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ummm, reminds me something about a story where a UAL captain told his F/O during the initial approach (visual) to hand fly the airplane and the F/O refused to. Don't remember any other details tho.
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'AND IT WOULD BE NICE TO FLY ONCE WITHOUT EXPLAINING OR TEACHING A STUDENT PILOT AND MAKING PEANUTS!!!!!"
Well thankfully some one hung around and taught your ungratefull behind how to fly and this is how you pay back the industry!! if i remember correctly you were a student pilot not too long ago, now because you have a paltry 800hrs you are the (edited for language) I will not want you in a cock pit with me with this kind of attitude |
742 probably has the most valid criticism of the pilot training situation in the U.S. that I've seen here. That said, the implication that U.S. pilots aren't as willing to work and learn as our European ab-initio bretheren is a bit harsh. There are a substantial number of trainees who believe they are far more qualified than they actually are, but most of them receive a reality check when they hit the line. Most low-time U.S. airline pilots are acutely aware of how much we have to learn, and of the incredible responsibility we have flying passengers. I feel that the key difference here is exactly what is expected of low time pilots here versus in Europe. Graduates of ab-initio programs in Europe are usually very technically qualified (if not yet in posession of flawless stick-and-rudder skills), and they are not expected to perform to the same standard as a fully qualified and experienced FO. They are properly trained, they are supported, and they are compensated. In America, low-time regional FOs receive the same standard training as everyone else, and we are expected to perform to the same standard as everyone else on the line at whatever regional we find ourselves in. In most cases, we are working harder for far less money than more experienced FOs at the major airlines. If that's not a recipe for a young pilot with a bad attitude, I don't know what is.
It's no secret that the life of a U.S. regional pilot is hard. If there are attitude problems (and there are), I would sooner blame the environment in which we train and work than accuse pilots of an unfounded sense of entitlement. I'm not entirely happy with the training new pilots receive in the transition from general aviation to the airlines, but most of us simply work that much harder in order to catch up. The alternative is to abandon the notion of an airline career, which is something I'm not willing to do at this point. |
ThePotato232: Well-put.
One benefit which many airline pilots had in the late 60s and 70s was the fact that many were hired, whether with a GA background, or from a T-38, C-123 etc, into a transport aircraft which had either reciprocating or turboprop engines. All pilots in this group flew around at lower altitudes and mostly in lower-performance airliners, no matter what their background. A very large number were hired as FO on the F-27/227, the Convair 600/640/580 or the Martin-404. Some of these were not very high performance. I've jumpseated in a few of them. Anyway, they flew into many small airports with no control tower, and into some busy larger airports, such as Las Vegas, Atlanta, Minneapolis and Chicago, to name a few, and in quickly changing weather. Their companies then received either DC-9s or 737s, allowing them at a fairly young age to then quite often fly longer legs into LAX, SEA, ORD, MSP, LGA etc. Many of these became familiar with all-weather airline ops years before they first streaked in their first jet past the airport at 250 knots, wondering when to slow down. They learned quickly whether there was a tight 'coffin corner' at high altitude, or not (i.e. DC-9), and after a while, whether staggering to the highest possible altitude at climb power on a hot day (the same altitudes as the turbulence in storm overhangs/'blow-off') saved much fuel in a heavily-loaded plane after an interesting reduced-flap takeoff while wallowing into the air with EGTs near the top of the yellow arc (over 500*C.). As for the pay, there is probably less purchasing power now, factoring inflation into it, on a CRJ FO's $1600/ month salary, than with first year pay in the right seat of a DC-9 or B-737 in 1985 (i.e. $1400/month, before taxes). :hmm: But this was only the bad first year pay. It increased, by contract, a good bit in the second, then third years etc. Sadly, the new DC-9 or 737 is a CRJ or EMB-170. I doubt that the purchasing power of an FO's salary on the CRJ, even in the EMB-170's FO seat would ever begin to equate to what his predecessors' FO pay produced from about '85-2003. And these jets' salaries have mostly replaced the much higher purchasing power (inflation included) which historically was fairly common, for flying aircraft on the exact same city pairs. Most of these city pairs, whether DTW-ATL, ATL-VPS, ORD-MBS, MSP-FAR, MEM-PHL, DFW-SHV, HOU-BTR, were all connected non-stop for many years by either a DC-9 dash 10, a 30, a B-737 200 or a Fokker 100 etc. Many younger pilots are not aware of what went before them. Upper Mgmts have often exploited this lack of awareness, in so many ways. The promises of the fairly typical airline executives, that "for less money on your first jet, you can upgrade to jet Captain much sooner", will continue to depress, and even lower the buying power of the younger pilots' salaries. It is a very unfortunate trend. Far fewer major airline jobs are now available, and almost all of the best US jobs regarding salaries etc lure pilots to fly cargo, instead of passengers. Some are now told during the interview at a start-up carrier, they will earn about $99/hour on the EMB-170 etc. But they have no written contract (and worse, no union-yet). One guy told me that he is considering giving up years on the CRJ to join such an outfit with no seniority, all on corporate promises. It depresses me to think about the bait and switch tactics so common in this industry, designed to lure pilots into an operation which will make dire threats as their careers become so abused that they desperately need a union, while fearing, as a result, the transfer of their planes to another carrier under the same codeshare, whether at Mesa, Mesaba, etc. The pervasive corruption, "alleged" ;) insider-trading, total lack of integrity and half-truths and lies in this business never stop. Some companies' typical operating style is to break any and all promises, whether day-off guarantees, contract rest/duty rules (with the FAA's collaboration) and numerous basic FARs, or any combination of the above. One former airline stock-owner reportedly has a ship in the Med. which is at least 400 feet long. He and his partner tried to secretly sell off one of the lucrative Pacific routes and pocket the cash in the 90s, as that US airline struggled with an enormous debt load, due to the type of financing used to purchase the airline. To quote one of our 64 year-old ROPEs ('retired old pilot FE', who is a former Eastern pilot) with whom I chatted last week,"There will never be a shortage of scumbag executives to work in this industry." The best of luck out there to all you young pilots. |
Pilot shortage?
Is there really a pilot shortage in the horizon? A better question should be: are there going to be enough experienced pilots in the airlines’ future? Not an easy answer. As far as the legacy airlines is concerned, I don’t think a pilot shortage is a problem in the short and mid terms. There are plenty of regional airline pilots keeping the supply side of the equation in favor of the legacies. The regional airlines, on the other hand, are beginning to experience problems attracting experienced pilots. Notice I’m using the term "experienced" and not the term "qualified." Why? Because a pilot who completes training and passes the company’s check ride is a qualified pilot (at least in the eyes of the FAA). However, passing a check ride only indicates that a pilot meets the minimum requirements to operate the aircraft. Here is where the regional airlines are facing problems. Pay and quality of life are so poor at the regionals that they are not able to attract experienced pilots. Those aviators with considerable flight time are staying put at corporate, fractional, and FAR 135 operators because the regionals just don’t offer a viable alternative. So what’s left for the regionals? Well, we are seeing it now; the 600 hr. pilot who may be able to become qualified by completing the airline’s flight training but lacks real world experience; the kind of experience only acquired by "doing it." I don’t think we will see a shortage of pilots per se, instead, we’ll continue to see a shortage of experienced pilots. A sign of the times. P |
Hi!
Introduction: There is a pilot shortage worldwide, and it is getting worse on a monthly basis. Currently, the US is the only place (maybe a few excess pilots in Australia) with some excess pilots. Boeing says that, worldwide, 19,000 airline pilots are needed a year for the next 20 years. They are setting up an alternative training program to get guys up to speed faster and cheaper. Last year, virtually EVERY jet manufacturer worldwide had their best order year ever. And, 2005 WAS their best year ever, until they surpassed it in 2006. The US is seeing multitudes of VLJs coming on line starting this year, also. Worldwide, the projection for airline travel is going up dramatically. Much of this growth is from India and China. Europe already has an Age 70 committee working, and they will ease the requirements for a commercial pilot, as the are getting so short. India needs 11,000 airline pilots in the next 3 years. Last year they produced 150. China needs 9,000 airline pilots the next 3 years. They produce 1,000 per year. Emirates needs 400 pilots by the end of this year. They told my buddy he is qualified to get a -777 Captain job with them. He has NO widebody experience, NO heavy experience, and NO oceanic experience. Previously, you needed to have a type rating and time in type to get a Captain job at Emirates. Cathay is parking one or more freighters because they don't have enough pilots. The contract agencies are going crazy trying to find pilots to fill the slots that they are allotted. They used to have lots of qualified applicants on file. Now they have very few, and the applicants they do have are telling the contract agencies that the jobs don't pay enough. US Airlines already have plans in place to begin Ab-Initio (like air forces do, or Euro/Asian carriers where the carrrier pays for everything) training when needed (not if). US Regionals: The regionals are having MASSIVE problems getting enough guys. Unfortunately, you have to have Green Card or the right to work here already. They are hiring EVERY 500 hour TT pilot in the country. Next will be the race for the Commercial/Multi/Instrument 200 hour pilots. There is a MASSIVE shortage of instructors-some flight schools have shut down, or are turning away students. No need to instruct when you can get an airline job. They are paying new-hires bonuses of up to $5,000 USD. Many are paying their current pilots bonuses if they find new hires. They are cancelling whole banks of flights. Many of them have also contracted for new feed service with more airplanes soon, and have found they can't even cover the flying the have now. The regionals virtually ALL pay in training, pay for your lodging, perdiem, and give you jumpseat and/or pass privileges to fly home on the weekends. It used to be the worst ones didn't, but they have to now. Pinnacle, Trans States, PSA (a USAir feeder) and USA Jet (where I work) have NO hourly minimums right now (we used to be 2000/1000, now we're Commercial/Multi/Instrument). Almost all of the regionals don't have interview or class dates now. They'll either interview and hire over the phone, or they'll interview the candidates whenever they can make it in. Many of them run a new-hire class EVERY Monday, and take whoever shows up. We were trying to get 2000/1000/1 year of crew experience guys in to go directly to a DC-9 and we'ver gotten 1 so far, after trying for 3 months. One of our competitors (we're on-demand freight and charter PAX) needed pilots bad and didn't even get a RESUME for 3 months, much less anyone in to interview. Regionals have held classes of 25-30, and only 5-10 guys show up. At Trans States, Dec 2006, you needed 4000 TT to upgrade. Now it's 2000. Pinnacle only hires FOs, but the qualified ones bid for Captain on day one, and are awarded the bid while still in their first week with the company. Pinnacle has contacted every pilot that was every scheduled to interview with them, and didn't, or turned the job down, and asked them to start class. They've even contacted everyone that has left and asked them if they wanted to return! Our Director of Recruiting gets constantly asked to start class at a regional, and he's over 60 years old! Many of us in the US have gotten job offers from multiple regionals, over and over, even though we've never even applied. Several of our pilots left for NetJets (a fractional) recently. Since Jan, they have experienced a net loss of pilots each month, even though they've been hiring full tilt. They have hundreds of planes on order. US Majors: Southwest just lowered their PIC turbine hour requirement from 1300 to 1000 hours. They did this because they didn't have as many applications as they wanted. Delta started hiring this year and was shocked with how few military applicants they had (they used to hire virtually ALL military FW pilots). Many NWA/UAL/USAir/DAL pilots are refusing to return off of furlough, because they have better jobs at the places they're at now. UAL/NWA and USAir will all be hiring MUCH sooner than they planned because many of the furloughees didn't return. KATL Air Inc Hiring Conference: Several years ago, a guy I know went and said there were about 1000 pilots attending. Last year, my buddy said there were 400 pilots. This year he said about 120 pilots. Cathay and Emirates now attend EVERY major hiring conference. In the past, they would take Americans, but they never actively solicited them. A guy I know was hired by Mesa at the conference. He said they got only 7 resumes from the whole weekend! He did NOT have a Commercial, and Mesa hired him anyway, contingent upon his getting his Commercial License. He asked about an intervew and was told it wasn't necessary. Closing: We found a higher time guy last Monday, interviewed him on Thursday, and he started class yesterday (Monday). 7 days from first contact to starting class. He was offered Captain slot at Pinnacle, but didn't want to fly with all the 200-500 hour FOs they've been hiring. We had another guy with 1000 Total Time, 500+ CRJ time and a CRJ type rating coming in to fly the DC-9. He got a Captain's job in India paying $100K USD, with family housing, schooling for his children and a car and driver provided. Now's the biggest pilot shortage since the early '60s (when US majors hired kids in high school with no time). And, barring a MAJOR change, it's only going to get worse (if you're trying to hire), or better (if you're a pilot) in the next few years. Currently, FedEx/UPS/UAL/NWA/USAir AA aren't hiring. Within 6 months, UPS/UAL and NWA will be hiring. Within 12 months FedEx and USAir will be hiring, with AA to follow. Wow! cliff DA-20 Captain USA Jet Airlines KYIP |
ATPCLIFF
Well done...very comprehensive and informative post.. |
ATP Cliff wrote:
"Currently, the US is the only place (maybe a few excess pilots in Australia) with some excess pilots." How are you defining "pilot"? In Canada you still have guys lining up for jobs on the ramp (where they spend usually a year to 2 years doing grunt labor before they are made an FO on a Navajo or King Air). You also got guys lining up around the block for jobs at Air Canada that pay a grand wopping $38,000 per year. In Europe you have no shortage of guys paying huge sums of money to buy type ratings, and then paying to work for free via hour building schemes. What's the average salary of regional FO in the US? Has it broken the McDonald's night shift manager level yet? Seriously, it's nice to see hiring, but let's not get carried away and let's keep it in context... And remember, we're still dealing with aviation... things in aviation have a way of changing over night... Or have we forgot about 9-11 already? |
PosClimb
As always in this debate I think we have to distinguish between experienced pilots and wannabees going after their first job.... there will probably never be a shortage of wannabees. You are of course right on the volatile nature of the business. |
Hi!
You're right-I didn't mention that Canada has excess pilots (I should've remembered, since my CEO is Canadian). I know that in Europe they are needing pilots. One of the reasons that Asian carriers like Cathay and Emirates are having such shortages is that many of their European pilots are returning to Europe. Also, JAR wouldn't be studying Age 70 and easing requirements if there were excess pilots. cliff KYIP |
Hi Cliff
Given all the facts you stated it is just a matter of time to US allow highly experienced foreign pilots.
If a skilled profession has significant shortage law permits employment of foreign workforce. |
ATPCLIFF: I really enjoyed reading your description of the situation here.
A buddy at NWA told me yesterday that when he was furloughed a few years ago, he applied to be an Instructor at Pinnacle and they only offered him a job as line pilot, which still pays (a salary) little above US minimum wage. He said that recently NWA assumed that dozens of laid-off mainline pilots would rush over to Compass when they began operations. A buddy who might not return there told him that only 5 have gone to work there-and Compass certainly still no written contract for pay, benefits or anything else. Are guys interviewing there feeling optimistic after hearing about corporate promises, even if they are interviewed by pilots? If so, what planet were they on until now? In a recent copy of "Aviation Week & ST", a regional airline 'executive' describes the pilot shortage. Among those who operate the lousiest airlines, are these guys intelligent enough to discover the connection between their arrogant greed :E,the minimum wage starting jet salaries and the surprise that there are far fewer applicants, or why almost nobody shows up for Day One in groundschool at times? My sympathy lies with the brand-new young pilots who struggle and claw their way through some of the regional airline training programs. My buddy claimed that at one airline with CRJs, about half are not successful. Hopefully they realize, especially after leaving programs that are reportedly not good (a furloughed pilot told me about Chatauqua's training), that there are better programs-possibly training in a SF-340 or Beech-1900. In my opinion, compared hour for hour, flying mostly short, very busy legs into congested airline hubs and back is much more valuable experience around weather or in winter snow to some (so-called) non-precision approaches in LAN or SPI in a two-pilot turboprop, compared to droning six hours from Niagara Falls to PDX in a C-130 with an FE. |
Hi!
The only experienced pilots that are excess are in the US and Canada. Europe, Latin America, Africa, Asia and Australia have no excess experienced pilots. The FAA and NavCanada made it easy to crossover with your US or Canadian license, but you still need the right to work. It is the rest of the world that is looking to America to get their pilots. I recently heard from a recruiter that his buddy was hired as a street captain and check airman on the -767LR. He was a retired US guy, age 63, and he was found by one of the desperate contract agencies-he didn't apply or even know about the job. They took him even though he can only fly two years. cliff kyip |
With the current situation as per excellent post by atpcliff, we should see an upward trend of pilot's salaries.
We should all work together to ensure that we get what we deserve and "pilots working for nothing" should be a thing of the past. |
I agree with atpcliff and I stated this in my March post that there is, indeed, a pilot shortage...off course, those who are "player haters" are going to "hate the game" but the reality is the pilot shortage is here, in every catagory of work. I'm definately reaping the benefits from it...
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ATPCLIFF:
It appears that, based upon chats with CRJ pilots in ORD and MSP etc, the comparative pilot descriptions of Mesa, Gulfstream and other such companies has finally circulated all across the US from the UND (Grand Forks, N.D.) aviation program to Embry Riddle, and most places in between. Have the parents who forked out (no pun intended) the heap$ of extra money for the expensive aviation training also become enlightened about the reality out in the real world of US aviation? How about those who are ready to begin spending these huge piles now? |
Hi!
Student pilot starts in the US have been down by about 50% in the last 5 years. I belive people have been hearing about the low pay of beginning pilots, and the high cost of training, and many of them that would've begun training are not doing so now. Cessna's new LSA aircraft will help this situation significantly. The cost per flight hour will go way down, because the capital cost of the aircraft, maintenance and, especially fuel, will be much lower. I think that airlines will be forced to start Ab-Initio training, regardless of the positive effects of the Cessna LSA. cliff KYIP |
Given the state of the industry, would you really consider a career in the airlines??? Highly experienced foreign pilots?? Most of them have better jobs than are available in the USA
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"There's no shortage. Flight schools and businesses that sell employment such as Air, Inc love to spread those rumors...but there's no pilot shortage. There never was. Don't get sucked into that noise."
Not quite sure that is true, look around you, not just in the US, but the rest of the world. Contracts companies are scrambling to find qualified crews, majors in the US are recalling, but 1 in 3 has already found another job and is intending to stay in place. China is facing a shortage, as is the ME and it probably will grow worse as time progresses. Countries aound the world has been enioying the surplus of US and EU pilots, but that is about to come to a grinding halt, if it hasn't already. Heck, Cathay is hiring DEC as is KAL, rather unusual I think most would agree. The hope for us all, is that this will drive wages UP. Kind regards, |
RE: Pilot shortage
There is a pilot shortage but only for experianced pilots. period. As previously stated young pilots still lining the docks in Canada for a slave labour job.
Listen, the flight schools are limited on new pilots becuase even if a kid wants to fly, and I mean is passioante about flying, in this economy he/she is going to way the salary levels, the cost of training, and the job propsects and give it a miss. Young people want to know that their education will lead to a good paying job. They see higher education from its return on investment potential. Generation Y demands this, and when they can work in the oil patch in Canada, right after graduating from a 2 year technical diploma and make a starting wage THAT ONLY A SENIOR AIRLINE CAPTAIN MAKES AFTER 25 YEARS. Why would they bother? I had to work docks to get my start, and I would tell my kid not to bother when he can make $120,000 per year starting in the oil patch in Alberta. Also, the North American attitude towards pilot progression is the dark ages. We always demand experiance, but let me be blunt. The amount of "experianced" old Captains I have flown with in canada that are lazy, unprofessional ,and sloppy is staggering. Our air force trains pilots ab initio to fly F-18's and European airlines train ab initio for airlines while maintaining an air safety record every bit as good as North American airlines (better in fact.) North American pilots have allowed the "cheap labour new hire" concept, and every pilot on this forum that said " I had to work the docks until I got my way up the ladder" is just as guilty of promoting a low waged pilot industry as the employers are. Junior pilots should be considered trained professionals worthy of a decent living wage. They need to become experianced yes, but how many pilots on this forum refer to them as "wannabes" - Lose the attitude Mr. EX wannabes, becuase someone allowed us all to advance. The Europeans consider their junior pilots as professionals, to be molded with the right training, we consider our junior pilots as cheap garbage, and that attitude, follows North American pilots through employment for much of their careers until they are seniored. The fault behind low wages in the aviation industry lies on each of our shoulders, for taking an outdated and un intellectual approach like " I did it,so can they" which proves NOTHING! Any idiot can load cargo, it proves nothing, and does make for a better pilot. |
The so-called "shortage" of experienced pilots in the USA is somewhat overstated. It may become more accurate an assertion in the future, but for now, there are very few incentives to join a US airline. Pay, schedule and benefits for first year pilots are a joke. They are obviously not too desperate for new pilots yet. They have more trouble finding ramp agents for similar pay. The guys applying to the majors these days need rich wives willing to support their hobby.
Best, |
Hi!
There is a shortage of experienced pilots: -Delta didn't get anywhere near the number of military applicants they were expecting. -SWA lowered their requirements from 1300 to 1000 -UAL expected a LOT more applicants: ]...word around the DEN training center (called "TK" by UA peeps) is that there were only 600 apps after the first 3 days - they were expecting 3000+. -Kalitta (747s) just raised their pay 40% and went to Home Basing -USA 3000 lowered their mins from 5,000 TT to 4,000 TT -Emirates deleted their max age restriction for applicants, and raised their retirement age to 65. -JAR (Europe) is examining age 70 and is relaxing their licensing standards There is a MASSIVE shortage of inexperienced pilots: -ALL the regional US airlines have drastically lowered their mins, some don't have ANY hourly mins -Some regionals are hiring guys WITHOUT their Commercial license (I had my ATP, the highest US rating 10 years ago and the Regionals said I was UNQUALIFIED) -Most regionals are cancelling flights left and right because of a shortage of crews -Many regionals are increasing pay, paying signing bonuses and even asking their unions for MORE PAY for new hires in a desperate attempt to recruit pilots. cliff KLRD |
Yesterday on the 'staff' shuttle, I sat next to a Line Check Airman who flies CRJs.
What he described to me, with no exaggeration, would have been unbelievable, if I had not heard it from him. Not only is he avoiding any OE/IOE trips with brand-new FOs, he refused to fly over his monthly max, even after the company offered to pay him time and a half, in order to make such flying avoidable. He claimed that due to some strange 'attitude problems' (?) (my words) among some IP or simulator Check Airmen, most of the pilots who left ACA and went there failed training or checking. And many had about 2,000 hours in the same jet-the CRJ. I have heard other stories, but not first person, about the company's sim. training. Maybe the ACA guys came over before this serious recruiting problem/shortage began? It is possible for a pilot trainee to have an attitude problem or adjustment problems to new, different expectations. But based upon what he learned, he could not figure out why such a large fraction did not receive better treatment. I was unable to comprehend why such problems were allowed to exist, unless the people in charge of their training, or budgets, are totally arrogant (which would not surprise me..) or just all "out of their league", maybe both. Maybe the head Training Captain has almost no authority? If not, why is he staying in the job? If he has real authority, why is he allowed to operate such a department? If he can not get a large fraction of new-hires through training, why does the FAA allow their syllabus allowed to remain as it is? These questions are based upon the Check Airman's comments to me. What a nightmare for these eager, naive young aviators. One major problems at this and some airlines appears to be the lack of positive, realistic, progressive training (one large airline made superb, major changes over the years to its A-320 training and is able to get almost all students through the syllabus). As for training, one of our pilots who was recalled from furlough this winter told me that he was really disappointed with his CRJ training at Chautauqua. Anyway, the guy on the shuttle claimed that with pay about as bad as that at Mesa, their recruiting and training problems are no surprise to anybody. As an interesting side-note: A brand-new FO during IOE said "WHEE!" The Check Airman asked "What?" The very brand-new pilot, being second-in-command on a jet (which he might immediately operate into ATL, ORD, LGA, JFK, BOS, LAX etc) said that he had never before flown through a cloud! Some new-hires were sent away, even after doing ok up to that point, because they had no multi-engine rating! Not even with the center-line thrust restriction. He stated that if the FAA has sat in on a certain check ride, the young applicant might have had the center-line restriction, which would have allowed him to continue training. |
Maybe I missed something...but some on IOE had no me rating, or during sim training???
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USav8or:
Those were his words, not mine, on the 'staff shuttle' to the airport. He claimed that if an FAA Check Airman (airline designee?) had been present, that one guy reportedly could have received a 'centerline-thrust' multi-engine, in order to finish training and then earn the true multi-engine. I've never instructed etc so have no idea what the regs allow, but assumed that his stories were accurate and valid. Off the topic. Our Lead Flight Attendant's husband is new at Mesaba. Does anybody in PpruneLand know how long to upgrade at Mesaba if one's total hours are about 600, including some Instructor experience? Total PIC is normally the main limitation. |
Upgrade time at Mesaba is currently running at approximately three years, and likely to get shorter due to their fleet expansion. By no means the quickest upgrade in the US regionals, but a nice place to work, from what I've heard.
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Pilot Shortage Misnomer !
US Pilot shortage is more hype than fact. We train the highest number of pilots in the shortest period of time and supply them all over the world.
Currently, the mins have dropped to 250hrs at some regionals and it won't be long before the majors will be hiring 500hr guys. Nevertheless, if push comes to shove , the H1 visa will be used to accomodate foreign pilots, who are currently working as Pt91/135 pilots with thousands of hours of experience. |
The U.S. has been too slow to raise the age limit to the 65 international standard. This has exaggerated the pilot shortage to a degree that is now a major safety concern.
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Many factors in "USA pilot shortage"...
I had a career with PanAm in USA, hired in 1968, until the 1991 bankruptcy, this with long layoff period 1972-1982, when I was forced to fly overseas, or instructing at the PanAm academy. There is no single factor responsible for the "shortage" of pilots, there are many of them.
xxx The last posting here mentions age 60 retirement, one of the reasons. This applied to pilots (not flight engineers, who could continue to fly with NO age limit whatsoever). I flew with "old farts" with various foreign air carriers, in my F/O days, and still remember them as the most competent and experienced captains I ever flew with. My recommendation would be to make age retirement function of the issuance of a 1st class medical only, this maybe with the following limitations: only one pilot over age 60 to operate in a cockpit crew, and no transition to other type aircraft after age 60 (as you do not teach "old dogs new tricks"). xxx The culture of "big airplane, big salary" in the USA. Let me explain... Upgrade to captain and transition to bigger planes is function of seniority with USA air carriers... all ok... but a problem, I saw when I was with PanAm, and with my friends who were with other airlines. An example... a friend with UAL, now retired, who got hired in 1968... xxx He trained, in sequence, from F/E 727, to F/E 720, to F/E DC-8, to F/O 727, F/O DC-8, then F/E DC-10, then F/O 727 again, then F/O DC-10, then capt. 737, capt. 727, capt. DC-10, then finally capt. 747... spending some unproductive 36 months in training during his career... besides moving 3 times, suffering 2 divorces, and years of commuting between domicile and bases, spending nights of "reserve" in cheap motels next to noisy airports. Why this... salary structure... besides having higher salary when you upgrade to F/O and captain, the bigger the plane, the more money... xxx When I was with PanAm, I lived in the Los Angeles area. I never got based at LAX (my first choice, near home) or SFO (my second choice, easy commute). I was based at JFK or MIA. Do you know where pilots who did bid LAX or SFO lived...? New York, New Jersey, Connecticut, Massachusets etc... These gentlemen loved to commute for the extra few dollars to fly bigger airplanes on longer Pacific sectors... xxx Another friend, KLM, got hired in 1971, as F/O DC-9, then DC-10 F/O, then DC-10 captain, then retired as MD-11 captain. Compared to my UAL buddy, he probably spent very little unproductive time in training, and certainly was highly experienced with 30 years (20,000 hrs?) on DC-10/MD-11 types... With KLM, the size of plane you fly has very little to do with your salary. Salary increases come with position and longevity based on date of hire... xxx Pilot shortage... ok... airlines in USA do not hire "direct entry captains", because of union contracts, except maybe 747 operators like Evergreen or Kalitta... (and these two for what salary?). A PanAm colleague joined Kalitta in 1994, as 747 captain. His first year salary was around $50,000. He retired fairly recently (2003), he never exceeded $85,000 during his Kalitta career. xxx No wonder I bailed out of USA in 1992 for the "third world", and happy I did. Here in Argentina, senior pilots love the 737 and MD-80, working 18 days a month, and be home almost every night... They have 30 yrs seniority, and make double salary than myself, 747 pilot, with my 13 yrs. Besides that, I spend 7 to 10 nights away from home each month... on top of being in the office or classrooms on the days I do not fly, to make a little extra money. xxx In view of all this, I have no sympathy for USA operators, and certainly not for regionals, who remain to me, glorified "135" commuter carriers. If given to be age 25 again, I could not afford the salaries offered to new hires, especially having disbursed a fortune to get a type rating on a little jet... In the old days, airlines hired F/Os or F/Es with a CPL/IR, which in the late 1960s, was a $5,000 investment... xxx Consider a career in hamburger sales, and buy yourself a McDonald franchise, rather than throwing your parent's hard earned money in a CRJ type rating. The only winners are these "airline type rating schools" who must laugh their way to the bank... Let the airlines cancel their flights, short of pilots... and insist they double their wages. In 1968, gasoline was 29 cents a gallon, I filled-up my Corvair with $3.oo, and gave 25 cents tip to the attendant who cleaned my windshield, checked my oil, and verified the tire pressures. xxx :) Happy contrails |
usa
Very informative reading belargusa,I follow this thread quite closely as I have quite a few buddies flying in the USA.
regards |
Very interesting indeed. Certainly has me wondering whether I should even try to stay up here in the US, return back home to the Caribbean, or simply try somewhere else altogether. hmmmmmm:hmm:
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Young Pilot, you will do much better taking your ratings back to the Caribbean and getting a job, where you will be treated and paid like a professional. Here in the US, it really makes no sence. BelArgUSA has said it all. Pilots seem to come a dime a dozzen here in the USA and they are treated like day labourers. Imagine going for a job interview and being told that congratulations you got the job, now pay us 12000 dollars to put you on the aircraft to fly???? and a lot of the young kids we have these days jump at this. "shiny jet syndrone". why will i want to pay some one to hire be to do a job i trained for with about $50000 should this not be the other way around? Pilots and wannabes are their own worst enemy. if the airlines dont have anyone to fly, believe me they will first review this 1st yr officers slave wage then start paying for your type and better working conditions and all this pilot mills aka aviation academies that milk these souls for $70000 to $95000 for a job that pays you $19000-$23000 your first year????? how do you survive?? the human spirit is so..... and you already have a college degree??
The shortage is all hype, when it really hurts CEOs of Airlines will stop taking $600000 a year and FO $20000 and spread the wealth around and pay professional what they are really worth. |
Sobering $$$ facts -
A few examples -
xxx In 1969, the first year salary of a F/O or F/E (727-DC9) was some $12,000, and at the time, sharing an apartment was $150/mo. and a dinner was $10... You had invested $5,000 for a CPL/IR... and the second year pay was double, some $25,000. Your per-diem was $24/day. I remember my liability insurance for my little Corvair was $200/year, and I did mention the gasoline at 29 cents a gallon... xxx 2007... You pay near $3.oo a gallon for gas, and $600+ for liability insurance, and your shared apartment is $500/month in some cities. A breakfast will be $10+ and a dinner will be $20... Yet your salary would be $20,000 a year to be a F/O on CRJ... (and you paid some $60,000+ to get there)... a very poor investment in a career, indeed. xxx And you fly a few years for a regional (I repeat, glorified "135" operator) with a DAL or UAL emblem on the tail, but you are not working for these major carriers (yet)... so you have to apply with these Delta or United, the day you have 2 or 3,000 hrs, to hear that after being a new hire again, you will be paid the first year pay, as 737 F/O, at less than $24,000 (again) until you get ALPA wages on the second year. xxx Factor-in the possible furloughs, like I had. All it takes, is Osama Bin Laden putting a threat on DisneyWorld destruction by terrorism, and "whop", you and 5,000 of your colleagues will be without work. Try to get a "corporate" pilot job, with 5,000 hrs F/O time, as you are to them, with no experience on a Gulfstream V (that means "5", not "Victor") and no experience in carrying a Gucci pilot bag, and unable to spell Moët & Chandon champagne at the FBO. Airline pilots are not welcome in the corporate world. Maybe you will then find a job as CFI, (and pay near $10,000 to get a CFI certificate)... Of course, you could also drive a Yellow Cab... and fake a Russian or Mexican accent. xxx I remember 1997, visiting an old time friend, who just had retired as one of the most senior 747-400 UAL captain... and who was also operator, and "outright owner" (wow) of a fleet of Learjets, a few Gulfstreams and a couple of 727-100s (these operated with VIP interior)... He asked me about Argentina, and my job there, and my wages, and how much I was flying per year... with a smile... Then, I asked him "Tell me, what was your pay with United these last years...?" - "My pay... salary was $238,000/yr..." - (Then I asked how much flying that was per year) - his answer was - "Oh, I flew very little, as I have to care about my FBO and my Bizjets here... I did bid reserve and flew about 100 hrs/yr... just to stay current..." - So in effect, my dear friend was paid $238,000/yr for 100 hrs, or... $2,380 per hr if my advanced mathematics are correct... xxx But outside of his luxury FBO, I knew kids with licenses crying for a job at $12/hr as CFI, or $20/hr to raise the gear of a Learjet... At times, I admire and respect Che Guevara... xxx Another word about the Kalittas and the Evergreens... Oh, you pilots (say the CEOs), we need to keep pilot wages low, because we are competing against the FedEx and the UPS cargo carriers... OK, fine, until you learn that the Kalittas and the Evergreens sell the ton/kilometers at the same price as the FedEx and UPS they are "competing with"... xxx In the 1980s, suffering my PanAm layoff, I flew for ONA/UACI as a 707 then DC8 captain, based in Jeddah, Saudia ACMI, and enjoying the camels and prayer times... and saying "Insh'Allah" for my estimates... Our CEO was the third highest paid airline executive in the USA airline industry, after the AA CEO (C.R. Smith) and DAL (cannot recall his name). xxx If you love planes so much, make it like my dentist, he owns a superb SF260 Siai-Marchetti, and enjoys week-ends with his lady-friends at the best resorts in Argentina, Brazil, Chile, or Uruguay. I trade I/R instruction for dental work... and after 100 hrs dual, he stills needs a block of airspace for his ATC assigned levels... I used to own a little Piper L-21C, I had to sell it, could not afford it with my 747 captain salary... xxx :) Happy contrails |
Sobering $$$$
I will say that this is one of the most informative threads for young(er) pilots to think about for their future careers.
I myself had 18 years in the US with USAirways. Did the flight instructor thing before getting the chance to fly sched 135 before that. Then came 911, and the first bankruptcy. The second shoe fell when the second bankruptcy was imminent, and the salery which up till then was fairly good was again lowered. I lost my seat in the airplane I was flying twice, before saying that enough was enough. The loss of the pension that had been hard fought over many years and contracts was also gone like the wind. If I had stayed like most of my new hire class, I would be looking at still being in the right seat of a 320/737 with now going on 22 years with the company. Now I have to fly for a company I had not even heard of till they started buying airplanes with all of the oil money the country has. And this place is 6500nm from home. Got to admit it though, I have become very comfortable here and in no way will I return to the "Good ole USA" for a job in anytime in the future. I truely see no future for the airline industry with pay that is now so prevelent. How can the new pilot justify paying for the ratings that are required just to get that first job. And then fly till he drops from fatigue. I have no idea why anyone would still want to be an "airline" pilot when you could do as BelarqUSA says and get a job that pays something decent and buy your own airplane. Your still in Aviation, but on your terms and not some cutthroat scumbags. I had all of the gold stars in my eyes growing up and wanted to see the world. I still am, but now from the Mid-east and not from home. And 95% of the guy's and now girls here, are also in the same boat. For every story about the guy that is a wide body captain by the time he was 35, there are twice as many more that are not there. (maybe even more) Use the brain in your head and make a life for yourself that does not include airline flying for a living. My 2 cent worth |
I think what we're dealing with here is not a "shortage" as such, but something much more fundamental. The profession has been beaten down so much that it's simply no longer attractive. The experienced people who've been trough 2-3 (4, 5, 6?) furloughs are pretty well fed up and no longer want any part of this business, while young people who would be making up the future of the trade are finding much more attractive options in any number of fields. Just in the area I live in, our local airport went from 7 FBOs to only one, while a very well-known school at another nearby field closed down this past March after dropping down to only 10 (!) students.
So, what does all this mean? It seems to me airlines (and not just them) will in a few years find themselves in a real bind. The experienced people still won't be coming back, and there simply won't be any new people, if flight school enrollment continues to decline the way it has been. At that point, my hope is the good old law of supply and demand will finally kick in and we'll finally start seeing a climb in flight crew pay and benefits. I could be wrong. |
You won't be seeing any increase in flight crew pay and benefits; rather just the opposite. The top pay is only at FedEx and at UPS; pilots at the rest of the "legacy" carriers are getting squeezed not only on pay, but on benefits, including pensions. Relentless downward pressure on wages and benefits; and a squeeze for ever more flight and duty times has become practical reality. At slave driving outfits like Ryan Air, crews actually have to pay for coffee. Imagine that! Pilots have become like "blue collar" workers; bus/truck drivers with wings. In fact, many long haul truck drivers make more money than copilots at low cost carriers.
And there is no real shortage of pilots, only a shortage of very experienced, high time pilots. :ooh: |
Baba70, I really appreciate the reply. It's just so confusing when you have your fellow brothers telling you to stay in the US, but others like you are saying it's best to return to the region:confused:. I guess if the most I can do is remain up here for an extra yr after next May to flight instruct (visa restrictions/opt), I might as well not push for anything else.
Cheers :ok: |
From the best market to the worst.
With Jobs Scarce, U.S. Pilots
>Sign On At Foreign Airlines > > >By Susan Carey and Bruce Stanley > >From The Wall Street Journal Online > >Nearly two years ago, at age 51, Brian Murray took early retirement >from US Airways. The pilot was outraged by the airline's termination >of his pension plan and worried about his future with a carrier >sliding toward bankruptcy court for the second time. > >But Capt. Murray's flying career was far from over. Today he lives >in Dubai and flies wide-body Airbus A330s for fast-growing Emirates >Airlines, winging to exotic destinations in Europe, Africa and Asia. >He's home more than he ever was at US Airways, and his total >compensation package -- including health care, housing allowance, >retirement plan and vacation -- is superior. He says his wife and >children enjoy living in the United Arab Emirates, and "from a >professional standpoint, it couldn't be better." > >In a new twist on global outsourcing, a flock of U.S. pilots is >fleeing the depressed North American airline industry to work in far >reaches of the world where aviation is booming. After the 2001 >terrorist attacks stifled air travel and sent the U.S. industry into >its deepest decline ever, more than 10,000 U.S. pilots were laid >off, and many more took early retirement. Despite subsequent hiring >by a few healthy carriers, including Southwest Airlines, thousands >haven't been able to find new flying jobs at their old pay grades. > >At the same time, the industry is expanding rapidly in China, India, >Southeast Asia and the Middle East. As these regions have grown more >affluent and loosened aviation restrictions, travel demand has >soared. New airlines have started up, existing carriers are adding >routes, and hundreds of new jets are on order. > >So, like British and Australian pilots who long have plied their >trade wherever they find work, more Yanks are taking their skills >offshore. They are doing so despite trepidations about moving >families, flying on short-term contracts, and sometimes giving up >union rights to be called back to work by U.S. carriers according to >seniority. > >U.S. pilots are working as far afield as Bolivia, China, Qatar and >Vietnam. Hong Kong-based Cathay Pacific Airways and Singapore >Airlines are hiring more Americans, as are carriers in Taiwan and >South Korea, and increasingly, in India. > >The diaspora is one symptom of a growing global shortage of >well-trained commercial pilots. Aerospace giant Boeing Co. estimates >the global jet fleet will grow to more than 35,000 airplanes in >2024, from fewer than 17,000 in 2004. Boeing pegs demand for new >pilots at nearly 18,000 a year through 2024. China alone will need >more than 35,000 new pilots over 20 years, and the rest of Asia will >need 56,500, the company estimates. Many countries are currently >unable to train enough pilots at home. > >The result: a global bazaar where experienced pilots go to the >highest bidder. Norwegians and Venezuelans are flying in China, >Egyptians and Russians in India, Jamaicans and Iranians for a >Japanese carrier. Four out of five pilots at Qatar Airways are >foreign. More than 70 Philippine Airlines pilots have quit since >2003 for better-paying jobs elsewhere. Etihad Airways, a new airline >based in Abu Dhabi, says its No. 1 source of pilots is Malaysia. >India's fleet of startup carriers was so plagued by pilot poaching >that the government last year began requiring pilots to serve at >least six months at one carrier before moving on. > >G.R. Gopinath, managing director for Air Deccan, a two-year-old >budget airline in India, says he has been recruiting a dozen pilots >a month from overseas. "If Indian software engineers can work in the >U.S., their pilots can come and work here," he says. "It's reverse >body-shopping." Pilot job fairs in the U.S. have begun attracting >recruiters for Chinese and Indian startups, according to Kit Darby, >president of Air Inc., a placement firm. > >The hiring frenzy has led to some safety concerns. English is the >industry's world-wide language. Putting two pilots with different >native languages in the same cockpit, where they might have to >interact with an air-traffic controller whose native tongue is >different still, can lead to problems, especially in emergencies, >contends Dennis Dolan, a retired Delta Air Lines captain and >president of the U.K.-based International Federation of Air Line >Pilots' Associations, which represents pilot unions and associations >in 95 countries. > >The International Civil Aviation Organization, an agency of the >United Nations, intends in 2008 to begin English-proficiency testing >of pilots and air-traffic controllers who handle international >flights. India proposed that measure after a 1996 accident in which >the flight crew of a Kazakh Airways jet misunderstood an Indian >controller's instructions, leading to a midair collision with a >Saudi Arabian Airlines plane near New Delhi. India also cited the >1995 crash of an American Airlines jet near Cali, Colombia, in which >miscommunication between a Colombian controller and a U.S. crew was >a contributing factor. > >Jim Burin, director of technical programs for the Alexandria, >Va.-based Flight Safety Foundation, an international nonprofit >group, points to another safety concern. "In some cultures, it's not >the place of the second-in-command to question the >first-in-command," he says. That could interfere with the co-pilot's >role as a check on the captain, who commands the flight. > >One pilot who moved from a U.S. airline to a national carrier in >Southeast Asia says that informational updates on safety at his new >employer arrive late or not at all, and that little attention is >paid to punctuality or how many hours pilots work. "Training for the >most part is far from the quality I was used to in the U.S.," says >the 55-year-old captain, who asked not to be identified for fear of >angering his employer. He adds that he likes the lifestyle and finds >the job "relatively easy." > >Capt. Murray, who flies out of Dubai, says safety standards are high >at Emirates, and its 1,350 pilots from 70 nations speak fluent >English. He says pilots are "treated with respect in this part of >the world. We're driven to work. We're put in four- and five-star >hotels, on the concierge floors. Captains are treated as vice >presidents of the organization." > >Some out-of-work U.S. pilots balk at going overseas for family >reasons. Some hope to be recalled by U.S. carriers and don't want to >give up their seniority rights. Duane Woerth, president of the Air >Line Pilots Association, a U.S. union, says foreign carriers are >interested in senior pilots, not junior ones. He worries about the >"brain drain" and whether foreign carriers are using U.S. pilots >only temporarily until they can staff up with their own citizens. >But "our guys are warming up to it," he says. "This one looks like a >permanent structural shift." > >Andrew Baedke, who was furloughed by Northwest Airlines after Sept. >11, has worked for the past three years as a Honolulu-based 747 >first officer, or co-pilot, for Jalways, a subsidiary of Japan >Airlines. "A lot of my [laid-off] friends are sitting at home or >working for Home Depot," says Mr. Baedke, who is 36 years old. "I'm >glad to have this job. It's extremely stable." > >One reason for the pilot shortage is that developing nations aren't >training enough of them at home. There are not enough flight schools >in the world to meet demand, says Brent Mills, the chief executive >officer of Spartan College of Aeronautics and Technology, a flight >academy in Tulsa, Okla., that plans to open schools in India with a >local partner in the next year. It takes many years for a college >graduate to accumulate sufficient flight training and commercial >flying hours to climb the professional ladder from novice to first >officer to captain. > >Some nations, such as Japan and Ethiopia, have raised the mandatory >retirement age for commercial pilots to alleviate the shortage. >ICAO, the U.N. agency, will recommend later this year that the age >be raised to 65 from 60, although member nations will not be >required to do so. > >The Chinese government runs a school in Sichuan province that >graduated 307 novice pilots last year. China Southern Airlines, the >nation's largest carrier by fleet size, has its own school in >Australia. In 2004, four Chinese investors opened Beijing PanAm >International Aviation Academy, which 240 students now attend. > >Nevertheless, Gao Hongfeng, deputy director of the Civil Aviation >Administration of China, says there are almost enough native pilots >to staff the new airplanes China has on order, but it will be >difficult for the nation to train enough "mature captains" quickly. > >Chinese airlines are filling in with expatriates. Tim Shattock, >chief executive of Parc Aviation Ltd., a Dublin firm that leases >pilots to airlines, says "our intelligence says there are 120 to 150 >foreign pilots in mainland China." > >India counts more. Deregulation has spawned startup airlines, an >influx of international flights, and 20% annual passenger growth. >India expects to need 2,500 new pilots by 2010. At Jet Airways, the >nation's largest private carrier, 111 of its 685 pilots are foreign. >Air Deccan has 75 foreigners among its 250 pilots, and is setting up >its own flight school in Bangalore. > >Compensation for the foreign gigs varies widely. But it is often >better than what U.S. pilots can earn at home, where pay levels and >benefits have been reduced by bankruptcy filings and restructurings. >Richard Paul, an 18-year US Airways veteran who was bumped from >captain to first officer during one round of layoffs, says he plans >to quit soon and report for training to fly cargo at a large Asian >carrier he declines to identify. The 46-year-old pilot says he will >start as a first officer, but "in four or five years, I'll probably >be a captain on a 747 and make twice as much" as the $72,000 a year >he currently earns. > >India's Air Deccan is offering $8,000 to $15,000 a month to foreign >captains, according to Mr. Gopinath, the managing director. A >captain in the U.S. on Northwest's smallest jet earns about $9,000 a >month, while a captain on United Airlines's largest plane earns >about $15,000, according to a recent survey by Air Inc. > >American Craig Harnden, formerly a pilot for now-defunct Eastern >Airlines, has worked overseas since 1990 for Saudi Arabian Airlines, >Thai Airways International and now Singapore Airlines. "If I had >known what I know now, I would probably have left Eastern and gone >overseas a lot earlier," says the 59-year-old Miami native, who >lives in Singapore. "But we didn't leave the airlines because of the >seniority system." > >William Goodwin left the U.S. in 1994 after working for two airlines >that went under and a third that was acquired. He says he nearly >doubled his pay by moving to Taiwan to captain 767s for Taipei-based >EVA Air. "It was the smartest thing I've ever done," he says. He >jumped to Korean Air in 2000, where as a captain of 747s he earns >$152,000 a year after Korean taxes. The 54-year-old pilot says he >hopes to stay until he retires at 60. > >Mr. Baedke, the former Northwest pilot who now flies out of Honolulu >for Jalways under a crew-leasing contract, says he's trying to >spread the word to other American pilots. Many of his pilot friends, >he says, were laid off after 9/11 and have not yet been called back. > >As a first officer, Mr. Baedke earns $100 an hour, or $105,000 last >year. He expects to begin training next month to become a captain, a >process he says could take 2.5 years. If he succeeds, his pay will >climb to $150 an hour for the first 50 hours flown each month, and >$180 an hour for anything exceeding that. > >He no longer gives much thought to returning to Northwest. "Even if >I had a chance to go back, I think I'd be at [a regional subsidiary] >as a first officer, earning $23 an hour," he says. "There's no >point." |
So how's that 767 treating you?
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There are three ladies in my life. My wife, my daughter and the 767 and the later one is the only one I can control :ugh:
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