Air Ngukurr chief pilot in court
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Very interesting comments ANTI.
I will be very very very careful what I say here as I do not want to point the finger.
Just because the legal system says that things didn't happen doesn't mean they didn't happen. The past is the past and I believe a certain person has learnt his lesson and raised the bar to a very good level.
Look at all the old posts - ANTI wake up I agree that there is nothing worse than Bullsh*t being spread but when the MAJORITY is talking about the same rumors then? Havachat to Sheepie... Oh and BTW I probably know alot more than most of you think.
Problem with the legal system is that he who has the most money wins.
I say a big pat on the back for people having the balls to stand up for what they believe in. Hey why not its happened to me.
I will be very very very careful what I say here as I do not want to point the finger.
Just because the legal system says that things didn't happen doesn't mean they didn't happen. The past is the past and I believe a certain person has learnt his lesson and raised the bar to a very good level.
Look at all the old posts - ANTI wake up I agree that there is nothing worse than Bullsh*t being spread but when the MAJORITY is talking about the same rumors then? Havachat to Sheepie... Oh and BTW I probably know alot more than most of you think.
Problem with the legal system is that he who has the most money wins.
I say a big pat on the back for people having the balls to stand up for what they believe in. Hey why not its happened to me.
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Not exactly, pharcanell. The NT news court reporter passed on that Ben was a less credible witness than Hone, in the eyes of the magistrate, due to his performance in the witness box.
I think everyone involved learned a lesson on this one.
If only Ben, immediately after having the problem, and foreseeing that someday, something might be made out of it, sat down and wrote out the details while it was fresh in his memory. Like that night. Photocopy them, put the notes in an envelope, keep one copy for yourself, and send the other copy by post to your dad or uncle or someone, with instructions NOT TO OPEN.
You can then refer to your 'contemporaneous notes' in a courtroom setting. Referring to your contemporaneous note whilst in the witness box, beats your word against his word.
I think everyone involved learned a lesson on this one.
If only Ben, immediately after having the problem, and foreseeing that someday, something might be made out of it, sat down and wrote out the details while it was fresh in his memory. Like that night. Photocopy them, put the notes in an envelope, keep one copy for yourself, and send the other copy by post to your dad or uncle or someone, with instructions NOT TO OPEN.
You can then refer to your 'contemporaneous notes' in a courtroom setting. Referring to your contemporaneous note whilst in the witness box, beats your word against his word.
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ITCZ, good advice. Also, if you get anywhere near anything that might one day get into court, take notes about it in an exercise book. The reason for being a bit over diligent about maintaining records is that at the time you just won't be able to tell at what point you walked into the circus tent.
The test of how thoroughly you do this is that you finish each year with a book containing quite a few full pages.
Another tip - if you are going to court as a witness don't go without legal advice on what to expect and what to say. This advice should include a practice run on what to expect / how to behave when someone's barrister cross examines you.
Sweet dreams Honi
!
Incidently ITCZ, do you know where I can get a copy of nowie "How to be an Arnhemland Pailote....."
The test of how thoroughly you do this is that you finish each year with a book containing quite a few full pages.
Another tip - if you are going to court as a witness don't go without legal advice on what to expect and what to say. This advice should include a practice run on what to expect / how to behave when someone's barrister cross examines you.
Sweet dreams Honi
!Incidently ITCZ, do you know where I can get a copy of nowie "How to be an Arnhemland Pailote....."
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Well having lsiened and watched over the last few days I am amazed at how the truth can be distorted by the rambling of the uninformed.
Even the court reporter can't remember what was said. The Chief Pilot was not on trial. HE was. Miss Behaviour can't get his facts right.
Props talks about RPC and we all know that is a crock! Does not exist. Air Ngukurr has an AOC and operates within that AOC. I have never had a problem with that. The new CP seems to know whats happening. Now there is a base at Darwin, less problems. Maybe the pilots are closer to the stars now?
Miss B if all you can do is repeat what some nong has written then whats the point.
The Magistrate said that Ben V "embellished" his story. Being too polite to say he was lying! Magistrate said Hone was a credible and reliable witness. Threw the charges out. Just goes to show that if you try and concoct a story just to get even with the Boss you won't succeed. CASA also has a whole lot of egg on it;s face. Not the guys from Darwin though. They don't seem to have the same desire to nail HE as does Haslam and his thugs in the investigation dept. Thats what you get when ex coppers get on the job. Statements that don't hold up - waste of time and money and those that support Vandenberg must be wondering how they will fare now.
Heard a deep voice muttering " now for an action against the liars to recover some cost" Should be interesting to see the outcome of that.
Anyway the case is over. HE has be found innocent of the charges and will no doubt be very happy with that after putting up with the bull**** that has been about over the last few months. I look forward to hearing him on 126.8 again soon.
Safe and happy flying Hone.
To the others who have prattled their lies - look out.
Even the court reporter can't remember what was said. The Chief Pilot was not on trial. HE was. Miss Behaviour can't get his facts right.
Props talks about RPC and we all know that is a crock! Does not exist. Air Ngukurr has an AOC and operates within that AOC. I have never had a problem with that. The new CP seems to know whats happening. Now there is a base at Darwin, less problems. Maybe the pilots are closer to the stars now?
Miss B if all you can do is repeat what some nong has written then whats the point.
The Magistrate said that Ben V "embellished" his story. Being too polite to say he was lying! Magistrate said Hone was a credible and reliable witness. Threw the charges out. Just goes to show that if you try and concoct a story just to get even with the Boss you won't succeed. CASA also has a whole lot of egg on it;s face. Not the guys from Darwin though. They don't seem to have the same desire to nail HE as does Haslam and his thugs in the investigation dept. Thats what you get when ex coppers get on the job. Statements that don't hold up - waste of time and money and those that support Vandenberg must be wondering how they will fare now.
Heard a deep voice muttering " now for an action against the liars to recover some cost" Should be interesting to see the outcome of that.
Anyway the case is over. HE has be found innocent of the charges and will no doubt be very happy with that after putting up with the bull**** that has been about over the last few months. I look forward to hearing him on 126.8 again soon.
Safe and happy flying Hone.
To the others who have prattled their lies - look out.
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Dear readers...
Never make the mistake of thinking that a win in court (or an acquittal) has anything to do with anything except legal process.
It has nothing to do with who is virtuous, who is a liar, who did the right thing, who did the wrong thing.
In short, don't fool yourself that a legal victory = a moral victory.
-------------------
However, I commend Hiball on his getting in here and putting us all right on what a bunch of wallies we all are. "We" being the many different pilots of all types from all over the country who have dealt with H.E over the years that have all come to the same conclusion.
I am sure H.E. will thank you for your support.
You are a good mate.
A shortsighted, undiscriminating, and equally simpleminded mate perhaps, but what the hell, a good mate.
Onya.
Never make the mistake of thinking that a win in court (or an acquittal) has anything to do with anything except legal process.
It has nothing to do with who is virtuous, who is a liar, who did the right thing, who did the wrong thing.
In short, don't fool yourself that a legal victory = a moral victory.
-------------------
However, I commend Hiball on his getting in here and putting us all right on what a bunch of wallies we all are. "We" being the many different pilots of all types from all over the country who have dealt with H.E over the years that have all come to the same conclusion.
I am sure H.E. will thank you for your support.
You are a good mate.
A shortsighted, undiscriminating, and equally simpleminded mate perhaps, but what the hell, a good mate.
Onya.
Last edited by ITCZ; 6th Sep 2003 at 15:49.
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Reading these posts and having knowledge of some of the characters involved including the legal types, it seems to reinforce what many of us have known for years through bitter experience.
That is firstly you will only come to grief if you involve CASA with any chief pilot problem. CASA leaks like a sieve. Secondly the lawyers for the other side will tear you to pieces in court regardless of your integrity. Unless you have a better lawyer of course - but that costs plenty.
Lastly, when inevitably your name gets around that you are the bunny that tries to right aviation wrongs, you may as well take up taxi driving because sure as hell you won't get any more job interviews in GA. Airlines maybe - but not in GA. Life was not meant to be easy for honest airmen - only the shonks.
That is firstly you will only come to grief if you involve CASA with any chief pilot problem. CASA leaks like a sieve. Secondly the lawyers for the other side will tear you to pieces in court regardless of your integrity. Unless you have a better lawyer of course - but that costs plenty.
Lastly, when inevitably your name gets around that you are the bunny that tries to right aviation wrongs, you may as well take up taxi driving because sure as hell you won't get any more job interviews in GA. Airlines maybe - but not in GA. Life was not meant to be easy for honest airmen - only the shonks.
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So, R. v Honkie is over but there still remains the May 8th CASA decision to get rid of Honk’s ATPL and CPL. On 26th June the AAT stayed this CASA decision until after the criminal case was over, and until a date before 30th November.
This means that Honk’s next visit to the Beak will be at the end of the current stay period, when he tries to persuade the AAT to overturn the CASA decision. This is, I believe, called “judicial review of administrative action”.
At the stay hearing in June, Tribunal Senior Member KL Beddoe made, among others, the following findings of “fact”:
Quote-
(e) Air Ngukurr provides passenger and cargo flights to and from Ngukurr where, for approximately six months of the year, the roads surrounding Ngukurr are flooded and the area is virtually isolated because of flood water leaving air transport as the only viable transport facility. It employs thirty people and provides an essential service to the local community.
(f) Air Ngukurr is associated with the Yugul Mangi Community Government Council and an Assistant Councillor of that Council and Director of Air Ngujurr has sworn that, although the applicant is of Maori heritage, he has a close relationship with the local people; works well with the people and the Directors of Air Ngukurr; is important to both the company and the community; and speaks, interacts easily with the Aboriginal clans; and would be difficult to replace.
(q) The company currently employs the applicant on non-pilot duties but says it will not be able to afford this beyond the end of July 2003 and will need to dismiss the applicant from employment if he is still unable to do commercial pilot flying.
(s) The applicant asserts that his family will suffer financial hardship if the company terminates his employment and he loses $60,000 salary with no prospects of alternative employment
Tribunal Senior Member KL Beddoe went on to describe some legal precedents for inclusion of issues into his decision making process. Two of these issues are; air safety, and the applicant’s (Honk’s) prospect of success in the eventual review hearing at the end of any stay period. Beddoe dealt extensively with these two in his determination, and these two plus the fact that Honk’s criminal trial was then pending, were the main reasons for a stay being granted.
The third issue is the imposition of any hardship to the applicant, Air Ngukurr, and the Ngukurr community, caused by CASA’s cancellation of Honk’s licenses. The hardship-related facts that he goes on to describe as relevant, but not crucial, to his decision to allow the applicant to retain his ATPL / CPL until the eventual review, are:
Quote-
(b) the applicant is the controlling mind of the company in air operations - the respondent asserts he is the defacto Chief Pilot - with likely detrimental consequences for the company if it is forced to dismiss him as an employee;
(c) the applicant and his family are likely to suffer short-term financial hardship if he is dismissed by the company at the end of July;
(i) in particular, I have taken into account the interest of the parties, the company and the Yugal Community. The community has a particular interest in the company continuing to provide air-services to the community.
Viewers may now reach for their tissues.
Note that these issues were considered in June only in relation to a decision to defer CASA’s cancellation of the licenses, and not to review the cancellation itself, which is next. What interests me is……will the AAT also consider the same facts and give the same weight to hardship, in the forthcoming review hearing as it did in the June stay hearing ?
Creampuff ! You’re a legal type - what does Natural Law and AAT procedure say about this ?
Because…….while the above factual findings and weighting may have seemed reasonable to Tribunal Senior Member KL Beddoe in Brisbane, most of us with red Ngukurr dust on our boots know otherwise. These “facts” would have first appeared at the AAT in the affidavits of Andrew Robertson, Lyn Mott, and other luminaries.
To quote again;
Quote-
Air Ngukurr…… provides an essential service to the local community;
(Honi).. would be difficult to replace ;
… with likely detrimental consequences for the company if it is forced to dismiss him as an employee;
I could go on but just read the paragraphs again…some of these “facts” would verge on perjury in a court. The true fact is that the entire gang could be deported to their country of origin, with the money they have made from Ngukurr, and no one would be disadvantaged for more than half a day !
Except of course for a collection of Ngukurr clan leaders, some of whom are prone to providing affidavits to AAT hearings, and whom would need at least a couple of days to sort out favourable financial arrangements with any new arrivals who replaced the Kiwi Clan…
So, Creamy; other issues will be considered in the review hearing later this year, but considering hardship alone, if it is an issue, will the AAT be able to cross examine witnesses who present the same dubious “facts”, and examine any supporting documents ?
Whether CASA can find any witnesses/evidence of it’s own to rebut any claims of terrible hardship for both Honi and Ngukurr is another question.
The regular Honi-antics would actually be not too out of place in Kingsford-Smith’s era, however passengers are not paying for the Southern Cross and CASA thinks that era is in the past and that what is regularly happening has no place in the NT of the twenty first century (there actually is such a thing).
This means that Honk’s next visit to the Beak will be at the end of the current stay period, when he tries to persuade the AAT to overturn the CASA decision. This is, I believe, called “judicial review of administrative action”.
At the stay hearing in June, Tribunal Senior Member KL Beddoe made, among others, the following findings of “fact”:
Quote-
(e) Air Ngukurr provides passenger and cargo flights to and from Ngukurr where, for approximately six months of the year, the roads surrounding Ngukurr are flooded and the area is virtually isolated because of flood water leaving air transport as the only viable transport facility. It employs thirty people and provides an essential service to the local community.
(f) Air Ngukurr is associated with the Yugul Mangi Community Government Council and an Assistant Councillor of that Council and Director of Air Ngujurr has sworn that, although the applicant is of Maori heritage, he has a close relationship with the local people; works well with the people and the Directors of Air Ngukurr; is important to both the company and the community; and speaks, interacts easily with the Aboriginal clans; and would be difficult to replace.
(q) The company currently employs the applicant on non-pilot duties but says it will not be able to afford this beyond the end of July 2003 and will need to dismiss the applicant from employment if he is still unable to do commercial pilot flying.
(s) The applicant asserts that his family will suffer financial hardship if the company terminates his employment and he loses $60,000 salary with no prospects of alternative employment
Tribunal Senior Member KL Beddoe went on to describe some legal precedents for inclusion of issues into his decision making process. Two of these issues are; air safety, and the applicant’s (Honk’s) prospect of success in the eventual review hearing at the end of any stay period. Beddoe dealt extensively with these two in his determination, and these two plus the fact that Honk’s criminal trial was then pending, were the main reasons for a stay being granted.
The third issue is the imposition of any hardship to the applicant, Air Ngukurr, and the Ngukurr community, caused by CASA’s cancellation of Honk’s licenses. The hardship-related facts that he goes on to describe as relevant, but not crucial, to his decision to allow the applicant to retain his ATPL / CPL until the eventual review, are:
Quote-
(b) the applicant is the controlling mind of the company in air operations - the respondent asserts he is the defacto Chief Pilot - with likely detrimental consequences for the company if it is forced to dismiss him as an employee;
(c) the applicant and his family are likely to suffer short-term financial hardship if he is dismissed by the company at the end of July;
(i) in particular, I have taken into account the interest of the parties, the company and the Yugal Community. The community has a particular interest in the company continuing to provide air-services to the community.
Viewers may now reach for their tissues.
Note that these issues were considered in June only in relation to a decision to defer CASA’s cancellation of the licenses, and not to review the cancellation itself, which is next. What interests me is……will the AAT also consider the same facts and give the same weight to hardship, in the forthcoming review hearing as it did in the June stay hearing ?
Creampuff ! You’re a legal type - what does Natural Law and AAT procedure say about this ?
Because…….while the above factual findings and weighting may have seemed reasonable to Tribunal Senior Member KL Beddoe in Brisbane, most of us with red Ngukurr dust on our boots know otherwise. These “facts” would have first appeared at the AAT in the affidavits of Andrew Robertson, Lyn Mott, and other luminaries.
To quote again;
Quote-
Air Ngukurr…… provides an essential service to the local community;
(Honi).. would be difficult to replace ;
… with likely detrimental consequences for the company if it is forced to dismiss him as an employee;
I could go on but just read the paragraphs again…some of these “facts” would verge on perjury in a court. The true fact is that the entire gang could be deported to their country of origin, with the money they have made from Ngukurr, and no one would be disadvantaged for more than half a day !
Except of course for a collection of Ngukurr clan leaders, some of whom are prone to providing affidavits to AAT hearings, and whom would need at least a couple of days to sort out favourable financial arrangements with any new arrivals who replaced the Kiwi Clan…
So, Creamy; other issues will be considered in the review hearing later this year, but considering hardship alone, if it is an issue, will the AAT be able to cross examine witnesses who present the same dubious “facts”, and examine any supporting documents ?
Whether CASA can find any witnesses/evidence of it’s own to rebut any claims of terrible hardship for both Honi and Ngukurr is another question.
The regular Honi-antics would actually be not too out of place in Kingsford-Smith’s era, however passengers are not paying for the Southern Cross and CASA thinks that era is in the past and that what is regularly happening has no place in the NT of the twenty first century (there actually is such a thing).
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Nearly dozed off reading the Rorksmate saga. All very well but the fact of the matter is (unless I am mistaken) you weren't at the hearing. Langmead would have had another field day as the "facts and cricumstances" we all know come from the whingers. CASA even was referered to in the resaons as relying on rumour and innuendo.
For goodness sakes is that how we want the regulator to act? How would you feel Rorky if all of sudden sonme storie appeared about those few incidents that occured involving you but you thought no one knew. Then the man from CASA knocks on yours and everyone elses door and says " I am from CASA I'm here to help you". Bet you wouldn't be so cocky then!! And it would be you that was under the microscope and getting a show cause. Not so good then I bet.
Let the matter be determined on the facts and the law. That's fine but cut the bull****. None of the facts the CASA came up with have ended in a successful prosecution. That has to say something. I woul dbe happy to go back with the Honk. At least you know where you are. Jeez I hope he blows the twerps out of the water and sues their butts off for cauing such grief.
You are dead right Menen, the bunnys won't get a job in GA again, certainly not if I have a say, and I do!! Beware.
cheers. 
For goodness sakes is that how we want the regulator to act? How would you feel Rorky if all of sudden sonme storie appeared about those few incidents that occured involving you but you thought no one knew. Then the man from CASA knocks on yours and everyone elses door and says " I am from CASA I'm here to help you". Bet you wouldn't be so cocky then!! And it would be you that was under the microscope and getting a show cause. Not so good then I bet.
Let the matter be determined on the facts and the law. That's fine but cut the bull****. None of the facts the CASA came up with have ended in a successful prosecution. That has to say something. I woul dbe happy to go back with the Honk. At least you know where you are. Jeez I hope he blows the twerps out of the water and sues their butts off for cauing such grief.
You are dead right Menen, the bunnys won't get a job in GA again, certainly not if I have a say, and I do!! Beware.
cheers.
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It cracks me up how grumpy these little children get when some people actually have the audacity to not to believe in there little fairytales anymore!
tsk , tsk , tsk
Cant wait to hear some more lies kids
Go on, give us another one.
tsk , tsk , tsk
Cant wait to hear some more lies kids
Go on, give us another one.
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I geuss what I was trying to say in my earlier post was that in this case I believe the leopard has changed his spots.
The point here is that we all know what really went on in the past - oh yes there are alot of true stories on prune the problem is you CAN'T prove it. The court decision shows that.
As an operator it is both comforting and frustrating to see that not really alot happens.
Lets just hope that Ngu continues to move forward yes the new CP does seem good.
Mind you I am still wondering about other matters...
The point here is that we all know what really went on in the past - oh yes there are alot of true stories on prune the problem is you CAN'T prove it. The court decision shows that.
As an operator it is both comforting and frustrating to see that not really alot happens.
Lets just hope that Ngu continues to move forward yes the new CP does seem good.
Mind you I am still wondering about other matters...
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Hey Anti,
There is a difference in telling lies, and not having the evidence to get something through court. Or do you think that criminals never walk free and that there there are not inocent people found gulty? If this topic is so close to you that it takes away the ability for you to write something constructive then I sugest you let it glide. Little kiddies hey....you out-of-touch, has-been, pathetic didn't make it to where you wanted to go old fart.
(just taking a punt
)
There is a difference in telling lies, and not having the evidence to get something through court. Or do you think that criminals never walk free and that there there are not inocent people found gulty? If this topic is so close to you that it takes away the ability for you to write something constructive then I sugest you let it glide. Little kiddies hey....you out-of-touch, has-been, pathetic didn't make it to where you wanted to go old fart.
(just taking a punt
)
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Hiball, some Ngukurr dust on your boots too I think.
There are two separate events - Honk’s criminal trial where the standard of evidence was not sufficient to convict, and the earlier disapproval of Honk as Air Ngukurr chief pilot where the grounds CASA used included rumours from Pprune !
The standard of evidence in a criminal trial is much higher than in a civil case, so was any "rumour" used by the prosecution in the criminal trial ? Or, was there only witness's statements and cross examinations ?
The criminal trial transcript would be useful - it would probably show that the innuendo etc only appeared there courtesy of the defence’s effort to show an historical example of CASA’s vile nature, rather than as a part of CASA’s evidence for the prosecution.
Hiball, if you were in court, is that correct ?
At first glance, CASA’s statement, that Pprune posts were part of their basis of disapproving Honi as chief pilot, does raise a few eyebrows. However, CASA also quoted a lot more material there besides Pprune, and the quotation of Pprune rumours does not negate the stronger material on which CASA’s position relied.
Their subtle message in mentioning Pprune may well have been that, yeah, we’re (them) listening so if Pprune types have something send it to CASA.
Note this had nothing to do with the criminal trial, only the chief pilot disapproval, which seems not to have been contested.
What remains next is the CASA v. Honk battle over his right to continue to hold a CPL and an ATPL. The standard of evidence required in this AAT hearing will be less than that required in a criminal trial. The acquittal in August has no bearing on the forthcoming result, and we might hear a bit more innuendo and rumour, as some call it.
The issues would seem to be Honk-hardship (and a bit of Lyn Mott-hardship too ), versus public safety.
And yes, I’ve had CASA drop by to help. “Come right in, mate; tea, coffee, or kava ?”
There are two separate events - Honk’s criminal trial where the standard of evidence was not sufficient to convict, and the earlier disapproval of Honk as Air Ngukurr chief pilot where the grounds CASA used included rumours from Pprune !
The standard of evidence in a criminal trial is much higher than in a civil case, so was any "rumour" used by the prosecution in the criminal trial ? Or, was there only witness's statements and cross examinations ?
The criminal trial transcript would be useful - it would probably show that the innuendo etc only appeared there courtesy of the defence’s effort to show an historical example of CASA’s vile nature, rather than as a part of CASA’s evidence for the prosecution.
Hiball, if you were in court, is that correct ?
At first glance, CASA’s statement, that Pprune posts were part of their basis of disapproving Honi as chief pilot, does raise a few eyebrows. However, CASA also quoted a lot more material there besides Pprune, and the quotation of Pprune rumours does not negate the stronger material on which CASA’s position relied.
Their subtle message in mentioning Pprune may well have been that, yeah, we’re (them) listening so if Pprune types have something send it to CASA.
Note this had nothing to do with the criminal trial, only the chief pilot disapproval, which seems not to have been contested.
What remains next is the CASA v. Honk battle over his right to continue to hold a CPL and an ATPL. The standard of evidence required in this AAT hearing will be less than that required in a criminal trial. The acquittal in August has no bearing on the forthcoming result, and we might hear a bit more innuendo and rumour, as some call it.
The issues would seem to be Honk-hardship (and a bit of Lyn Mott-hardship too ), versus public safety.
And yes, I’ve had CASA drop by to help. “Come right in, mate; tea, coffee, or kava ?”
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rorksmate .... are you CASA ? seeing that you only signed in to pprune for the sake of bagging honks ... that sounds like a typical CASA thing to do .... especially when they are on the back foot.