Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > PPRuNe Worldwide > North America
Reload this Page >

Egypt Air and Virgin Atlantic brush each other at JFK

North America Still the busiest region for commercial aviation.

Egypt Air and Virgin Atlantic brush each other at JFK

Old 29th Nov 2017, 18:45
  #21 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: world
Posts: 3,425
Taking into account of what I said above about ramp control in the US, and taking into consideration that Egyptair are not newcomers to JFK and their ramp procedures, I can't find anything particularly unclear in the controller's instructions. He is reminding the crew that they should contact their company and then advise him as to where they will be required to enter the ramp area. Seems quite clear to me.
Hotel Tango is offline  
Old 29th Nov 2017, 18:49
  #22 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: NY
Posts: 32
I've seen two videos on YouTube where this controller


"This controller" is actually two different controllers. The inquiry of the ramp entrance is made because the ramp is not controlled by ATC. Ramp control will advise aircraft to enter at points that differ from their current position and aircraft will start to taxi without valid atc instructions.
HM79 is offline  
Old 29th Nov 2017, 19:21
  #23 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 1,324
Multiple frequencies in a busy environment. One pilot out of the loop talking to ramp (and possibly company). ATC stressed and in turn stresses the remaining pilot with aggressive instructions, orders and questions.
I donít see how this can go wrong.

Direct communication between ATC and Ramp would solve the problem, but that will never happen.
ManaAdaSystem is offline  
Old 29th Nov 2017, 21:15
  #24 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Potomac Heights
Posts: 462
Two issues. One is that LiveATC or FR24 often use scanners to pick up communications, so transmissions may be clipped -- or someone else pushed their mic button which distorts the received transmission. Further, LiveATC or FR24 receive from locations off the airport. Presumably, planes on the tarmac may hear things more clearly.

Finally, isn't this about wings colliding, and not whether an incident aircraft got back to the ramp in 45 minutes versus 43? ATC didn't cause the accident. Initial blame probably lies with VA not pulling fully to the side, and Egypt completes the problem by not verifying clearance before taxiing.
SeenItAll is offline  
Old 29th Nov 2017, 21:16
  #25 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Coast to Coast...
Posts: 105
Yes yes. We get it. We know what the controller is asking for and we know how ramp operations work in the USA but repeatedly shouting "advise where you enter the ramp" and getting the wrong or a confused response only proves that the phraseology is wrong. Are you honestly going to tell me this is the correct way to ask such a question?
Smooth Airperator is offline  
Old 29th Nov 2017, 21:52
  #26 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: NY
Posts: 32
I was pointing out that the ground controller involved in this event was not the same controller on the other you tube clip.
HM79 is offline  
Old 30th Nov 2017, 20:16
  #27 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: away from home
Age: 58
Posts: 702
I have been flying to JFK as a foreign pilot for over 30 years. Yes it is a zoo. But work with what you've got and it's fine. But be alert and be careful. As everywhere else. First few trips you learn the lingo. Otherwise you should be flying somewhere else. You also need to learn how it works in LHR, HKG, SFO etc...
oceancrosser is online now  
Old 1st Dec 2017, 02:39
  #28 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Fragrant Harbour
Posts: 4,680
First few trips you learn the lingo. Otherwise you should be flying somewhere else.
Sorry, I don't agree. It would be better if the US adopted ICAO standard communications. (I have lots of US experience, including JFK)
Dan Winterland is offline  
Old 1st Dec 2017, 07:11
  #29 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Northern Territory Australia
Posts: 89
Perhaps people will learn from this. One of the controllers told the VS crew to pull over as far as possible to the right. A guide on the ramp would be a useful indicator as to what is safe so as to allow a following a/c to overtake.
Iím not sure whether the controller advised the MS to keep,as far as possible to the left but, as in road traffic, sure the responsibility falls on the following vehicle to ensure safe clearance.
Gove N.T. is offline  
Old 3rd Dec 2017, 07:27
  #30 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: LHR and beyond
Posts: 134
I’m sorry but lets forget about all the RT nonsense etc etc as its totally irrelevant... what is relevant is it does’nt matter what aircraft your in and what airport your at, surely basic airmanship dictates that you check you have wingtip clearance or not before you taxi passed another aircraft.. if not.. DONT DO IT.. simples
fast cruiser is offline  
Old 3rd Dec 2017, 08:30
  #31 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: east sussex
Age: 59
Posts: 17
Erm, actually it’s not so “simples”; it is impossible to see the wingtip from either seat. It is also totally impractical to vacate ones seat and walk down the cabin to a suitable passenger window immediately prior to take off. Pilots rely on following the taxi way centrelines; if they do not provide sufficient clearance, then accidents will happen - as they frequently do at JFK.
split system breaker is offline  
Old 3rd Dec 2017, 10:23
  #32 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: s england
Posts: 182
[QUOTE=Gove N.T.;9975028]Perhaps people will learn from this. One of the controllers told the VS crew to pull over as far as possible to the right. A guide on the ramp would be a useful indicator.

There is a guide, it's a yellow line. Unless one of the a/c involved wasn't on the yellow line then the markings are wrong and there should be a warning as such ( just like on the ATIS at LHR after a similar incident). In fairness if everyone stopped to get positive visual clearance ( from whom ?) every time a wide body passed another wide body on taxiways there'd be gridlock at JFK.
sudden twang is offline  
Old 3rd Dec 2017, 12:49
  #33 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 1,324
Open the cockpit window and take a look?
ManaAdaSystem is offline  
Old 3rd Dec 2017, 13:11
  #34 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: CYYZ
Posts: 70
The boys on the speedbird sounded really very impatient.
Sea Eggs is offline  
Old 3rd Dec 2017, 13:36
  #35 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Coast to Coast...
Posts: 105
People like fast cruiser must write manuals for a living
Smooth Airperator is offline  
Old 3rd Dec 2017, 14:18
  #36 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Germany
Posts: 339
There is a guide, it's a yellow line. Unless one of the a/c involved wasn't on the yellow line then the markings are wrong and there should be a warning as such (just like on the ATIS at LHR after a similar incident). In fairness if everyone stopped to get positive visual clearance ( from whom ?) every time a wide body passed another wide body on taxiways there'd be gridlock at JFK.
the yellow line is striped and if you are aligned with it you can be absolutely positive you WILL have a wingtip strike.
Virgin was already to the right of the line.
the yellow striped line marks the middle of the pad as measured from the edge of kilo to the edge of the pad (completely useless for pilots orientation).
a center line 40 ft from the edge of the pad would me much more useful and would have provided a wing tip separation of 40ft assuming both airplanes are lined up with their center lines.

just measure yourself: https://orthos.dhses.ny.gov

Last edited by wiedehopf; 4th Dec 2017 at 17:33.
wiedehopf is offline  
Old 3rd Dec 2017, 19:44
  #37 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: LHR and beyond
Posts: 134
Originally Posted by split system breaker View Post
Erm, actually itís not so ďsimplesĒ;
Erm, actually it is.. I would suggest most pilots have a pretty good idea as to whether there is sufficient wingtip clearance even with a simple "eyeball"....any doubt is no doubt... stop and get assistance, airfield ops, marshaller etc etc..
fast cruiser is offline  
Old 3rd Dec 2017, 19:46
  #38 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: LHR and beyond
Posts: 134
Originally Posted by Smooth Airperator View Post
People like fast cruiser must write manuals for a living
What a strange thing to say!
fast cruiser is offline  
Old 3rd Dec 2017, 22:28
  #39 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: world
Posts: 3,425
Terrible an completely unhelpful markings. Unbelievable!
Hotel Tango is offline  
Old 4th Dec 2017, 00:14
  #40 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: s england
Posts: 182
No mention of a striped line on the charts or indeed in the FAA guide to runway/taxiway markings. It's not always obvious if there's room to pass as evidenced by this and a plethora of other incidents. Opening window 2 doesn't really help.
sudden twang is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us Archive Advertising Cookie Policy Privacy Statement Terms of Service

Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.