Pax Landmarks -- Those big black signs with the white number can be a clue as well. . .

Check 6


Join Date: May 2000
Location: Florida
Posts: 787 The mishap crew relieved the JFK at MIA.

The CA pushing the wheelchair was not the mishap CA.



Are you sure about that?

The strength of modern airframes, given what that aircraft did, is to be commended. I haven't see such a thing since the Mohawk/Piedmont (stand to be corrected on the company) 1-11 left the runway, went across a road, between two buildings, and, despite having lost both wings, the pax and crew walked away. This incident was used as training for Bcal crews when doing their conversion, to the 1-11 in Pittsburgh, with regard to the strength of the airframe.
If aircraft had Ncap ratings (safety ratings to our US contributors) then this one would have got 5 stars, at least.

From the pics I'd say the Nosegear saved the lives of the flightcrew, if not most of first cabin. On the other hand, it killed the Turkish crew. The Continental 737 at Denver saved some lives as well.

Haven't seen anything about the crew being MD80 typed for the better part of their career, versus Guppy. The accident a/c was delivered in 2001, to United? UAL is off all guppies, one assumes this one was purchased by AMR?

Two very different types, needless to say, transition and experience issues?

bearfoil

bearfoil
 

I'm not aware of UA taking any NGs. Where did you get that info?

It's a waste of time talking about good aircraft vs bad aircraft when it comes to crashes.

Even the designers can't assess an overdesign. All these type aircraft meet the same standard and after that it's the luck of the exact rock or hard point that they hit.

Bearfoil, just to let you know, the Turkish pilots were killied by their seats detaching from the rails and both pilots launched into the roof. All pilots dead when emergency crews arrived. That's why they left the cockpit scene to the AAIU. Cockpit door was warped and emergency crews could see in.
Sorry, but had to set the record straight.

My understanding was that when the nose slammed into the turf, the lid kept going, down onto the crew who were planted on the nosegear reinforcements of the cockpit floor, not right?

Couple of other observations as an airline pilot for 15+ years into KIN, including flying the 737NG there.

-There are limited vision cues outside the runway. The bay is on the threshold and left side, city lights far in the distance. Limited street lights far to right also. Other end is ocean of course. It makes for the "aircraft carrier" effect at night, especially in rainy conditions that further isolate the runway.

-In rain, like many commercial jets, I've found the 737NG visibility can basically suck even with the wipers on high. The 1950's window design is already limited as it is. Rain repellant isn't installed anymore. The airlines are too cheap to RainX the windscreens each night also.

-KIN. It may just be me, but it seems the white runway markings seem bright enough during the day, they seem to blend into the runway color at night with little reflectivity from the aircraft lights, even worse when wet.

-KIN. There are limited physical cues other than the runway markings as to how far down the runway one may be. At places like Grand Cayman, I use the FBO as a point on the left side where I brief I expect to be on the ground or a GA will probably happen. KIN is basically the same appearance for most of the runway until the firehouse, where it's waay too late by that point. Runway distance remaining markers are tough to see at night, rain or in a flare, and can't recall how easy they can be seen at KIN. With the rain, and maybe windshear, and possible MEL's such as reversers or ground spoilers, the crew could have found themselves with degraded cues to the problem until it was too late to GA. Fatigue issues could also be a factor.

We also still don't know if there were any other mechanical problems with the aircraft. I also think the general public would be surprised as to the acceptable tire wear on the typical commercial jet. This too would affect stopping ability compared to the deep tread on a new set of main tires (is it spelled tyres here?:E)

More than enough factors for the NTSB. Doubtful all the facts will be correctly analyzed here, including mine.

?investigating authority? NOT ntsb??
 

"... enough factors for the NTSB ..."
Is this an NTSB investigation?

Re' factors, the 8000' Rwy sounds sufficient at first thought. But when I grab a B737 manual for REQ'd Rwy length [with the tailwind increments (+1500 feet)], seems there's not much room for err.

Their pilot's association released a statement that aluded to a long DUTY DAY prior to late night approach, with TRW near airport.

??? ANY CONFIRMATION on the pilots' time on-duty prior to landing????
?Was it 12 HOURS since they went to work??

Bamse01 said

Check 6
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Florida
Posts: 787 The mishap crew relieved the JFK at MIA.

The CA pushing the wheelchair was not the mishap CA.

Are you sure about that?


More than likely yes. There was a Deadheading Captain Check Airman on the flight? The Captain flying the aircraft sustained a broken arm? More than likely the one in the picture of the Captain pushing the wheelchair was not the Captain that flew the aircraft?

Approach Light system has apparently been out of service for almost a month?

I have been to KIN many many times over the years. Mostly in the Astro Dinoliner (727.) Best I can remember the Runway is Asphalt. Non grooved. Many parts of the runway have pools of standing water during rainshowers. Slicker than owl discharge.

Tail wind, Slick Wet Runway, Max Landing Weight, High Ref Speed. I am thinking a bad bad case of Hydroplaning.

NTSB will not be the only ones investigating, but they they are definitely on it. Matter of course when a US carrier and/or US manufacturer is involved.

Saw a video today on CNN of the Captain Brian Cole being interviewed briefly with his son standing next to him. He was the same Pilot who was pushing the wheel chair with the PAX in it.

Dec 27, 2009 7:56 am US/Eastern
Pilot Praises Crew After Plane Skids Off Runway

Miami Flight Overshoots Runway In Jamaica

The pilot of an American Airlines jet that skidded off a runway in Jamaica last week praised his crew for their professionalism and was thankful that he was able to be home with his family for the Christmas holiday.

"This is the best Christmas," Cole said, "I am just so happy to be home with my family."

Captain Brian Cole said Saturday from his home in Juno Beach that he had the "highest praise" and "eternal gratitude" for the way his crew reacted and helped their passengers.

"It's a testament to the professionalism of American Airlines," he said. "I have the highest praise for my first officer and eternal gratitude for the way the flight attendants reacted in their professionalism to get all the passengers home to their families, as well."

Cole suffered bruises on his forearms, chest and stomach, but no broken bones.

Flight 331 was landing in Kingston, Jamaica, late Tuesday in heavy rain on a flight from Miami when the plane skidded off the runway. Both engines were torn off on impact and the jet cracked open in three places, but all 154 people aboard survived.

The study of the plane's wreckage will end Sunday, and officials will then review flight data recorder information that is expected in the next few days, said Oscar Derby, director general of Jamaica's Civil Aviation Authority.

"We are investigating every possible factor," he said. "We are leaving no stones unturned."

http://www.wptv.com/media/lib/90/a/1...e/Original.jpg

Captain Bob: "Tail wind, Slick Wet Runway, Max Landing Weight, High Ref Speed. I am thinking a bad bad case of Hydroplaning."

"Max Landing Weight" would be unlikely for a 90 minutes flight. Unless there was a mechanical failure, there is no reason for a B737 to run off the 8900+ feet pavement. Larger, heavier wide bodies have landed on that "wet, slick, non grooved" pavement for decades. Practical reality suggests that the crew had touched down too far, and perhaps too fast, on the runway. :ooh:

Glueball I agree, however the flight was carrying Ferry Fuel. Aircraft was at Max Gross Landing Weight or there abouts. True others have flown in there for years (myself included) in other aircraft. Different crew, different night, different circumstances.

Respectfully,

Bob

Glueball, get ready for a bruising after that statement.

Glueball -

1. Max landing weight isn't linked to the length of flight. I'll be surprised if the flight was more than 1000, or perhaps 2000 lbs, less than MLW.

2. I've been qualified on 6-9 different airliners. The 737-800 has the worst landing performance. Fact, not opinion.

3. Absent other issues(mechanical, weather, etc) of course the plane should have stopped. It didn't. The investigation should be able to tell us why.

overbuilt or underbuilt

It is just so funny to me that Boeing discontinued the 757, yet stretched the 737, re-winged it and off you go.

I like things that are overbuilt...not stretched.

see previous comments on money.

Captain Bob said:

More than likely yes. There was a Deadheading Captain Check Airman on the flight? The Captain flying the aircraft sustained a broken arm? More than likely the one in the picture of the Captain pushing the wheelchair was not the Captain that flew the aircraft?



The Captain pushing the wheelchair is indeed the Captain of the flight.
He did not break his arm. According to his hometown paper, he got bruises
on his forearms,chest and stomach, but no broken bones.

To some it was a Christmas miracle that all 154 people aboard an American Airlines flight survived.

In the middle of a rain storm Tuesday night, Flight 331 came to a crashing halt on the runway in Kingston, Jamaica.
Story continues below ?advertisement | your ad here

Capt. Brian Cole, who lives in Juno Beach, was in control of the landing.

"I have the highest gratitude for my first officers and the flight attendants that were with us on the flight, to be able to get everybody home to their families," said Cole.

The Boeing 737 split in two and 92 people were taken to hospitals. Thirteen people were admitted but none of the injuries were life threatening, officials said

"It's just crazy to think my mom's boyfriend was the one involved but I'm just really glad that he saved all those people," said Sam Faria.

Faria and his mother live just down the street. He said Cole suffered a concussion and a broken arm.

The pilot's sister released a statement saying, "If you were ever on a plane, he's the guy you'd want as your pilot. He cared about each and every person on that plane."

Cole had planned a Christmas gathering at his home with his three sons, but plans were up in the air.

Cole's neighbors said they hope he will make a speedy recovery in time for the New Year.

"He's the nicest person you can wish to come into your neighborhood or your life," a neighbor said. "He's just wonderful."