live here and that was arranged for him. This is a fact.
Now let’s not even not talk about people that are from our part of the world with ample flight experience, just remember that they are well respected in this part of the world and if they hold a ‘’G registered licence only’’ they still get jobs on the continent or with ‘’Irish Companies’’. That is another fact.
The reg’s say one thing however airlines look at experience and what it can do for them.
Safe flying,
GTM
Last edited by Global TM; 19th May 2004 at 20:14.
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Global TM. I know of at least three Australian airlines/operators that will ASK you if you got your Aussie ATPL based on an ATPL issued in another country or whether you got it by going through the Aussie system.
People seem to infer that because such and such an airline/operator asked the question that it means you MUST have your aussie ATPL credits.
Some airlines/operators seem to frown on aussies who 'bypass' the Australian ATPL by going over to the US, getting their ATPL over there and then come back, do the airlaw exam and get their Aussie ATPL. Thus poeple are asked the question about the basis of their Aussie ATPL.
One reason behind this is that if the pilot decides to go back and do the aussie ATPL's and fails a subject then the pilot no longer has an ATPL and the airline/operator is now short one pilot with ATPL privilidges. And yes, it has happened!
It would appear that if you are from overseas and have a significant amount of experience then the airlines aren't quite as fussed about your Australian ATPL subjects.
Cheers
C & B
People seem to infer that because such and such an airline/operator asked the question that it means you MUST have your aussie ATPL credits.
Some airlines/operators seem to frown on aussies who 'bypass' the Australian ATPL by going over to the US, getting their ATPL over there and then come back, do the airlaw exam and get their Aussie ATPL. Thus poeple are asked the question about the basis of their Aussie ATPL.
One reason behind this is that if the pilot decides to go back and do the aussie ATPL's and fails a subject then the pilot no longer has an ATPL and the airline/operator is now short one pilot with ATPL privilidges. And yes, it has happened!
It would appear that if you are from overseas and have a significant amount of experience then the airlines aren't quite as fussed about your Australian ATPL subjects.
Cheers
C & B
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Rob,
Thanks for the info. Am planning on getting back late this year so will check things out.
Must say, the points that C&B put forward don't make a great deal of sense to me. I'm wouldn't agree that converting a JAA ATPL to an Aussie one is an easy way of by-passing (no relation
) the Aussie system.
As for the companies themselves, the only reason for asking how someone got their ATPL would seem to be a political one. If someone has a legal ATPL already, why in the good Lords name would they want to go back and do the ATPL subjects again, unless, they were asked to by their employer who wouldn't want them to take the exams anyway because then they might lose one of their employees!?!? Hope Global TM is right.
I'm now going to go and put a cold compress on my overheated brow...
Cheers,
LP
Thanks for the info. Am planning on getting back late this year so will check things out.
Must say, the points that C&B put forward don't make a great deal of sense to me. I'm wouldn't agree that converting a JAA ATPL to an Aussie one is an easy way of by-passing (no relation
) the Aussie system.As for the companies themselves, the only reason for asking how someone got their ATPL would seem to be a political one. If someone has a legal ATPL already, why in the good Lords name would they want to go back and do the ATPL subjects again, unless, they were asked to by their employer who wouldn't want them to take the exams anyway because then they might lose one of their employees!?!? Hope Global TM is right.
I'm now going to go and put a cold compress on my overheated brow...
Cheers,
LP
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Low-Pass,
I have spoken to a few HR managers, and to their credit they were extremely helpful and willing to spend a couple of minutes of their time, and what I was told is that if one has experience gained on their foreign licence then they are not viewed as by-passers of the system and there will be no need for one to sit all 7 subjects after they have an Aus ATPL issued on the basis of sitting Air Law alone.
One only has to sit Air Law and that is that.
The way one HR person put it was:’’ Are the training providers the airlines themselves? No, so do not loose sleep over what they tell you’’.
It makes sense and good on them for being able to see the wood from the trees.
Global TM
I have spoken to a few HR managers, and to their credit they were extremely helpful and willing to spend a couple of minutes of their time, and what I was told is that if one has experience gained on their foreign licence then they are not viewed as by-passers of the system and there will be no need for one to sit all 7 subjects after they have an Aus ATPL issued on the basis of sitting Air Law alone.
One only has to sit Air Law and that is that.
The way one HR person put it was:’’ Are the training providers the airlines themselves? No, so do not loose sleep over what they tell you’’.
It makes sense and good on them for being able to see the wood from the trees.
Global TM
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Low Pass - If you re-read my post you'll see I said that pilots obtain a US ATPL (not JAR) to 'bypass' the Aussie ATPL.
In regards to the question - Why would you resit the aussie ATPL exams?
The scenario that I have seen had an aussie pilot go overseas to get an ATPL in the US and then came back to Australia, sat the airlaw exam and got an aussie ATPL.
Having heard a rumour that Virgin Airlines frowned upon people who went to the US and bypassed the Aussie system said pilot then went to sit the 7 aussie subjects - failed one and consequently had his aussie ATPL pulled until he passed all 7 exams!
In regards to the question - Why would you resit the aussie ATPL exams?
The scenario that I have seen had an aussie pilot go overseas to get an ATPL in the US and then came back to Australia, sat the airlaw exam and got an aussie ATPL.
Having heard a rumour that Virgin Airlines frowned upon people who went to the US and bypassed the Aussie system said pilot then went to sit the 7 aussie subjects - failed one and consequently had his aussie ATPL pulled until he passed all 7 exams!
