Massey training
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Massey training
Hello, just after some opinions regarding the perception of pilots who trained at Massey Uni from guys who work within the industry. I believe in the past there seems to be lots of animosity towards the guys who trained there. Is this due to inferrior training? bad attitudes of students? the school? Any comments?
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I am sorry to say to the above contributers that they are talking rubbish. I have had the experience of working along side these Massey trained people in a large Flight Training Establishment. They are highly skilled young pilots who are amazed as I am of their ill founded reputation. John Shutt.
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Unfortunately the commercially driven aim of being able to turn anyone, who pays the right amount of money, into a pilot does not work in reality.
As an ATC I have seen many of their students pass through the area on cross country flights. Some are very clued up on proceedures and airmanship and sound professional. However others, notably from Asian countries, leave much to be desired. At times these students have a instructor with them, yet sloppy R/T and procedures seem to be accepted as the norm, with little or no obvious input from the instructor. At times it seems that as long as the training establishment is getting the bucks that's all that counts.
This is my perception. Perhaps I'm totally wrong and would be glad for some constructive comment - hopefully from an instructor.
As an ATC I have seen many of their students pass through the area on cross country flights. Some are very clued up on proceedures and airmanship and sound professional. However others, notably from Asian countries, leave much to be desired. At times these students have a instructor with them, yet sloppy R/T and procedures seem to be accepted as the norm, with little or no obvious input from the instructor. At times it seems that as long as the training establishment is getting the bucks that's all that counts.
This is my perception. Perhaps I'm totally wrong and would be glad for some constructive comment - hopefully from an instructor.
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I must agree Late landing, ive met about 4 good guys from massey who are pretty switched on as for the rest.... watched the 3 aircraft i suspect you are talking about today-typical example.ist one was lucky it didnt crash.You must have been the controller i saw get out his bino's in a hurry!.As an insturctor i was amazed to watch them approach 20-30 knots too fast and not be able to make correct decisions whether or not there might have been a tail wind component?.Their training cannot be rushed which i suspect is the case, since they are here for so long before jumping into their airbuses/boeings...
Im sure it would be hard for the rest of us to fly in china however thats no excuse to lower standards!
Im sure it would be hard for the rest of us to fly in china however thats no excuse to lower standards!
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My experience working with a number of graduates is similar to Johnshuts - the massey trained instructors are very capable with a positive and mature attitude. I can't say the same of the handful of new CPL / MEIR pilots I saw. They seemed to have had unrealistic expectations of their value to aviation poured into them and it showed in their rush to leave the grubby world of GA. Not what the operator wanted to see at all.
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Latelanding, I am an instructor, and I hold ratings from the most simple of gliders up to the 737/300. and I have had experience working with the the people the unifomed are rubbishing and as yet I have not come across a poor performer.[instructing wise] AS for the large institutions making the big bucks dont believe it I am still waiting for my promised November pay cheque!
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split flap, max rate are you opinions from actual experiences with massey trained pilots?
I agree with the comments regarding the big school and some poor examples of airmanship etc but isnt this typical of any big school dealing with a wide range of students from foreign contracts to the average cpl meir student not just from massey in particular?
The reason i have asked these questions is to gain an understanding as to whether this so call reputation is founded from actual incidents/experiances or just rumors and a general dislike as the students are undergoing a different training syllabis (sp??) to the average course.
I agree with the comments regarding the big school and some poor examples of airmanship etc but isnt this typical of any big school dealing with a wide range of students from foreign contracts to the average cpl meir student not just from massey in particular?
The reason i have asked these questions is to gain an understanding as to whether this so call reputation is founded from actual incidents/experiances or just rumors and a general dislike as the students are undergoing a different training syllabis (sp??) to the average course.
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weatools,
Perhaps I have just struck a couple of bad ones, but all of the massey pilots that I have flown with in light aircraft had handling skills that made me want to be sick. When my turn came to have a say with regards to recruiting there CV's would instantly go in the bin. Just my opinion of course, from other opinions here, there seem to be good ones, perhaps I was unlucky.
Perhaps I have just struck a couple of bad ones, but all of the massey pilots that I have flown with in light aircraft had handling skills that made me want to be sick. When my turn came to have a say with regards to recruiting there CV's would instantly go in the bin. Just my opinion of course, from other opinions here, there seem to be good ones, perhaps I was unlucky.
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I've met students from a large N.I. flight school using GPS for their CPL X/Cs around the S.I., then getting lost coming into the CH CTR?? These same people will be training on 737s sometime later this year back in the motherland. Yikes!!
In Massey's first few years of aviation training, there was a lot of scepticism in the NZ industry. Part of it fueled by the odd incident of students getting lost on Xcountries, part of it fueled by the perceived ******-factor, ie. wearing uniform and epauletes. The aircraft stood out because they had "Massey" callsigns, eg "Massey 258". This means that when any mistakes are made, it is obvious who the operator is.
I have personal experience with 2 Massey students. One seemed to be a good pilot who is now an FO with Easterns, the other was a bit of a no-hoper who could afford the training (around $50,000 at the time) but didn't seem to have any real drive to be a professional pilot. For the 2 years it took to get my CPL and a job, he moped around doing nothing. Last I heard he was still unemployed. Probably didn't help that he wouldn't accept a job on a single (even if the company had twin turbines with a reasonable rate of progression onto them).
That's obviously not a big enough sample to show anything except that, like all flying schools, it churns out some gravel along with the gold.
I have personal experience with 2 Massey students. One seemed to be a good pilot who is now an FO with Easterns, the other was a bit of a no-hoper who could afford the training (around $50,000 at the time) but didn't seem to have any real drive to be a professional pilot. For the 2 years it took to get my CPL and a job, he moped around doing nothing. Last I heard he was still unemployed. Probably didn't help that he wouldn't accept a job on a single (even if the company had twin turbines with a reasonable rate of progression onto them).
That's obviously not a big enough sample to show anything except that, like all flying schools, it churns out some gravel along with the gold.
unifomed
unifomed - adj. An individual raised to a higher level of aeronautical worthyness by virtue ofthe fact that they paid a great amount of money to attend university. from Aramaic fome - to pleasure oneself without partner.
They are an easy target.
As is anyone associated with an organisation.
If a Pilot in a plane with no distinguishable marks or easily identified company has an incident, one probably makes a comment which would start.....
"the other day I saw this plonker come in to land and.........."
as apposed to.........
"the other day this idoit from (INSERT COMPANY HERE) came in to land and........."
and the response is
"typical, those guys are shockers...I remember another one...."
Its the classic Band-Camp mentality.
As for Massey being better or worse, I think the whole lot are shockers. GA in general needs to wake up and start producing a better Pilot regardless of who they trained with or gained experience with. Stop chasing dreams of jets and grow a career instilling good piloting skills and attributes at each stage of your progression.
As is anyone associated with an organisation.
If a Pilot in a plane with no distinguishable marks or easily identified company has an incident, one probably makes a comment which would start.....
"the other day I saw this plonker come in to land and.........."
as apposed to.........
"the other day this idoit from (INSERT COMPANY HERE) came in to land and........."
and the response is
"typical, those guys are shockers...I remember another one...."
Its the classic Band-Camp mentality.
As for Massey being better or worse, I think the whole lot are shockers. GA in general needs to wake up and start producing a better Pilot regardless of who they trained with or gained experience with. Stop chasing dreams of jets and grow a career instilling good piloting skills and attributes at each stage of your progression.
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Not trying to insult those that work or train at Massey...........BUT...........
From my experiences, personal, flying and ATC I can tell you that there training is a little poor.
Most, not all have a lack of airmanship which shows up when they enter busy control zones or in general conversiontion with other pilots.
My opinion and this is just mine.
Train somewhere where you can get your qualifications within 18 months - 2 years get into the industry and start getting experience. If the degree is the draw card for you then study via corespondense while you work through GA because your going to have plenty of spare time.
Before I get hammered for my comments remember, I am not having ago at these students or instructors personally I am just simply stating what of have seen.
splat
From my experiences, personal, flying and ATC I can tell you that there training is a little poor.
Most, not all have a lack of airmanship which shows up when they enter busy control zones or in general conversiontion with other pilots.
My opinion and this is just mine.
Train somewhere where you can get your qualifications within 18 months - 2 years get into the industry and start getting experience. If the degree is the draw card for you then study via corespondense while you work through GA because your going to have plenty of spare time.
Before I get hammered for my comments remember, I am not having ago at these students or instructors personally I am just simply stating what of have seen.
splat
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Have been following this thread and cant believe the crap I am reading. My two cents worth....
What does it really matter where someone gets their licence, purely because that is all it is, getting a licence.
Then its a matter of getting off ones arse, going out into the big bad world and rubbing shoulders with all the other uglies out there, finding that crucial first job, and then and only then... do you actually begin to learn how to operate in the aviation world. The licence is only the prerequisite to reach this point. Thats it.
What are some of you people trying to imply? That whatever organisation/operation you use to obtain the neccessary document, is then going to influence someone to such extent that they will forever and a day be a xxxxx student. Get real.
How much do you think someone can learn in 150 to 200 odd hours anyway. Its not designed to set the student up for the rest of his/her career, its purely the basis to get on ones way. Most instructors these days are not career instructors, they are inexperienced themselves, just using insructing as a stepping stone and move on asap. Granted, some are more concientious than others, and do actually try to instill as much of the realities in the short time available. One could take a utopian view that larger training institutions have the financial fortitude to attract training staff who consider training aviation in a more career minded fashion, as opposed to a small aero club /GA operation. Maybe.
Unfortunately, the marketing of some training organisations is such that they fool some of the more susceptible into believing that what they are doing is unique and special in some way, and that its is somehow going to magically open doors for them. Unfortunately, when it comes time for such types to venture forth with a higher than thou attitude, it furthers the myth of "another xxx student" On the other hand, there are those more a more realistic viewpoint and go in with their eyes wide open. As someone said previously, the gravel with the gold, and that my friends is absolutely evrywhere.
As for a previous poster that mentioned when seeing CV's on his desk from applicants that were trained at xxxx, he immediatly bins them. Shallow my boy, very very shallow.
I am an ex Massey student, never really considered it as significant. It is simply where I trained to get my licence. I was aware when I signed on that there was some "anti" myths being perpetuated. That to me was understandable. When it started, Massey was a very new way of doing things. Would I do it again? Yes, if it was the same environment it was when I went through. When I sat my CPL flight test, as the FTO climbed out of the a/c, he said and I quote "there you go boy, you now have a licence to go and learn".
Very wise words that stuck with me.
I am now a Captain with a Middle East flag carrier airline. I have done the hard graft to get here. I survived, some around me unfortunately didn't. Massey did me no harm. Lost contact with alot of my colleague's, but some I am aware of are doing very well all around the world - and I can assure you, they do not have their heads up their arses!
Some of you need to stop looking over your shoulder, and just get on with it.
What does it really matter where someone gets their licence, purely because that is all it is, getting a licence.
Then its a matter of getting off ones arse, going out into the big bad world and rubbing shoulders with all the other uglies out there, finding that crucial first job, and then and only then... do you actually begin to learn how to operate in the aviation world. The licence is only the prerequisite to reach this point. Thats it.
What are some of you people trying to imply? That whatever organisation/operation you use to obtain the neccessary document, is then going to influence someone to such extent that they will forever and a day be a xxxxx student. Get real.
How much do you think someone can learn in 150 to 200 odd hours anyway. Its not designed to set the student up for the rest of his/her career, its purely the basis to get on ones way. Most instructors these days are not career instructors, they are inexperienced themselves, just using insructing as a stepping stone and move on asap. Granted, some are more concientious than others, and do actually try to instill as much of the realities in the short time available. One could take a utopian view that larger training institutions have the financial fortitude to attract training staff who consider training aviation in a more career minded fashion, as opposed to a small aero club /GA operation. Maybe.
Unfortunately, the marketing of some training organisations is such that they fool some of the more susceptible into believing that what they are doing is unique and special in some way, and that its is somehow going to magically open doors for them. Unfortunately, when it comes time for such types to venture forth with a higher than thou attitude, it furthers the myth of "another xxx student" On the other hand, there are those more a more realistic viewpoint and go in with their eyes wide open. As someone said previously, the gravel with the gold, and that my friends is absolutely evrywhere.
As for a previous poster that mentioned when seeing CV's on his desk from applicants that were trained at xxxx, he immediatly bins them. Shallow my boy, very very shallow.
I am an ex Massey student, never really considered it as significant. It is simply where I trained to get my licence. I was aware when I signed on that there was some "anti" myths being perpetuated. That to me was understandable. When it started, Massey was a very new way of doing things. Would I do it again? Yes, if it was the same environment it was when I went through. When I sat my CPL flight test, as the FTO climbed out of the a/c, he said and I quote "there you go boy, you now have a licence to go and learn".
Very wise words that stuck with me.
I am now a Captain with a Middle East flag carrier airline. I have done the hard graft to get here. I survived, some around me unfortunately didn't. Massey did me no harm. Lost contact with alot of my colleague's, but some I am aware of are doing very well all around the world - and I can assure you, they do not have their heads up their arses!
Some of you need to stop looking over your shoulder, and just get on with it.
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Reality Check...
Massey product is just a ticket to learn, as with all low and high end aviation courses. They do not advertise "Do our course and you will be God's gift to aviation".
Onto my fourth country now (including Un-Zud) in the aviation industry and very confident that the product from Massey and similar is of a respectable International standard.
Perhaps a little rivalry from those that have and those that wanted to is healthy for a bit of banter, but make sure you have a sound base for slagging off another institute that has produced and continues to produce respectable operatives in the aviation industry.
WANDERINABOUT
I think I have spoken to you on frequency over this way...apart from your weird accent you have proved that a bit a of Massey in your blood hasn't done you any harm!
SPLAT
You obviously haven't been exposed to many environments that operate basic flying training schools have you? Perhaps a day at Bankstown will with all the "Baby Billy Bugsmashers" will open your eyes to the reality of the training world.
NIKE
Perhaps its time for you to go back to band camp, did you get scrubbed at Massey????
Onto my fourth country now (including Un-Zud) in the aviation industry and very confident that the product from Massey and similar is of a respectable International standard.
Perhaps a little rivalry from those that have and those that wanted to is healthy for a bit of banter, but make sure you have a sound base for slagging off another institute that has produced and continues to produce respectable operatives in the aviation industry.
WANDERINABOUT
I think I have spoken to you on frequency over this way...apart from your weird accent you have proved that a bit a of Massey in your blood hasn't done you any harm!
SPLAT
You obviously haven't been exposed to many environments that operate basic flying training schools have you? Perhaps a day at Bankstown will with all the "Baby Billy Bugsmashers" will open your eyes to the reality of the training world.
NIKE
Perhaps its time for you to go back to band camp, did you get scrubbed at Massey????
Fox3snapshot
In reading your history its seems you have a propensity for shooting from the hip standing six feet away and hit the dirt 3 feet in front of your target.
Have another read.
You have agreed with my sentiments. That indeed we are given a licence to learn and with that in mind we must seek out opportunities to gain experience. I have no ill with Massey, nor any other Organisation.
Good luck in your fourth country.
In reading your history its seems you have a propensity for shooting from the hip standing six feet away and hit the dirt 3 feet in front of your target.
Have another read.
You have agreed with my sentiments. That indeed we are given a licence to learn and with that in mind we must seek out opportunities to gain experience. I have no ill with Massey, nor any other Organisation.
Good luck in your fourth country.