Cessna Caravan ditches near Cairns
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You guys must have short memories! CYA Cessna 206 VH-STL crashed off Horn Island 12:38 AEST Friday 11 January 2002. Fatality - one. PIC: Zachary (Zack) Short. ATSB investigation usual ballsup. Probable: maintenance-related inflight engine failure while holding at low altitude pending clearing of rain over runway. Probable: PIC stalled out during unpowered glide ditch phase due error under stress or weather-related effects. Inquest now running hot - and heavy.
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Zack's Dad
I don't know if it will relieve any angst or not but I'd just thought you may like to know that the people who own/manage/Chief Pilot & even crew CYA at this time were not around when Zack flew for the company.
That is not said to belittle or negate any thoughts you may have on what happened.
It is unfortunate that your son never flew for the company in its hay day.
I guess it doesn't make it any easier but I can attest that it WAS ONCE a well respected, well managed and a well trained
operation that had a great deal of of tropical flying experience.
Sadly a few Managers and Chief Pilots have been through since then.
Regards
I don't know if it will relieve any angst or not but I'd just thought you may like to know that the people who own/manage/Chief Pilot & even crew CYA at this time were not around when Zack flew for the company.
That is not said to belittle or negate any thoughts you may have on what happened.
It is unfortunate that your son never flew for the company in its hay day.
I guess it doesn't make it any easier but I can attest that it WAS ONCE a well respected, well managed and a well trained
operation that had a great deal of of tropical flying experience.
Sadly a few Managers and Chief Pilots have been through since then.
Regards
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That is a fair point you make. I think Zack naively thought they were still a good outfit too when he joined them. After one engine failure he was beginning to worry though. Too late - they got him 4 days later with another one. The General Manager then scarpered within a few weeks of Zack's crash. But that man's bad karma will catch up with him. The new owner of CYA seems like a man of integrity. A TV documentary on the shonky operators in remote area charter GA in Australia would be timely at helping weed the rats out - the fatality/incident stats speak for themselves.
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Zack's Dad
Most likely though, an inexperienced young pilot who inadvertently got himself into weather which he should not have been in, with the all too common result of disorientation, leading to a spiral dive which was not recovered in time.
The weather was atrocious, and nobody should have been flying a single in those conditions.
I do feel very sorry for you and your loss. Zack was a good bloke. Unfortunately he got himself into a situation that he was ill-equipped to deal with.
Probable: maintenance-related inflight engine failure while holding at low altitude pending clearing of rain over runway. Probable: PIC stalled out during unpowered glide ditch phase due error under stress or weather-related effects.
The weather was atrocious, and nobody should have been flying a single in those conditions.
I do feel very sorry for you and your loss. Zack was a good bloke. Unfortunately he got himself into a situation that he was ill-equipped to deal with.
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Probably about the cost of a similar spec, age and hours usedy.
That Woomera ... I believe the cheapest option may be to retain the registration letters and stick onto a new 'Van!
This Woomera
That Woomera ... I believe the cheapest option may be to retain the registration letters and stick onto a new 'Van!
This Woomera
Last edited by Woomera; 16th Feb 2004 at 09:14.
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"Let's wait for the ATSB investigation"? What fine upstanding sentiments. With a little bit of luck most GA incidents and accident reports should be completed and published within two years, give or take six months or so - by which time people will have forgotten all about the accident and as it's so ancient no one will be interested, anyway.
In any case, by the time the legal eagles and top ATSB managers pore through the investigator's initial report, then twist and omit a few incriminating paragraphs, the report will come out quite bland and in the end it will be left to the reader to read between the lines and hopefully learn something of value from the accident.
ATSB can make all the excuses in the world for why final reports for light aircraft GA accidents take sometimes two years to be published. Even the preliminary reports which are so abbreviated as to be worthless often take months to surface. The Camden Duchess fatal accident is a case in point. Do any of Pprune's current readers remember that accident? Well, it happened one year ago this month and still nothing has filtered down through official channels.
Yet there is every reason to think that flying instructors who carry out multi-engine training, and students who hire instructors to teach them how to fly safely, could learn a lot from the circumstances surrounding that accident.
Regardless of the knockers of Pprune, there is often much more up-to-date reasonably accurate incident and accident reporting available on these pages than dribbles from ATSB.
In any case, by the time the legal eagles and top ATSB managers pore through the investigator's initial report, then twist and omit a few incriminating paragraphs, the report will come out quite bland and in the end it will be left to the reader to read between the lines and hopefully learn something of value from the accident.
ATSB can make all the excuses in the world for why final reports for light aircraft GA accidents take sometimes two years to be published. Even the preliminary reports which are so abbreviated as to be worthless often take months to surface. The Camden Duchess fatal accident is a case in point. Do any of Pprune's current readers remember that accident? Well, it happened one year ago this month and still nothing has filtered down through official channels.
Yet there is every reason to think that flying instructors who carry out multi-engine training, and students who hire instructors to teach them how to fly safely, could learn a lot from the circumstances surrounding that accident.
Regardless of the knockers of Pprune, there is often much more up-to-date reasonably accurate incident and accident reporting available on these pages than dribbles from ATSB.
Bugsmasherdriverandjediknite
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ATSB and CASA reports, sometimes are not a viable source of information anyway.
I once witnessed a crash by a pilot I knew. I knew all the reasons why it happened, when it happened and what happened afterwards. I wasn't interviewed by anyone. I was one of about six people within a hundred miles of the crash and the authorities were informed of this fact.
I also had photographic evidence before, during and after the accident.
About two years after the accident, whilst perusing the crash comics, I came apon a report with a rego I thought was awfully familier. after reading the report, I was astounded to remember witnessing the accident, and it wasn't even close to the report.
It had been covered up by the pilot to such an extent that the report didn't include any factual evidence at all other than the aircraft rego.
this pilot then went on to crash another aircraft in very similar circumstances twelve months later.
why bother spending tax payers money on a farcial investigation when no one learned anything at all and no regulartary action was ever taken and the idiot was allowed to go out and do the same thing again a year later?.
I once witnessed a crash by a pilot I knew. I knew all the reasons why it happened, when it happened and what happened afterwards. I wasn't interviewed by anyone. I was one of about six people within a hundred miles of the crash and the authorities were informed of this fact.
I also had photographic evidence before, during and after the accident.
About two years after the accident, whilst perusing the crash comics, I came apon a report with a rego I thought was awfully familier. after reading the report, I was astounded to remember witnessing the accident, and it wasn't even close to the report.
It had been covered up by the pilot to such an extent that the report didn't include any factual evidence at all other than the aircraft rego.
this pilot then went on to crash another aircraft in very similar circumstances twelve months later.
why bother spending tax payers money on a farcial investigation when no one learned anything at all and no regulartary action was ever taken and the idiot was allowed to go out and do the same thing again a year later?.
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As soon as the donk goes quiet, the insurance company ownes it. Just curious, did it flip and then end up on it's wheels, or did they some howkeep it up right? Gee, I hope the bar opened after that on the beach 
oh, that last post was definatly refering to the C208 on green island, not to be mistaken with a prevous discusion of a 206 above.
oh, that last post was definatly refering to the C208 on green island, not to be mistaken with a prevous discusion of a 206 above.
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Zack's dad, i knew both lyn and zack, it is a terrible loss.
i feel it is unfair to be suggesting that the previous GM was directly or indirectly responsible, his having resigned from an 80k plus a year job certainly does not obsolve him from answering questions in a court of law, so why did he then resign, i dont know for sure, he did not maintain the aircraft, or have any direct say in its maintenance, thats what LAMES are for.
What i am reasonably sure of is that this previous GM would not be happy about zacks death or would have done anything to make it happen.
I saw the wreck and in my opinion that engine was under power and the aircraft was at high speed and entered the water wing tip first, read from that what you will, the weather was as stated above, refer Observer 2.
i feel it is unfair to be suggesting that the previous GM was directly or indirectly responsible, his having resigned from an 80k plus a year job certainly does not obsolve him from answering questions in a court of law, so why did he then resign, i dont know for sure, he did not maintain the aircraft, or have any direct say in its maintenance, thats what LAMES are for.
What i am reasonably sure of is that this previous GM would not be happy about zacks death or would have done anything to make it happen.
I saw the wreck and in my opinion that engine was under power and the aircraft was at high speed and entered the water wing tip first, read from that what you will, the weather was as stated above, refer Observer 2.
There was no damage to the C208B Caravan at Badu. Engine change and flown out a few days later.
There appeared to be little damage to the C208 Caravan at Green Island, although the aircraft ended up virtually under water - I guess it landed at low water. I'm rather amazed it didn't flip over.
There appeared to be little damage to the C208 Caravan at Green Island, although the aircraft ended up virtually under water - I guess it landed at low water. I'm rather amazed it didn't flip over.
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The Big Secret
Okay, now lets get back to the matter at hand. What causes a modern turbine engine to lose power or flame out, during what we have to believe to be, an endorsement flight (2 POB, both pilots, no nav aid at Green Island). Now I am by no means a turbine guru, but I am assuming the following
1. Lack of fuel - Unlikely
2. Busted compressor blades - Maybe
3. Intentional shut down - Unlikely when 10nm out to sea
4. Some other weird sh1t - Maybe
5. Some other weird sh1t associated with an endorsement - More likely than "Maybe".
Now can someone tell me what weird sh1t can go wrong that would cause a permanent power loss, other than 1 to 3, that would be more likely during an endorsment flight.
1. Lack of fuel - Unlikely
2. Busted compressor blades - Maybe
3. Intentional shut down - Unlikely when 10nm out to sea
4. Some other weird sh1t - Maybe
5. Some other weird sh1t associated with an endorsement - More likely than "Maybe".
Now can someone tell me what weird sh1t can go wrong that would cause a permanent power loss, other than 1 to 3, that would be more likely during an endorsment flight.
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Gday all,
The story as told to me,(in point form only as I couldn't be bothered typing it all)
* Simulated pwr loss by moving Cond. lever
to Low Idle and Fx prop.
* Possibly went slightly past Low Idle detent and stopped Wf.
* Failed to notice flame out.
* Cruised around gliding practice etc.
* Unstowed Emergency Pwr Lever for practice G/A using said Lever.
* Smelled fuel due to increased Wf from unstowed Emerg. Pwr Lever and engine previously windmilling with Cond. Lever at Low Idle.
* Realised flame out so Ignition to ON and Starter to ON
* Apparently not a successful relight so set up for the ditch.
Lucky to get out of the ditching so lightly in my opinion. I always used to cringe at the thought of ditching a C208, long spindly legs and all!
As I say, story as told to me. Not first hand facts, just as I have heard it.
Cheers,
I'm gone!
Woomera has received information from the Captain of the above flight to the effect that
"The information is not accurate and is speculation"
and that no information on the event in this form has been provided directly to " I'm gone" or any other persons beyond that required by the ATSB and other persons approriate to the investigation from the pilot or operator.
We agree with the Captain;
"that I have no problem with discussion of the incident but for obvious reasons am unable to comment at this stage. I request that "I'm gone" confines his post to general issues and not post in a way that suggests "Factual material", particularly as he was not in any way involved, as your disclaimer says, posts may be made for illicit purposes or to elicit a response."
There will always be hearsay and and the Townsville refueller available to excite the imagination so lets not try and suggest or imply that it either is or has any foundation in facts.
I do not suggest that there was any necessarily any motivation on the part of "I'm gone" in his post beyond contributing to the thread from his personal perspective, just a plea to be very careful with what and how, what may be personally perceived to be the "facts", are portrayed.
Whatever the "facts" also have a thought for what the Captain may be going through.
Remember it may well be you one day.
The story as told to me,(in point form only as I couldn't be bothered typing it all)
* Simulated pwr loss by moving Cond. lever
to Low Idle and Fx prop.* Possibly went slightly past Low Idle detent and stopped Wf.
* Failed to notice flame out.
* Cruised around gliding practice etc.
* Unstowed Emergency Pwr Lever for practice G/A using said Lever.
* Smelled fuel due to increased Wf from unstowed Emerg. Pwr Lever and engine previously windmilling with Cond. Lever at Low Idle.
* Realised flame out so Ignition to ON and Starter to ON
* Apparently not a successful relight so set up for the ditch.
Lucky to get out of the ditching so lightly in my opinion. I always used to cringe at the thought of ditching a C208, long spindly legs and all!
As I say, story as told to me. Not first hand facts, just as I have heard it.
Cheers,
I'm gone!
Woomera has received information from the Captain of the above flight to the effect that
"The information is not accurate and is speculation"
and that no information on the event in this form has been provided directly to " I'm gone" or any other persons beyond that required by the ATSB and other persons approriate to the investigation from the pilot or operator.
We agree with the Captain;
"that I have no problem with discussion of the incident but for obvious reasons am unable to comment at this stage. I request that "I'm gone" confines his post to general issues and not post in a way that suggests "Factual material", particularly as he was not in any way involved, as your disclaimer says, posts may be made for illicit purposes or to elicit a response."
There will always be hearsay and and the Townsville refueller available to excite the imagination so lets not try and suggest or imply that it either is or has any foundation in facts.
I do not suggest that there was any necessarily any motivation on the part of "I'm gone" in his post beyond contributing to the thread from his personal perspective, just a plea to be very careful with what and how, what may be personally perceived to be the "facts", are portrayed.
Whatever the "facts" also have a thought for what the Captain may be going through.
Remember it may well be you one day.
Last edited by Woomera; 17th Feb 2004 at 08:37.
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To the mischievous statements by Left_Handed_Rockthrower re: crash of VH-STL. The conformation of the props clearly showed VH-STL entered the water unpowered or very low powered. Even ATSB state this in their Occurrence Brief. Every LAME who has seen the photos says exactly the same thing. Now why would Left_Handed_Rockthrower claim otherwise if he had seen the wreckage? Prop conformation was inconsistent with the engine control settings i.e. throttle setting (cruise), mixture (full rich), prop pitch (full fine), magnetos (both on). suggesting revs should have been at least 2200 rpm. With respect to the frozen instruments: manifold pressure showed zero, vacuum suction gauge showed zero, fuel flow gauge showed zero and tacho showed zero revs. In addition on master switch alt was off but batt was on, consistent with Zack setting up for a sea ditch but last minute use of radio for mayday. Even the mayday itself is consistent with Zack setting up for a ditch but then losing some reason. Remember: Aviate, Navigate, Communicate.
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Woomera and "the Captain"
I understand Woomera's edit to my post and have taken notice.
As I said at the end of the post, I make no claim that what I posted was factual information but merely what I was told.
It was by no means my intention to discredit "the Captain" or his actions, but merely to contribute to the forum with the information I had at hand, be it fact or otherwise.
I have NOT spoken to "the Captain" personally, therefore if "the Captain" says that the information in my post is incorrect then I accept that to be so.
Cheers,
I'm gone!
I understand Woomera's edit to my post and have taken notice.
As I said at the end of the post, I make no claim that what I posted was factual information but merely what I was told.
It was by no means my intention to discredit "the Captain" or his actions, but merely to contribute to the forum with the information I had at hand, be it fact or otherwise.
I have NOT spoken to "the Captain" personally, therefore if "the Captain" says that the information in my post is incorrect then I accept that to be so.
Cheers,
I'm gone!
Bugsmasherdriverandjediknite
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You people have no respect and carry on like a mob of drongo's.
Did any of you even think for a moment that the Townsville refueller might have real feelings.
Did any of you even think for a moment that the Townsville refueller might have real feelings.
and yes I know what it feels like, that's why "Edward Scissorhands" is my fave movie. 
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for starters Zacks Dad, the words "in my Opinion" in no way imply facts proven in court.
What has been proven in court, not what you suggest either.
Zack was a great guy, you mistake my intent.
I feel the previous GM has been your target, this again in my opinion, and CASA/ATSB as it would appear, tend to agree.
What has been proven in court, not what you suggest either.
Zack was a great guy, you mistake my intent.
I feel the previous GM has been your target, this again in my opinion, and CASA/ATSB as it would appear, tend to agree.
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It takes a lot for me to step up and voice my opinion, and now is the time. I am disgusted at the amount of bullsh*t that has already been spruked about this incident without anyone here knowing the facts!!
Anyone here comptemplating any sort of speculation and "It's just what I heard" sort of facts, you're no better than the professional source we call the media. If you know so much, why aren't you working for channel nine?? they always get the story straight - NOT!!
I'm gone - pull your f*cking head in mate, in your immortal words, "in point form only as I couldn't be bothered typing it all" (yeh, good one)-
*Do you personally know the pilots - I do
*Was one of the pilots living with you when it happened - he was with me
*Were you the first person called from one of the pilots after the incident - I was
*Did you spend a week with one of the pilots after they have just both stared death in the face and won and understand how they feel - I did
* Do you know what a C208 is and how it is operated - I do
*Do you know what you're talking about - NO!!
What's wrong with you man, why try and put a dampner on a fantastic outcome, visa vie, two fellow aviators are alive and well, to tell the tale on how they cheated death and what a god awful experience they just went through, and all you can do is try and big note yorself and point fingers on a subject you probably know nothing about by "presuming" what happened on that day. As you say, only what you heard, but if you wern't there, what right do you have to comment!
Anyone here comptemplating any sort of speculation and "It's just what I heard" sort of facts, you're no better than the professional source we call the media. If you know so much, why aren't you working for channel nine?? they always get the story straight - NOT!!
I'm gone - pull your f*cking head in mate, in your immortal words, "in point form only as I couldn't be bothered typing it all" (yeh, good one)-
*Do you personally know the pilots - I do
*Was one of the pilots living with you when it happened - he was with me
*Were you the first person called from one of the pilots after the incident - I was
*Did you spend a week with one of the pilots after they have just both stared death in the face and won and understand how they feel - I did
* Do you know what a C208 is and how it is operated - I do
*Do you know what you're talking about - NO!!
What's wrong with you man, why try and put a dampner on a fantastic outcome, visa vie, two fellow aviators are alive and well, to tell the tale on how they cheated death and what a god awful experience they just went through, and all you can do is try and big note yorself and point fingers on a subject you probably know nothing about by "presuming" what happened on that day. As you say, only what you heard, but if you wern't there, what right do you have to comment!