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Outstanding article to read
This article from the Wall Street Journal is a must read...
xxx It should be the answer to all USA wannabees who ask "how to become a pilot". xxx Also the answer to pilots from the rest of the world who ask "How to be a pilot in USA" and get a visa. How about a visa to work at a "7-Eleven"...??? Wages are better... Leave the USA to the 12 million "undocumented" aliens, let them fly planes and speak Spanish in US airspace... xxx I left the USA for Argentina in 1993... so far, 14 years of happiness... Nice people here, red carpet treatment, great food (fast food unknown)... Nor for the money, but being treated as a human being by a decent airline. xxx :) Happy contrails |
I agree.. as a US citizen and FAA licensed pilot, I left the states due to lack of job availability and to continue to travel and see the world.. so right now I'm in China, but I'm leaving in a week to CNMI, and I'll continue my aviation career doing charter flights... I'm not doing this for money, but money is a big part of it. I make more right now than I ever did as a flight instructor in the states, and that's still more than any F/O position in any US-based regional airline
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DECs or DEFOs
Would we ever see DECs or DEFOs in the USA from abroad? Including the INS (Inmigration and Naturalization Service) approving work permits?
I sure hope so myself!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Cheers! AA |
All of you who want to be airline pilots in USA, read this...
www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php.t?=288355 You must be out of your mind to try to join airlines in USA, with such conditions well described by this text from the Wall Street Journal. xxx When I arrived in USA (issued a "Green Card" in 1968), it was a paradise, the pay was above average, that country meant "liberty" and it was the "land of milk and honey". Nothing is left of all that... This is 2007, not the 1960s... All you see is Hollywood idiot movies and CNN indoctrination... The "good life" - fast food McDonald's or "French restaurants" like Jacques in ze boxe... xxx All the USA is, now, is a good place to train to get a pilot licence... When PanAm declared bankruptcy in 1991, I lost a fortune in retirement investments. I could not even continue my career as 747 captain with another US air carrier. All they offered me is to be a 727 F/E... I was forced to sell my house and car, and declare personal bankruptcy. xxx Salaries of low cost US carriers or regionals are dismal. For years you will be a F/O for a yearly salary (and rare benefits) of some $25,000, in a country where an average house will cost you $250,000+ to buy. And maybe like me, you will furloughed many years and forced to work in other countries. xxx Why not be an airline pilot in another nation, at a salary of $75,000/year, or its equivalent in rupees, dirhams or pesos (it does not matter), and be able to buy a house or apartment for $100,000, in a nice area, and enjoy life as a upper class individual and respected professional, with all the benefits offered there, medical insurances, high retirement, and liberal travel benefits...? xxx I left USA in 1992 for good... To make room for idiots who want to go there. xxx :) Happy contrails |
BelArgUsa, wow you sound pretty hurt!!!!!!!!!!!
By the way, I could not open the link you sent!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Cheers, AA P.S. I don't see myself as an idiot for hopping to go to the States for a flying job!! |
USA have changed a lot and many guys in their 50-60 told me the same.
USA is a great country to discover for 1-2 years, but I am very sad for all these citizen who are stuck and brainwashed in the USA for life and who still believe it is the best place. People go to USA thinking they are going to be rich in 2 months. That's all ! |
Dartagnan:
Who was naiive enough to believe that they could get rich in the US as a pilot, whether after two months or twenty years, unless they became very fortunate with real estate or another investment? Airlines either negotiate pay rates based upon motivating their staff to work harder, for the long term, or pay only enough to "fill c0ckp1t seats", no matter how bad the turnover (loss of pilots) is. Many companies simply do not care. This last method explains why not many pilots show up for class at the lowest-paying regionals etc. Airlines are usually focused upon short-term or long-term goals, but often not both. |
Thank God for ALPA
Without ALPA we would be working for less than peanuts and at the mercy of the airlines. We PILOTS are partly to blame for our spineless actions when it comes to dealing with management. Eventhough there is a shortage of qualified pilots and flights are being cancelled we have not been able raise the payrates. I don't see a silver lining around the cloud for future aviators.
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The link requires a page value thus:
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...=288355&page=1 that should work .... |
Thank you for the corrected link, boogie-nicey, it is the one that I use to verify my sorry opinion of USA pilot employment situation. Every word in that Wall Street Journal report is correct. Many US pilots bail-out for jobs overseas.
xxx Yes, many pilots in my age bracket (50-60) - that many of you youngsters, are keen to insult in response to sound advice - have the same opinions as I have... If 20 of age again, yes, I would train in the USA for a licence, but not seek employment in USA under any circumstance. xxx There might be a (qualified) pilot shortage now in the USA... but plenty of pilots with CPL-IR-ME and 250 Cessna/Heavy hours are available. All these are busy playing CFI to share their superior aeronautical knowledge and experience to other young student pilots in US flight schools. The more qualified pilots, with ATPL and 2,000 hrs are finding underpaid F/O employment with the commuter carriers that bear an emblem of American, Delta or United on the tail... but that is not flying for AA, DAL or UAL... These more experienced F/Os are teamed with commuter captains, having what (?) 6 months extensive experience in the left seat of a Brasilia or CRJ... The blind leading the blind... I wish the passengers knew the level of experience of some of these crews... xxx Maybe, there will be a "hiring craze" in the next 2 years, 5,000 of you pilots will be hired. Now, let me give you my point of view on your career horoscope of your next 25 years as "airline pilot"... * You will be hired next year (having spent $80,000 to get there) to be a CRJ F/O, very low pay. * In 2011, you will become a captain on that CRJ, surviving with your salary. * Motel 6 near airports, commuting 3 times a month, maybe a divorce... * In 2012, you will be hired by Delta, the "real Delta" and be a 737 F/O... * First year wages again, commuting again. * In 2014, 10,000 pilots layoffs, because USA will declare war against Iran (?) or Zimbabwe (?) * Furlough until 2018, during which you will be... a CFI (maybe?)... moving 3 times, remarried... * Recalled, you will pass the next 10 years as F/O on the 787... wages start to be ok in 2025 (maybe?)... * Your airline will merge with another... loss of seniority for "the other list"... * And finally you will be captain in 2027... forced to move again. Retirement will come in 2035... * Hopefully your wife will have a little store selling mobile phones and perfumes to survive... Is that what you call a career of a professional?... xxx No thanks - USA, thank you... I prefer to fly A380s for Patagonian Air Service. :) Happy contrails |
BelArgUSA...there are in the US
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BelArgUSA, that is quite some story and commentary with regards to the 'modern' aviation professional. I guess most fresh wannabes are well and truely hypnotised by the allure of aviation yet fail to fully comprehend the rather adverse affects on their life as a whole, such as marriage, wealth and indeed health. People seem to have the nose so close to the paper they don't see the page which comes around to bite them in later life.
I have read some of your posts on other threads too and the general theme appears to be the same, one of caution with an appreciation of reality. However I see the pilot numbers in coming years and indeed decades falling as most of todays wannabes/junior pilots grew up in the 70s, 80s where avaiation wasn't vilified and a 'man's country' image to it. Today in our fuddy -duddy culture of cotton wool and spectre of global green issues alot of today's youth will shy awy from aviation and head for sports reflexology therapy! :ok: Anyway thanks once BelArgUSA, really appreciate that honest appraisal from someone inside the industry. |
Dear Dynasty22 /
xxx My answer to you is that the 1973 October War in the Middle East, caused a terrible crisis in the US airline industry in 1974 through 1979... I do not have the statistics, but I would say that some 20-25% of the entire airline pilot group got furloughed starting late 1973 (I was among those pilots). It only got back to "normal" and airlines hiring in the late 1980s... xxx Shall we talk about the de-regulation of 1978... and the numerous airline bankruptcies, such as Braniff, Eastern, PanAm, which were major airlines. Also how many airlines were new, how many got out of business. Of the new entrants in the late 1970s, only one is succesful - SouthWest Airlines... Well over 20 or 30 airlines started, and disappeared within 2 or 3 years in the 1980s and 1990s... xxx In view of your age (no criticism of your young age), ask your parents about the lines at the gas stations all across the country in 1973/74, gas rationing, even licence plates could buy gas on even days etc... xxx You mention 100,000+ airline pilots... I dont have the latest ALPA figures, but 65,000 ring a bell to me for ALPA members, add to that near 10,000 with APA and 10,000 with the Teamsters... Funny is, in the listing of "active pilots" in the FAA pilot list that I have access to, I found my name/address/ratings, yet my FAA/ATPL has been inactive since 1993... So these statistics are not very accurate. How many pilot certificate holders are current, not that many. xxx My young friend, you are certainly an airline enthusiast, and you know all there is to be known about airplanes, being a pilot... but you should have a look at the US airline history and economics since 1945... There were a lot of drastic bad times, sorry to say. xxx You are enthusiastic as I said, and an optimist. I am the opposite. I see now the US airline industry from far away, and nothing appears to be good. Sadly, the chances for a young pilot to have a "great career" as airline pilot in USA are possibly less than 20, maybe 30% at best... another 20 or 30% will "survive" with low wages for their entire career, and nearly 50% will eventually abandon their ailine dreams. xxx I have a son, he just turned 18 of age... He as a PPL, just finished his I/R and will soon get CPL and ME, doing his training in Florida. Under NO circumstances will I permit him to seek employment with a US airline, based on my personal career experience. Beware of USA and Middle East politics. There is another "Vietnam" in the making, but you would not know about that era... probably will have even worse consequences... xxx I have a good friend with PIA Pakistan Airlines, that I trained to fly in jets many years ago. He is now a 737 captain. With his wages, he owns a little car and lives in Karachi, owns a beautiful large house, with 2 living-in servants, a cook and a maid. His standard of living is beyond the dreams of most US airline pilots, particularly those who are suffering the wages of LCC and commuter air carriers. xxx A word about USA economy... In 1983, the US Dollar was worth 2 of the present day equivalent in Euros. Nowadays, a US Dollar is worth 70 Euro cents, in other terms the dollar is worth 1/3 of what it was 25 years ago. You want to be a pilot...? OK... but look for a career overseas, not in the US. When all will go to hell in the next years, the US carriers will furlough again, and gasoline at $6.oo a gallon will mean the end of the Hummers, and the large 6-liter-engine SUVs which I see all the time when I visit Miami... The only airlines that will not be affected (maybe) will be cargo carriers... xxx Listen to a pilot who has spent 38 years of his life with airlines... All the best to you... :) Happy contrails |
enthusiast maybe but i am employed by a us carrier as an aviation mgt degree +5 yr and switching over to piloting...but how much longer before planes will be flying on alternative fuels and already evolving fuel efficient aircraft have the Middle East as a problem...besides that is not even my age...must of been a typo on my part
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The few reasons I'm not flying in the US (I'm US Citizen and FAA licensed) is because of the following:
1) Job Security 2) Low Pay for regionals 3) There is more to the world than the US The only airlines I would fly for is major airline Cargo, Fed Ex, UPS, Atlas, NWA Cargo, etc etc.. but since I'm in no hurry to fly a 747 (Even though I want to fly MD11s) I'm happy being an expat flying piston'd charters |
He's Right
As a career pilot in the US and a lifelong resident, I must agree. The industry went to sh!t. There are some decent opportunities worldwide, and if the market for pilots gets tighter elsewhere, I'd go for it myself.
We are not respected here. They raid our retirements here. They steal our family health care coverage here. They use bankruptcy laws to abrogate our labor agreements here, and use our wages as a cushion for management ineptitude. And that's just the major items. I've had the privilege of meeting a few promising young CFI's at the flight school I hang out at. A few have gone overseas to some decent positions. They have the right idea. Why do I hang out at a flight school? Because as a 737 Capt., I have to supplement my wages in order to support my family, so I do some advanced instruction. The owner is a nice guy that doesn't mind letting me use his planes. I enjoy teaching, and it's my own deal, which I like - but it does prove a point: the good old days ended a quarter century ago. It just plane sucks now. |
If I could afford to retire early in a few years, I would, provided that there were a very good small company which operated whichever jets or turboprops and wanted to treat their staff well (and have good commuting policies). It is difficult to want to leave the country with various older and much younger family not too far away ("Sweet home...).
I've not yet heard of any smaller airlines having intelligent, (long-term) committed managements, except for two or three exceptions. There will be far too many FOs at NetJets waiting to upgrade by then. |
Transitioning from US to UK
I apologize if this has already been covered, but I read the thread and couldn't find much on it.
I am a US Navy pilot flying C-9s (McDonnell Douglas 30 series). I was raised in Europe and am intent on flying there someday, but have absolutely no idea where to start. I've been told that none of my ratings count, but surely my hours do???? If ANYONE can shed some light on this topic for me, and perhaps forward some links that would be useful, it would be greatly appreciated. I've looked briefly at Virgin Atlantic and British Airways. How do these stack up to US airlines? I can't seem to find a payscale anywhere. |
We are not respected here. They raid our retirements here. They steal our family health care coverage here. They use bankruptcy laws to abrogate our labor agreements here, and use our wages as a cushion for management ineptitude. And that's just the major items. The hell with it, I just went for the contract gig and if it doesn't work? I'm done with flying. After 24 years I've had just about enough airplanes to last me a lifetime. Sorry for the venting:eek: |
TheDominican, why not spread your wings further afield as BelArgUSA says. Perhaps you could venture down to the middle east where a plethora of new carriers have sprung up over the last few years whilst others are undergoing a rapid expansion. The pay will be better and you won't be dragged down by union negotiations that just fail to alleviate the longer term financial woes.
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I'm afraid not. The U.S. pilots who are leaving are fully qualified airline pilots with thousands of hours in jets. New pilots like yourself will not have an easier time getting into the country and working because of American pilots seeking jobs elsewhere.
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I'm forced to agree with all of you recommending against working as a pilot in the U.S.
I am a dual citizen ( Swedish, US) having been lucky enough to get on with a major U.S carrier in the early 90's. I spent 2.5 years on furlough before being recalled and then, of course, the aftermath of 9/11 with more furloughs, bankruptcies and resulting loss of pensions. Although my airline escaped the most recent wave of bankruptcies I have no illusions as to what the future holds. I am now a wide body co-pilot with a decent salary( only because I'm single) looking at captain upgrade at my base in perhaps 4 years. That will be 19 years to captain. I plan on retiring at 50 and take my services overseas. The job simply doesn't hold much allure anymore with cranky employees, greedy and indifferent management and seniority stagnation unknown even in the 1970's. I would encourage all future aspiring pilots to stay away from the U.S market except to gain experience. The ONLY exception to this is UPS and FedEx. If you manage to get on with any of these you have certainly hit the jack pot. If not, follow the advice of other ppruners on this thread and get out. I probably will. |
Another fact about the US Dollar...
I recently had a commuter airline Embraer F/O from the US on board of one of my flights, and was surprised to meet an "ex-US Citizen and ex-PanAm pilot" flying an Argentina 747... and we talked airlines and wages and career the whole flight...
xxx He is a second year F/O on Bandeirantes... he is 27 years old, and told me that he spent nearly $100,000 in training before he got hired by an "almost airline" (my name for a commuter air carrier). He still goes to college to get a 4 years degree, so to qualify for a major US carrier. xxx He told me about his wages... US$24,000/year which is at today's exchange rate UK Sterling = 12,000 Pounds/year, or 17,200 Euros/year... He cannot afford to live at his base (due to rental rates) so, he lives with his parents, and spends approximately 20 nights monthly in a motel near the airport at his base. The motel rate for the room is $39 per night... oh yes, he has a medical insurance (but the first $1,000 of medical expenses for each calendar year are not covered, nor pharmaceuticals)... Oh yes, his income tax must be around 15-20% of his gross income (how "gross" is the money he is left with...???) - xxx He was surprised that we do not charge for drinks and peanuts on our flight... ...and... he gave me his pilot resume (C.V.)... xxx :) Happy contrails |
Good Riddens..
BelArgUSA,
I have been following your post for sometime. I am a ex-Pan Am pilot I flew the B727 out of DCA. I am a PROUD USA citizen and I went throught the same crap you did. I hate how you criticize the USA for the airline problems! I found a great flying job here in the USA not in some Third world hole. I own a house on Cape Cod, Condo in Charleston SC, and I manage to buy the wife a fancy convertable. Amazing, all in the USA! The US is not responsible for your problems, it was poor management in a Capitalist sytem. Blame the managers and the idiots who run the airlines. Blame ALPA for your problems! You signed off on Seniority, you decided to live in LA. So, when Pan Am went to the grave on December 4, 1991, so did our seniority. So blame ALPA for not being able to find a B747 Capt position at United. I managed to find a great corporate job that gave me a better life than Pan Am. I miss Pan Am but I REALLY don't miss your types.. Good Riddens and bid another route/country. America will be a better place without you and the Mexicans Cheers, Cessnaxdriver |
CessnaAxDriver and US Ppruners:
How about a debate about this industry. I agree, in general, with various observations made by BelArgUsa, and-too a limited extent-can understand Cessna's resistance to criticism of US govt decisions by someone who grew up elsewhere. But he worked for years for a US major airline. Here are my criticisms of some previous US govt decisions and policies and do not speak for anybody else. Some of these policies and laws still exist as our industry races to the bottom. Some of the fault lies with the fact that different MECs live in a vacuum to a large extent when they battle Upper Mgmts. Let's first clarify that this US industry was never deregulated. That is a deception for the American public, created under the smoke of the (Democratic) Carter Administration, and sponsored to an extent by Democratic Senator Kennedy, partly motivated by his desire to improve air service within his tiny "Republic of Massachusetts" and between its many city pairs. Blame should be shared by both major parties-stay tuned. I am a native US citizen and was hired into a turbofan right seat in 1985. The airlines have never operated in a political vacuum. The huge anti-labor advantages (proper in a so-called "advanced industrialized nation"? ) given to some airline Upper Mgmts by the Reagan, Bush Sr and other administrations should have been a scandal. Former Professor Alfred Kahn (the US 'guru' of airline dereg.), who advised the US Congress on the benefits on partial deregulation with his convoluted and bizarre theories received very lucrative stock in New York Air, and there were comments in "Aviation Week & ST" that this stock was somehow connected with his successful arguments before Congress in 1977 or '78. US laws and a few White House Chief Executives enabled charming slime to abuse our profession using numerous legal methods. At the top of this slime heap (Misthaufen) stands Mr. Frank Lorenzo ("Frankie Smooth-Talk"), who set a historical precedent by his exploitation of bankruptcy laws (he understood the political landscape, via Ronald Reagan, as Wellington understood Waterloo's layout better than Napoleon) in order to void the Continental labor contracts. We have not made too much progress since the early 80's. Several top DOT Administrative Judges made very favorable rulings for Texas Air Corporation, and then quickly went to work for TAC (against labor?). Just a coincidence, I suppose.;) The US federal laws which allowed airlines to grossly underfund our pension funds should also be a national shame and scandal. But what mindboggling complexity, even for most of us who went beyond Jethro Bodine's level of education. These are just a few of the realities, allowed by decades of politicians sticking it to aviation professionals (CO, Eastern etc) who have given everything they could to help their airlines survive. Sure, the creation of junk bonds in the 80s was not the fault of our US government. But (mostly GOP) government arrogance towards our profession (because we are neither management nor major stockholders) would have had little effect if this industry operated inside a vacuum. I would never apologize for what such meddling has done, either directly or indirectly, to our airline industry. A relative lost part of his pension due to an airline "White Knight"-enabled by US laws which had existed for decades. I would never apologize for that either. By the way, is it not true that of the three (3) people on the PBGC (the pseudo-private govt pension corporation), two (2) of those people also have decisive roles within the govt-run ATSB (Air Trans. Stabilization Board), which decides which US airlines deserve favorable govt. financial loans? With other industries watching how the US airlines lean heavily on the PBGC, they have joined the game (let future generations worry about the immense debts). If that is true, is that situation not a major potential conflict of interest? If these situations are/were true, it would never be my decision to apologize for such. If these situations are mistaken, I will gladly stand corrected. In my opinion, BelArgUSA's observations can be valid no matter where he was born, whether Ruhpolding, Bavaria...Brugge, Belgium or Olathe, Kansas. He appeared to have worked for years as an airline pilot here. I can name only three airline (or former) CEOs who had the instr., multi- and maybe a type rating: Bethune (CO:757, via his Boeing job), Arpey (AMR: flying his familiy in an Aztec or Twin Comanche), and Mr. Mickelson (Am Trans Air). Heck...some US-born academics and others are given credit as "aviation consultents", almost none of of whom had any operational job in US civil aviation, whether as mechanic, pilot etc. I know several mainline pilots who are leaving all their seniority behind, frpm ages 41 to age 52, in order to join other airlines as new-hires (Fedex, UPS, Emirates) or leave the career altogether! One studies and has a family, to pursue a career as a Nurse Anesthesiologist. This almost never happened years ago. These guys have been full-time pilots for at least 18 years or so. An FO I've worked with is on the backed-up interview list for one of those companies. They want to work for companies in careers where people are not spat upon, and the airlines etc have leadership and the intelligence/integrity to plan and execute long-term corporate strategies. When jumpseating on Fedex, notice the very good morale of their ground- and flightcrews. It leaves me quite envious after I leave their facilities. This company is too arrogant to care, unless hundreds of flights are cancelled...the Board of Directors finally pull their heads out of their a@@@@, find some backbone (?) and notice: I see why they need such total wimps on the Board. Prove me wrong. Most top officials in the DOT, FAA and elsewhere NEVER worked as a pilot or as a controller, mechanic etc. They chose to never even require a scheduled rest period for reserve/standby crews until after bodies were removed from the MD-82 at LIT. The FAA was never primarily funded by nor directly manipulated by a foreign government (i.e. the US congress and the White House anti-labor political agenda). I have a one-day trip today and need time to fly the simulated Hurricane, P-38 or Bf-110 against some bogies or FLAK. Yep, a sign of early dementia, but at least it is VFR flying that some of us can afford. Tot ziens and au revoir. |
Announcement
The last 3 posts were deleted for various reasons. I have posted a reminder of the terms which you all agreed to when joining the Professional Pilots Rumour Network.
And now back to the topic at hand... |
Cessnadriver
Did you know of a guy called niel nordquist in PA. He was 747. I have been trying to track him down. Regards |
Hi!
Mesa is about ready to shut down, because of a lack of pilots. Pinnacle and Mesaba are hiring captains off the street. They start out making about $60K first year. TT required is about 2500. EVERY regional in the US is hiring guys with less than 500 hrs TT. NO ONE has to be a flight instructor, unless you want to. And, if you want to, you can make $40K+ as a flight instructor for the Ab-Initio schools out west. The airline I fly for hired 2 guys with less than 400 hours Total Time. Starting pay is $34K. I was hired at about 2000 TT. 5 year captain pay is $92/hour. My buddy has worked here about 7-8 years, and he has over $150K in his retirement account. Another guy just left us for Emirates. He was offered DEC on the -777. A buddy of mine went to Kalitta (747s-requiring 4000 TT) and made over $100K as an FO. NetJets requires 2500 TT. Their new base pay, if you take the 7/7 schedule will be $60K. If you take the 18 day work schedule, you will make $75K first year as an FO. Top pay at NetJets will be well over $200K. As a current US airline pilot, you won't make as much as you did in the '70s. HOWEVER, you can easily make more than 90% of people in the world, in a reasonable amount of time. If you think it's crap, don't come here. If you're lucky enough to live in India or China, do your flight training there and fly there-they need you. cliff KLRD PS-I have been working in the US for 24 years, in 5 career fields. Now that I am working in the airlines, I am making the most I have ever made, and it's by FAR the best job I've had. I do NOT work at a major airline. That would be MUCH better than where I'm at, and pay a LOT more. PPS-If you don't want to fly PAX, then the top 3 are: FedEx, UPS and Atlas/Polar. |
EVERY regional in the US is hiring guys with less than 500 hrs TT. NO ONE has to be a flight instructor, unless you want to. And, if you want to, you can make $40K+ as a flight instructor for the Ab-Initio schools out west. Not every regional is hiring with less then 500, skw, express jet, horizon to name a few. The airline I fly for hired 2 guys with less than 400 hours Total Time. Starting pay is $34K. I was hired at about 2000 TT. 5 year captain pay is $92/hour. My buddy has worked here about 7-8 years, and he has over $150K in his retirement account. Another guy just left us for Emirates. He was offered DEC on the -777. A buddy of mine went to Kalitta (747s-requiring 4000 TT) and made over $100K as an FO. There is no way he made over 100k at kalitta unless he is an extremely sr guy (they start out at first year$57, 64, 74, 77/hr) |
PA
oicur12,
I was a 727 driver out of DCA, but that name sounds very familar! Did he reside around Boston? Xdriver |
Hi!
The Kalitta guy was a 2nd year FO. $100K was NOT his base pay. He worked extra, and earned it. C U! cliff KYIP |
Cessnadriver,
He was JFK based (I think) but lived in northern CA. Small world huh. |
ATP Cliff:
Your information is quite accurate and reflects what several RJ pilots have recently told me. |
ATP Cliff,
I know a lot of RJ guys & Freight Dogs looking at overseas contracts/airlines. Many of us are getting tired of how US airlines are poorly managed. Moral is literally in the toilet. With airlines in the Middle East, India, China, Japan and Korea all hiring and the Fractional jobs in the States, the US Airlines will be hurting for pilots as more of us go overseas or fly biz-jets in the States. |
Hi!
Pinnacle (Northwest Airlink) has a pipeline of guys going to Emirates. My buddy is leaving for there in 2 weeks-he´s VERY excited. Good luck to you! cliff pdc (Playa del Carmen, Mexico) |
ATPCliff:
The guy at Emirates who is/was reportedly in charge of hiring pilots is Mr. E* D*******. He was a NWA DTW Chief Pilot a few years ago. Reportedly, is the key word. Several pilots have claimed this to have been true. Maybe it was never true. |
Ignition Override,
In post #147, October 6th 2007, you said "Let's first clarify that this US industry was never deregulated." What, in your opinion, happened back in the fall of 1978? What was your involvement with aviation prior to the fall of 1978? |
Mr E* D******* is not in charge of hiring pilots at Emirates and his NWA background is of no signifigance to this subject.
Emirates does need a lot of pilots, they need them now and in the future but you don't get hired just by showing up. |
Greetings misd-agin:
My comments were meant to describe US deregulation as only partial deregulation, and they are admittedly selective and quite brief, due to the desire to compress the descriptions here. From Wikipedia: "Essential Air Service subsidies effective 10 years from enactment". We flew to some of those towns in the EMB-110 and SD3-30/60. "...CAB was authorized to grant antitrust immunity to air carriers". But mergers require Department of Justice approval. In "Airline Deregulation: The Unfinished Revolution" by R.W. Poole Jr. and Viggo Butler: "In deregulation, Congress unleashed market forces on one segment of the air travel system-but failed to free up the critical infrastructure on which airlines depend, namely the airports and the air traffic control system. These essential elements of the air travel system remain not only govt.-controlled, but government-owned." These comments are certainly selective but appear to be valid in the general sense, based upon everything written about our system in "Aviation Week", the "Wall Street Journal" and observed by the older guys in the left seat years ago, many of whom started flying in the early 70s or earlier. Few line pilots seem to have had inside government contacts who could provide objective inside information on the entire process. At least none that I ever heard of when the retired older guys were working here years ago. They noticed how our careers were not helped by White House favoritism given to Mr. Lorenzo from about 1980-1992 or so. The strong tendency of aspiring airline pilots to believe in the self-delusion that "rugged individualism" (the myth we absorbed from John Wayne movies) and self-promotion are more important than pilot profession solidarity have eroded this profession, being two very basic human elements which have been exploited year after year by many airlines and developed into an art form. A bankruptcy attorney who was retained by our company told a fellow crewmember that their job during Chapter 11 negotiations was to make our jobs almost bad enough for people not to want to come to work (the present staff or the future outsourced?).Have we seen the bottom yet? No 'patriotic motives' or political leanings can camouflage this reality. Two pilot interviewees were on the airport shuttle yesterday. After they got off, another older pilot here was surprised that guys would want to give up a Captain's seat somewhere to be brand-new again, face very hard work during Init. Tng for just $29/hour the first year, and not much more during the 2nd year (flying 100-125 seat jets). Speaking of "Aviation Leak", it quoted "alleged";) pressure inside the FAA's Western Region to allow certain "irregularities" (or did it say advantages?) during the CO strike against Lorenzo in '83-84". The issue could probably be researched in a university library after trolling the Internet. The local one has good flight safety articles in the old "MAC Flyer" (now AMC), maybe copies of "Approach" magazine (these are often on the Internet). "Alleged" decisions by former DOT Admin. Law judges who immediately went to work for either CO or TAC right after favorable rulings for Texas Air Corporation appeared to be interesting coincidences, as described by "Aviation Week & ST". The so-called "quasi-private" PBGC and the ATSB are basically government entities. Professional bureaucrats and attorneys might better describe this with the correct terminology and accuracy. I earned my Private license in '78, then went into the AFRES, flying civilian turboprops in '83, then turbofans from '85 to the present. I'm just a regular line pilot with no legal or govt experience. As our careers (in the US) race to the bottom, it is interesting that so many pilots seem to be leaving this country for what are apparently good jobs overseas. |
I did not realize the 380 was already flying for Fedex.
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