USA Pilot Shortage
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USA Pilot Shortage
Airline expansion
Demand for pilots sky-high
Regional carriers fuel much of the market; some worry that companies may lower standards
By Paul Beebe
The Salt Lake Tribune
Article Last Updated: 02/07/2007 12:50:58 PM MST
Fresh on the heels of hiring 610 pilots last year, SkyWest Airlines intends to hire another 700 this year to keep even with the regional carrier's snowballing growth.
It will be a daunting task. Regionals are flourishing as they pick up less-profitable and shorter routes that national carriers no longer want to fly. The consequence is a shortage of commercial pilots, which some in the industry predict could reach a crisis level and others say has compelled some airlines to lower their hiring standards closer to government minimums in order to fill seats in their cockpits.
"We are looking nationwide. We have a full-court press throughout the system," said Necia Clark-Mantle, vice president of people for St. George-based SkyWest. "The market in general is pretty difficult."
SkyWest executives say the airline has not lowered its hiring benchmarks. Its applicants need 1,000 hours of flying time, including 100 hours piloting multi-engine airplanes in order to get a job interview, and its typical candidate has 1,800 hours of experience. The Federal Aviation Administration requires 250 hours of flight time for a commercial license.
"Anything above and beyond what is stated [in FAA rules] is a business decision on the part of the airline," FAA spokesman Les Dorr said.
Because SkyWest is unwilling to relax its requirements, it must work harder than some airlines to hire qualified pilots.
Great Lakes Airlines demands 750 hours and is not feeling a shortage of acceptable candidates, said Monica Taylor, a spokeswoman for the Cheyenne, Wyo.-based regional carrier. American Eagle, which is hiring 30 to 60 pilots a month, accepts as few as 400 hours if applicants complete pilot training at approved flight schools, spokesman Dave Jackson said. American Eagle is a subsidiary of AMR Corp., which also owns American Airlines.
SkyWest has posted help-wanted notices on its Web site, and it will conduct pilot career fairs in Salt Lake City and seven other cities this month. The airline wants to talk to pilots who fly for other regionals or who have been furloughed by bigger carriers. And it's combing through university aviation programs, looking for acceptable candidates.
There might be no time like the present to become a pilot for hire. Airlines hired about 8,500 aviators last year, and the pace should continue at that level or higher for the next 10 years, according to AIR Inc., which tracks pilot hiring. Aerospace giant Boeing Co. estimates the global appetite for new pilots at 17,000 a year through 2024.
"All I can say is it's the best time to get into the industry," said Mike Kraus, program director for the aviation studies program at Westminster College, which graduates about 110 commercial pilots a year, ready for the job market. "When you are born sometimes controls your destiny and opportunities."
The remarkable turnaround of the airline industry - whose fortunes ebbed after 9/11 - is behind much of the demand for pilots, said Kip Darby, president of Atlanta-based AIR. Much of the industry is returning to profitability after wresting huge pay and benefits concessions from employees, shedding expensive retirement programs and shifting more flying to contract carriers such as SkyWest. Rising fares and falling jet fuel prices are helping, too.
At the same time, the military - traditionally one of the best sources of commercial pilots - is retaining more of its aviators. And many pilots who leave the military are choosing other careers, underlining the instability in the airline industry that has pushed many carriers to extract big pay and benefit cuts from their employees.
"The next big crisis is a lack of qualified crews," said Ed Thiel, a Delta Air Lines captain and member of the executive council of the Delta unit of the Air Line Pilots Association. "The airlines are having difficulty finding qualified applicants. There are not as many people coming out of the military route, and it's almost prohibitively expensive to go through the civilian route, while the career has degraded to the point where it doesn't make sense to go into the business."
Aspiring pilots who enroll in aeronautical colleges can expect big tuition bills. An undergraduate degree at Embry-Riddle Aeronautical University in Florida costs almost $100,000. Thiel said nonacademic routes to a job at a major airline can be as expensive and take 10 years to complete.
All the same, a job isn't hard to find after a pilot earns a commercial license.
Two years ago, Frank Ayers, chairman of Embry-Riddle's flight department, was able to keep graduates on as flight instructors for a couple of years before they landed a job flying for a regional airline or other employer.
"I'm lucky now if I keep someone six months," Ayers said. "Don't get me wrong; it's a good problem to have. Despite all the bankruptcies, it appears that the increased demand for air travel is solid. Airlines have finished downsizing and have figured out how to fly profitably."
Analysts are betting that most airlines will report strong earnings in 2007. Ray Neidl of Calyon Securities thinks that American Airlines could earn earn $4.06 per share, or about $889 million, with United Airlines earning $4.80, or abut $531 million. SkyWest is expected to be the most profitable regional carrier, earning $2.71 a share, or close to $173 million, this year.
"There is a relationship between airline profits and hiring," AIR's Darby said. He believes that some airlines will earn as much as $1 billion a year as their profitability builds during the rest of the decade. "If that relationship holds true, we will see a lot of hiring."
The pilot hiring that SkyWest is undertaking is part of a broader plan to expand its 10,000-employee work force by up to 4,000 workers this year. In part, turnover is pushing the airline to accelerate pilot hiring. Regionals historically have been where young pilots assemble enough flying experience to move to bigger airlines.
About 10 percent of SkyWest's pilots leave the company each year. Some pack it in when they reach age 60. (Last week, the FAA said it would propose raising the compulsory retirement age to 65.) Others leave for jobs at other airlines, said Camille Ence, manager of pilot recruitment.
Most pilots who leave hope to hire on at national airlines and air cargo companies, which pay more and give better benefits, Darby said. FedEx pays an Airbus A380 captain with 10 years of experience $17,464 a month, according to WillFlyForFood.cc, a Web site that compares pilot pay. An American Airlines captain flying a Boeing 767 earns $11,008 a month. SkyWest jet captains with a decade of experience earn about $3,000 a month. First officers are paid $1,425 a month, according to WillFlyForFood.
Although some bankrupt carriers have turned their retirement programs over to the government Pension Benefit Guarantee Corp., most retirement packages at the bigger airlines are still defined-benefit programs instead of 401(k) programs. Bigger airlines also provide more rest time between flights, Darby said.
The key reason why SkyWest must hire hundreds of new pilots this year is its growing alliance with Delta. In November, Delta selected SkyWest Inc. to take over some of the regional flying business operated by its Comair subsidiary. This month, Delta will shift the flying of 12 Canadair regional jets to SkyWest, The company also is waiting to hear whether Delta will award it another 131 Comair jets. Each aircraft needs a rotation of nine pilots.
Delta also granted eight of the 70-seat jets to SkyWest when it bought Atlantic Southeast Airlines in September 2005. Those aircraft are scheduled to be delivered between now and May.
It is getting crazy in the US, Big Big pilot shortage for regional airlines FO, CFI and Part 135 operatores.
2007 has been a very good year so far and I hope it keep going
Demand for pilots sky-high
Regional carriers fuel much of the market; some worry that companies may lower standards
By Paul Beebe
The Salt Lake Tribune
Article Last Updated: 02/07/2007 12:50:58 PM MST
Fresh on the heels of hiring 610 pilots last year, SkyWest Airlines intends to hire another 700 this year to keep even with the regional carrier's snowballing growth.
It will be a daunting task. Regionals are flourishing as they pick up less-profitable and shorter routes that national carriers no longer want to fly. The consequence is a shortage of commercial pilots, which some in the industry predict could reach a crisis level and others say has compelled some airlines to lower their hiring standards closer to government minimums in order to fill seats in their cockpits.
"We are looking nationwide. We have a full-court press throughout the system," said Necia Clark-Mantle, vice president of people for St. George-based SkyWest. "The market in general is pretty difficult."
SkyWest executives say the airline has not lowered its hiring benchmarks. Its applicants need 1,000 hours of flying time, including 100 hours piloting multi-engine airplanes in order to get a job interview, and its typical candidate has 1,800 hours of experience. The Federal Aviation Administration requires 250 hours of flight time for a commercial license.
"Anything above and beyond what is stated [in FAA rules] is a business decision on the part of the airline," FAA spokesman Les Dorr said.
Because SkyWest is unwilling to relax its requirements, it must work harder than some airlines to hire qualified pilots.
Great Lakes Airlines demands 750 hours and is not feeling a shortage of acceptable candidates, said Monica Taylor, a spokeswoman for the Cheyenne, Wyo.-based regional carrier. American Eagle, which is hiring 30 to 60 pilots a month, accepts as few as 400 hours if applicants complete pilot training at approved flight schools, spokesman Dave Jackson said. American Eagle is a subsidiary of AMR Corp., which also owns American Airlines.
SkyWest has posted help-wanted notices on its Web site, and it will conduct pilot career fairs in Salt Lake City and seven other cities this month. The airline wants to talk to pilots who fly for other regionals or who have been furloughed by bigger carriers. And it's combing through university aviation programs, looking for acceptable candidates.
There might be no time like the present to become a pilot for hire. Airlines hired about 8,500 aviators last year, and the pace should continue at that level or higher for the next 10 years, according to AIR Inc., which tracks pilot hiring. Aerospace giant Boeing Co. estimates the global appetite for new pilots at 17,000 a year through 2024.
"All I can say is it's the best time to get into the industry," said Mike Kraus, program director for the aviation studies program at Westminster College, which graduates about 110 commercial pilots a year, ready for the job market. "When you are born sometimes controls your destiny and opportunities."
The remarkable turnaround of the airline industry - whose fortunes ebbed after 9/11 - is behind much of the demand for pilots, said Kip Darby, president of Atlanta-based AIR. Much of the industry is returning to profitability after wresting huge pay and benefits concessions from employees, shedding expensive retirement programs and shifting more flying to contract carriers such as SkyWest. Rising fares and falling jet fuel prices are helping, too.
At the same time, the military - traditionally one of the best sources of commercial pilots - is retaining more of its aviators. And many pilots who leave the military are choosing other careers, underlining the instability in the airline industry that has pushed many carriers to extract big pay and benefit cuts from their employees.
"The next big crisis is a lack of qualified crews," said Ed Thiel, a Delta Air Lines captain and member of the executive council of the Delta unit of the Air Line Pilots Association. "The airlines are having difficulty finding qualified applicants. There are not as many people coming out of the military route, and it's almost prohibitively expensive to go through the civilian route, while the career has degraded to the point where it doesn't make sense to go into the business."
Aspiring pilots who enroll in aeronautical colleges can expect big tuition bills. An undergraduate degree at Embry-Riddle Aeronautical University in Florida costs almost $100,000. Thiel said nonacademic routes to a job at a major airline can be as expensive and take 10 years to complete.
All the same, a job isn't hard to find after a pilot earns a commercial license.
Two years ago, Frank Ayers, chairman of Embry-Riddle's flight department, was able to keep graduates on as flight instructors for a couple of years before they landed a job flying for a regional airline or other employer.
"I'm lucky now if I keep someone six months," Ayers said. "Don't get me wrong; it's a good problem to have. Despite all the bankruptcies, it appears that the increased demand for air travel is solid. Airlines have finished downsizing and have figured out how to fly profitably."
Analysts are betting that most airlines will report strong earnings in 2007. Ray Neidl of Calyon Securities thinks that American Airlines could earn earn $4.06 per share, or about $889 million, with United Airlines earning $4.80, or abut $531 million. SkyWest is expected to be the most profitable regional carrier, earning $2.71 a share, or close to $173 million, this year.
"There is a relationship between airline profits and hiring," AIR's Darby said. He believes that some airlines will earn as much as $1 billion a year as their profitability builds during the rest of the decade. "If that relationship holds true, we will see a lot of hiring."
The pilot hiring that SkyWest is undertaking is part of a broader plan to expand its 10,000-employee work force by up to 4,000 workers this year. In part, turnover is pushing the airline to accelerate pilot hiring. Regionals historically have been where young pilots assemble enough flying experience to move to bigger airlines.
About 10 percent of SkyWest's pilots leave the company each year. Some pack it in when they reach age 60. (Last week, the FAA said it would propose raising the compulsory retirement age to 65.) Others leave for jobs at other airlines, said Camille Ence, manager of pilot recruitment.
Most pilots who leave hope to hire on at national airlines and air cargo companies, which pay more and give better benefits, Darby said. FedEx pays an Airbus A380 captain with 10 years of experience $17,464 a month, according to WillFlyForFood.cc, a Web site that compares pilot pay. An American Airlines captain flying a Boeing 767 earns $11,008 a month. SkyWest jet captains with a decade of experience earn about $3,000 a month. First officers are paid $1,425 a month, according to WillFlyForFood.
Although some bankrupt carriers have turned their retirement programs over to the government Pension Benefit Guarantee Corp., most retirement packages at the bigger airlines are still defined-benefit programs instead of 401(k) programs. Bigger airlines also provide more rest time between flights, Darby said.
The key reason why SkyWest must hire hundreds of new pilots this year is its growing alliance with Delta. In November, Delta selected SkyWest Inc. to take over some of the regional flying business operated by its Comair subsidiary. This month, Delta will shift the flying of 12 Canadair regional jets to SkyWest, The company also is waiting to hear whether Delta will award it another 131 Comair jets. Each aircraft needs a rotation of nine pilots.
Delta also granted eight of the 70-seat jets to SkyWest when it bought Atlantic Southeast Airlines in September 2005. Those aircraft are scheduled to be delivered between now and May.
It is getting crazy in the US, Big Big pilot shortage for regional airlines FO, CFI and Part 135 operatores.
2007 has been a very good year so far and I hope it keep going
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It's a wave that aviation experiences once every ten years or so.
It's really nice to see hiring, but at the same time I have difficulty with the notion of regionals complaining they can't find enough pilots when they pay them outrageously low salaries...
Aviation could have a serious problem in the future.
It's very expensive to become a pilot, and the working conditions are such that a lot of people who would make the best pilots are forced to look at other careers because the labor conditions are so bad...
Where I live a half-decent house costs $500,000.... How the heck are you supposed to provide that for your family on a regional pilot's salary?
As fun as flying is, who wants to raise a family as one of the "renting" class... That's just not responsible.
It's really nice to see hiring, but at the same time I have difficulty with the notion of regionals complaining they can't find enough pilots when they pay them outrageously low salaries...
Aviation could have a serious problem in the future.
It's very expensive to become a pilot, and the working conditions are such that a lot of people who would make the best pilots are forced to look at other careers because the labor conditions are so bad...
Where I live a half-decent house costs $500,000.... How the heck are you supposed to provide that for your family on a regional pilot's salary?
As fun as flying is, who wants to raise a family as one of the "renting" class... That's just not responsible.
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USA pilot Shortage
The post below is from another website that discuss the pilot shortage in USA, I thought it would be interesting what this guy have to say about 135 operatores in USA, so here it comes:
135 Operators are in serious danger. I do not give them many more years in operation. Not many 135 operators will be able to stay in business.
Really? Yes and that because of the Pilot shortage that is already a reality. Desperate pilots taking any kind of job for the hours or as a step into experience necessary for applying to the regionals are soon history.
Who will accept what the small 135 night cargo companies have to offer? flying all night in old equipment freezing like hell, loading and unloading their airplanes many times per night and being forced to fly in any kind of weather, accepting mechanical problems in the name of operational interest? and that being paid 1700 to at the most 3000 per month before tax?
The regionals are taking every trainable pilot available in the market and we have only seen the start. The Regionals needs 7000 to 10000 new pilots during 2007. The big airlines will be seriously start hiring at the end of 2007 and even more during 2008 taking most of the new pilots from the US regionals and they will need even more pilots. The international market need for US pilots mainly in Asia (China, etc) will increase dramatically.
Who will want to fly for the 135 operator? All night? for what? for nothing?
Corporate and Charter operators will also increase the demand for pilots. The 135 operators that will survive are the ones that will be able to increase the salaries seriously and will have to treat their pilots like kings to make them stay. Who will financially be able to do that? The days of the night working slaves will soon be over..............................
One thing I just want to mention to this post is that Very Light Jets are cooming to the market this year and we should expect somewhere around 1000 of them. Insurance requires two pilots for each. So, we are looking about 3-4000 pilots. Flight Schools in US this days consist of Indian and Chinese students, and the schools are crying for CFI's. A lot of students are on hold for CFI shortage.
It will be very interesting to see what really going to happen in a year or two,,,,, I'm so glad I just graduated from college with a professinal pilot degree
.
135 Operators are in serious danger. I do not give them many more years in operation. Not many 135 operators will be able to stay in business.
Really? Yes and that because of the Pilot shortage that is already a reality. Desperate pilots taking any kind of job for the hours or as a step into experience necessary for applying to the regionals are soon history.
Who will accept what the small 135 night cargo companies have to offer? flying all night in old equipment freezing like hell, loading and unloading their airplanes many times per night and being forced to fly in any kind of weather, accepting mechanical problems in the name of operational interest? and that being paid 1700 to at the most 3000 per month before tax?
The regionals are taking every trainable pilot available in the market and we have only seen the start. The Regionals needs 7000 to 10000 new pilots during 2007. The big airlines will be seriously start hiring at the end of 2007 and even more during 2008 taking most of the new pilots from the US regionals and they will need even more pilots. The international market need for US pilots mainly in Asia (China, etc) will increase dramatically.
Who will want to fly for the 135 operator? All night? for what? for nothing?
Corporate and Charter operators will also increase the demand for pilots. The 135 operators that will survive are the ones that will be able to increase the salaries seriously and will have to treat their pilots like kings to make them stay. Who will financially be able to do that? The days of the night working slaves will soon be over..............................
One thing I just want to mention to this post is that Very Light Jets are cooming to the market this year and we should expect somewhere around 1000 of them. Insurance requires two pilots for each. So, we are looking about 3-4000 pilots. Flight Schools in US this days consist of Indian and Chinese students, and the schools are crying for CFI's. A lot of students are on hold for CFI shortage.
It will be very interesting to see what really going to happen in a year or two,,,,, I'm so glad I just graduated from college with a professinal pilot degree
.
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You're lucky to be finishing now.
I finished right after 9-11... you needed a million hours just to be a lowly CFI back then.
However, until wages come up the industry has no right to complain about shortages, real or imagined.
Too many people have been deterred from aviation because the working conditions created by the industry have been extremely poor.
Who wants to go $100,000 in debt for a job that pays $17,000 per year?
Also, things look good now, but what about when the next down turn hits?
I finished right after 9-11... you needed a million hours just to be a lowly CFI back then.
However, until wages come up the industry has no right to complain about shortages, real or imagined.
Too many people have been deterred from aviation because the working conditions created by the industry have been extremely poor.
Who wants to go $100,000 in debt for a job that pays $17,000 per year?
Also, things look good now, but what about when the next down turn hits?
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The drive to get more bums on seats..not only in the US but also in Europe..is driving down air-fares to ludicrously low levels and cost cutting across the board by the operators is taking its toll... what is the fascination with turning aircraft into Greyhound buses ?
I'll be moving to the States later this year and have been looking at the ads for pilots... a total joke... You'd need horses and chains to get me out of the house for what's being offered... in most cases it wouldn't cover even a modest mortgage... I'm going into property and will buy myself a small single to have some fun with. The employers can go whistle for my 8000 hours.
I'll be moving to the States later this year and have been looking at the ads for pilots... a total joke... You'd need horses and chains to get me out of the house for what's being offered... in most cases it wouldn't cover even a modest mortgage... I'm going into property and will buy myself a small single to have some fun with. The employers can go whistle for my 8000 hours.
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There's no shortage. Flight schools and businesses that sell employment such as Air, Inc love to spread those rumors...but there's no pilot shortage. There never was. Don't get sucked into that noise.
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FAA Part 121 rules playing catch-up with ICAO standards
The soon to be enacted FAA Part121 age-65 rule will help to keep many well qualified airline pilots in the USA. Presently, many ALPA age-60 "retired" USA airline captains have benefited from Direct Entry positions at foreign air carriers. Curiously, since last November, these over age-60 pilots are now also operating their foreign registered birds into their home turf.
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Sorry to butt in but I thought the US paid good wages for pilots?
Isn't the UK (EU) the same.
When you guys mention working conditions, how different is it in the US to the UK etc?
The reason I ask is im debating in my head whether to go for the FAA or JAA airline license, im in limbo...not good.
Isn't the UK (EU) the same.
When you guys mention working conditions, how different is it in the US to the UK etc?
The reason I ask is im debating in my head whether to go for the FAA or JAA airline license, im in limbo...not good.
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Com 1... as always with these things there will be a wide variety of incomes according to who / what and where you fly... pretty good are the mid and large sized business jets for large corporations... bottom end are the 135 piston and small turbo-prop pilots willing to fly for food... On the whole you'll be much better paid in Europe with a JAA licence... but the JAA is very much harder to aquire... roughly equivilent to one of the US aviation college BA degrees and hugely more expensive... also costs of living can be a lot higher in many parts of Europe...especially if you're flying out of a London airport..
The much lower cost of living in many parts of the US make it attractive and generally I find that even taking the lower salaries / medicare /federal taxes / state taxes ad nauseaum into account, people generally have a better qulaity of life in the US and more disposable income... you need a VERY LARGE income in most of ( northern ) Europe to enjoy a good quality of life...unless maybe you want to live in Scotland.
The salaries I've been looking at in the US are often quoted as $15 / $20 perhour... with 100 hours pm less tax I would be looking at around $1600 pm ... about 800 UK pounds per month... !!!!! 
The much lower cost of living in many parts of the US make it attractive and generally I find that even taking the lower salaries / medicare /federal taxes / state taxes ad nauseaum into account, people generally have a better qulaity of life in the US and more disposable income... you need a VERY LARGE income in most of ( northern ) Europe to enjoy a good quality of life...unless maybe you want to live in Scotland.
The salaries I've been looking at in the US are often quoted as $15 / $20 perhour... with 100 hours pm less tax I would be looking at around $1600 pm ... about 800 UK pounds per month... !!!!!
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Wow thats pretty crappy for a salary, sorry to hear that.
Im keeping my options open anyhow. In regards to obtaining the JAA, in what instances is it harder to get?
Is it harder aswell like studying and more difficult questions etc?
Cheers
Im keeping my options open anyhow. In regards to obtaining the JAA, in what instances is it harder to get?
Is it harder aswell like studying and more difficult questions etc?
Cheers
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Com 1
There's no comparison at all.... I did my UK licence many years back and it was tough enough then... I think I sat about a dozen maybe thirteen exams.. minimum time for any maybe 1 to 1 1/2 hours...several were 3 hours... we had to sit ( I think ) maybe 10 at one sitting over 2 or 3 days... 7 passes got a partial and we were allowed to sit the 2 or whatever failures again... if you'missed more than 2 or 3 then everything had to be re-sat... things like Met are split into 3 seperate exams..met Practical / met Theory and Climatology... each 1 or 1 1/2 hours... Nav and Flt Planning were each 3 hrs and pretty tough.... many don't finish in that time. I believe that since the introduction of JAA it's become harder in some ways...easier in others.. not really up on that.. On the plus side, the flying exam is pretty starightforward... consists of general handling mostly and done in a single... the Instrument Rating is done seperately at some later date...neither are very demanding except that the student has very low hours. To some extent the oral exam necessary in the US makes up for the joke written test ( I sat my written at a computer...hadn't looked at a book for 14 yrs and got 87% after just 40 minutes... and I'm not too bright ! ) If the examiner senses any weakness in your knowlege he'll probe until he has you writhing in agony... I'm told some oral tests last for up to 5 hours or so.. I was lucky and got through it in about 2 hrs...
The FAA ATPL flight test was without doubt the toughest flight test I've ever endured... 2 1/2 hours of bloody hard work.. I have to say the guy ( Hank Smith..Long Beach Ca. ) was exteremly fair..( also extremely HUGE )
Hiring aircraft in the UK is about twice that of the US. Someone else will have to advise you on minimum hour requirement... I've lost touch.
If you're a US citizen or have lived there and are comfortable there then I would say go the US route.. if you have any need now or in the foreseeable future to have to fly in Europe then you will have to go for the JAA..
There's no comparison at all.... I did my UK licence many years back and it was tough enough then... I think I sat about a dozen maybe thirteen exams.. minimum time for any maybe 1 to 1 1/2 hours...several were 3 hours... we had to sit ( I think ) maybe 10 at one sitting over 2 or 3 days... 7 passes got a partial and we were allowed to sit the 2 or whatever failures again... if you'missed more than 2 or 3 then everything had to be re-sat... things like Met are split into 3 seperate exams..met Practical / met Theory and Climatology... each 1 or 1 1/2 hours... Nav and Flt Planning were each 3 hrs and pretty tough.... many don't finish in that time. I believe that since the introduction of JAA it's become harder in some ways...easier in others.. not really up on that.. On the plus side, the flying exam is pretty starightforward... consists of general handling mostly and done in a single... the Instrument Rating is done seperately at some later date...neither are very demanding except that the student has very low hours. To some extent the oral exam necessary in the US makes up for the joke written test ( I sat my written at a computer...hadn't looked at a book for 14 yrs and got 87% after just 40 minutes... and I'm not too bright ! ) If the examiner senses any weakness in your knowlege he'll probe until he has you writhing in agony... I'm told some oral tests last for up to 5 hours or so.. I was lucky and got through it in about 2 hrs...
The FAA ATPL flight test was without doubt the toughest flight test I've ever endured... 2 1/2 hours of bloody hard work.. I have to say the guy ( Hank Smith..Long Beach Ca. ) was exteremly fair..( also extremely HUGE )
Hiring aircraft in the UK is about twice that of the US. Someone else will have to advise you on minimum hour requirement... I've lost touch.
If you're a US citizen or have lived there and are comfortable there then I would say go the US route.. if you have any need now or in the foreseeable future to have to fly in Europe then you will have to go for the JAA..
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Hey, is it possible to get both JAA and FAA? Is it more hassle though and alot more studying?
I dont want to snow myself under until I get pain in my head lol.
here is the link, http://www.naples-air-center.com/dev/index.php?view=67
this flight school only offers FAA http://www.naiasc.com/
This offers both, http://www.flyoft.com/
Just wondering what your view would be on these places?
P.S Is it possible to go to the states and obtain a PPL then come home and go in maybe a year to do the rest?
Cheers
Sarah
I dont want to snow myself under until I get pain in my head lol.
here is the link, http://www.naples-air-center.com/dev/index.php?view=67
this flight school only offers FAA http://www.naiasc.com/
This offers both, http://www.flyoft.com/
Just wondering what your view would be on these places?
P.S Is it possible to go to the states and obtain a PPL then come home and go in maybe a year to do the rest?
Cheers
Sarah
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There are certainly advantages to doing as much of your training in the US as possible... not only much cheaper..especially with the dollar now regarded as almost a third world currency...but also in places like Florida and the west Coast the weather being so much friendlier means you can get the thing done a lot quicker... the more you fly the easier the whole thing comes together.. many in the UK struggle to find the money for the hours and then struggle to find the weather to fly.. this means often that the first half hour of any lesson is trying to catch up on what's been forgotton since flying maybe 3 weeks ago... bit like ski-ing really
There are a number of JAA qualified schools now in the States... looking through the mags will suggest a few.. as for their reputation... try the wanabee forum on PPrune.. or any other forum you think might suit...the Mods will move the post to where they think it should be...
One rule applies to any training organisation no matter whether it's FlightSafety or Arnies Flite-Club... NEVER PAY LARGE AMOUNTS UP FRONT !
Pay them enough in advance to see you through the next week... if they're not happy with that then pay someone else.
As for getting both JAA and FAA.... do that only out of necessity... as I did... remember... the FAA is still pretty useless outside of the US and in the more remote areas of the world... That doesn't include Scotland
There are a number of JAA qualified schools now in the States... looking through the mags will suggest a few.. as for their reputation... try the wanabee forum on PPrune.. or any other forum you think might suit...the Mods will move the post to where they think it should be...
One rule applies to any training organisation no matter whether it's FlightSafety or Arnies Flite-Club... NEVER PAY LARGE AMOUNTS UP FRONT !
Pay them enough in advance to see you through the next week... if they're not happy with that then pay someone else.
As for getting both JAA and FAA.... do that only out of necessity... as I did... remember... the FAA is still pretty useless outside of the US and in the more remote areas of the world... That doesn't include Scotland
Join Date: Nov 2006
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Do you think it would be in my best interest to go for just the JAA license or have the FAA too under my belt just incase? Cost wise its about the same at NAC but probably alot more studying and commitment involved but i would have the best of both worlds i guess.
Im guessing the US isn't a very desirable country to live in anymore with the $ being so low?
Im guessing the US isn't a very desirable country to live in anymore with the $ being so low?
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Com 1.
If for some reason you have the right to live and work in the US then I would suggest you go for it, you're the right age to get into aviation and this is a very good time to do it..... But there's no way that the FAA licence should cost anything like the JAA costs in Europe so if that's what they're quoting then shop around.
If for some reason you have the right to live and work in the US then I would suggest you go for it, you're the right age to get into aviation and this is a very good time to do it..... But there's no way that the FAA licence should cost anything like the JAA costs in Europe so if that's what they're quoting then shop around.
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Im hoping to do it in 2-3 years as i am saving for it.
I was just wondering about desirable countries to live in etc and the best license to get. Is it alot more work getting the FAA and JAA?
Also what is the Canadian license like?
Its a Canada Vs America question.
I was just wondering about desirable countries to live in etc and the best license to get. Is it alot more work getting the FAA and JAA?
Also what is the Canadian license like?
Its a Canada Vs America question.
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Canada is closer to the JAA licence I believe but still not as tough, better you ask someone from canada... far fewer opportunities up there and most of them cold. If you do the JAA licence and then add on the FAA the FAA will cost next to nothing as you'll already have the hours... sitting the FAA exam is maybe a couple of hundred dollars and you won't fail it... sitting the JAA exams costs well over $2000 and you may have to sit them more than once if you fail to get a partial pass, which happens often enough.. even re-sitting a couple of partials will set you back maybe $400 plus travelling... If money is a major concern and you can work in the US I suggest you go that route and once estblished in the industry with a couple of thousand hours behind you, then think about whether you want to come back to Europe...
Anyway... whatever you choose... very best of luck
Anyway... whatever you choose... very best of luck
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Hey, thanks for the advice i appreciate it
Do you think i'd be better of just getting the FAA license and training over there then building hours and obtaining the JAA there too, i heard it can be done which is good
Do you think i'd be better of just getting the FAA license and training over there then building hours and obtaining the JAA there too, i heard it can be done which is good
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Commander1 be carefull coming to US, we are facing a CFI shortage at the moment and it just started, IT WILL GET WORST,, belive me it will. I'm a flight instructor with 800 tt and I will be gone soon, THANK GOD. Regionals are picking up every pilot with 500 tt and 50 multi. Some of regionals pick you up with an commercial license and multi engine ad on it. Don't want to mention any names here.
If you call the flight school they will say no, there is no problem we have plenty of instructors. I will call it Bu.....
....et. They want your money.
There are several Indian and Chinese students that are on hold at the moment, due to the shortage.
I have several friends at the regional airlines and they said the real hiring will start within few months.
I'm getting offer left, right, center to come work for flight schools as a CFI. A flight school offered me between 30K a year if I sign a one year contract with them. Don't get me wrong, I love flying, but there are better and bigger airplanes out there. AND IT WOULD BE NICE TO FLY ONCE WITHOUT EXPLAINING OR TEACHING A STUDENT PILOT AND MAKING PEANUTS!!!!!
Few flight schools have actually started to change their policy, you are on salary instead of amount of hours you fly with students.
Make sure you do your research before you come over here to US. I spoke with a former Airline Captain few days ago and he said we are going to see the biggest pilot shortage in Aviation history ever.
Good luck, and you could PM me if you need any help!
If you call the flight school they will say no, there is no problem we have plenty of instructors. I will call it Bu.....
....et. They want your money.There are several Indian and Chinese students that are on hold at the moment, due to the shortage.
I have several friends at the regional airlines and they said the real hiring will start within few months.
I'm getting offer left, right, center to come work for flight schools as a CFI. A flight school offered me between 30K a year if I sign a one year contract with them.
Don't get me wrong, I love flying, but there are better and bigger airplanes out there. AND IT WOULD BE NICE TO FLY ONCE WITHOUT EXPLAINING OR TEACHING A STUDENT PILOT AND MAKING PEANUTS!!!!!Few flight schools have actually started to change their policy, you are on salary instead of amount of hours you fly with students.
Make sure you do your research before you come over here to US. I spoke with a former Airline Captain few days ago and he said we are going to see the biggest pilot shortage in Aviation history ever.
Good luck, and you could PM me if you need any help!
Last edited by Amin; 20th Mar 2007 at 18:34.
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I agree with Amin. I see a serious CFI shortage happening. I have observed more students, mainly Indian/Chinese waiting to start/continue flight training at local schools. Western students are considered easier to teach do to language issues so they seem to have an easier time finding instructors. A couple of friends who are CFI/retired airline pilots say they have more potential students than they can deal with. They used to just have one student at a time just to keep busy. Now they are continually picking up students whose CFI has left in the middle of their training for a regional job. Real issue for the non-us student to have to deal with an instructor switch mid stream. But I see them becoming burnt out and don't think they will continue to accept the workload much longer.