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Egypt Air and Virgin Atlantic brush each other at JFK

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Egypt Air and Virgin Atlantic brush each other at JFK

Old 28th Nov 2017, 04:17
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Egypt Air and Virgin Atlantic brush each other at JFK

About 7.45pm JFK local a Virgin Atlantic A330 and EgyptAir 777 were involved in a collision while both were taxiing for departure. Horizontal stabilizer of the 777 clipped the A330’s winglet. No injuries.

Planes Clip Wings On Taxiway At JFK Airport « CBS New York

https://twitter.com/i/moments/935338860149596160
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Old 28th Nov 2017, 07:50
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satellite picture of the crash location:
https://orthos.dhses.ny.gov

from the third picture in the twitter story it looks like the A330 had plenty of space to the shoulder of the taxi area. would a proper centerline near the shoulder help with positioning?

edit: a centerline 40 ft from the edge of the kilo-pad would be around 250 ft from the kilo centerline
so a330 with 200 ft wingspan and b777 with 212 ft wingspan should have been able to pass each other with 40 ft to spare if positioned optimally.
source: measured aerial photos from the above link.

Last edited by wiedehopf; 28th Nov 2017 at 17:51.
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Old 28th Nov 2017, 12:54
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If you have a issue there and need to pull out of line you need to pull into the hold area and pivot at a 45 to insure your wings are clear of the Taxiway. I don't think this is written anywhere. Egypt Air probably should have questioned the room available as VA would have been clearly visible. In the end VA parked poorly, Egypt Air should have been more alert and JFK procedures for aircraft holding there are non existent despite limited room. It should be clearly stated aircraft must park at a 45. I'd allocate this incident 50% to JFK and split the other half between the airlines.
I have taxied by this area with narrow bodies pulled in their straight and not angled and it's still tight. Go about 2 knots cheating to the left with the relief pilot glued to the right window watching the wingtip.
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Old 28th Nov 2017, 18:30
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Here’s a good video with ATC recording:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=srdl7TWxsxA

As one wise guy once told me: “you always need to be PARANOID about wingtip clearance in a widebody”
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Old 28th Nov 2017, 20:36
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And they're still rolling out $300 million jets without proximity sensors, wing tip cameras and warnings systems.. (The type you'll find on $25,000 SUVs)
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Old 28th Nov 2017, 21:02
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Love the VS Tweet - minor damage - it will take a bit more than gaffa tape to sort that.


(Though I do accept that in the scheme of things it is not a significant incident)
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Old 29th Nov 2017, 01:04
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Originally Posted by Smooth Airperator View Post
And they're still rolling out $300 million jets without proximity sensors, wing tip cameras and warnings systems.. (The type you'll find on $25,000 SUVs)
We’re a cost sensitive business, the amount of money spent on equipping, carrying and mainaining such a system on every aircraft in the fleet outweighs the likely cost involved in a payout.
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Old 29th Nov 2017, 02:25
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Using the well-known AA olive story, and a few figures found on internet (so they must be true!).

Removing 1 olive from each first class means across 3,400 flights/day or 1,250,000 flights per year saves $40,000/year. Or approximately $0.032 per flight, based on a single 3 gram olive (150 olives/pound, reportedly...)

So, assuming 10lbs of camera equipment, works out to 4500grams/3*0.032=~$48 extra cost per flight for that equipment.

Assuming even only half the fleet is fitted with camera equipment, works out to $30,000,000 per year just for lugging the camera equipment around.
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Old 29th Nov 2017, 10:47
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Sailvi767

“I would allocate this incident 50% to JFK and split the other half between the two airlines”

During your tenure with the NTSB did you have to investigate a similiar incident at JFK and therefore speak from experience or just making it up as you go along ?

Just curious
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Old 29th Nov 2017, 11:09
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Measuring between the two centrelines is roughly 52m. Bearing in mind both wingspans are just over 60m, if the two aircraft were on the centrelines there is roughly an overlap of 8m. Looks like it was an accident waiting to happen.
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Old 29th Nov 2017, 11:52
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Yes perhaps a better solution would have been to move the Virgin to the farthest entrance (K1?) and have Egyptair use K2 to enter 4L
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Old 29th Nov 2017, 12:25
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4engines4longhaul

You must have missed the part where I said that "I would allocate". Kind of makes that my opinion does it not? Do you believe opinions should not be allowed on forums? I have parked there at least half a dozen times in a widebody. I have however each time parked to insure I did not block the taxiway. A simple pivot to a 45 rotates your wings clear and allows you to see oncoming traffic. Still I feel the airport should take most of the responsibility because of poor procedures, charting and markings. You may have and are entitled to a different opinion.
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Old 29th Nov 2017, 12:50
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Originally Posted by Right Way Up View Post
Measuring between the two centrelines is roughly 52m. Bearing in mind both wingspans are just over 60m, if the two aircraft were on the centrelines there is roughly an overlap of 8m. Looks like it was an accident waiting to happen.
the striped line is not a centerline is it?
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Old 29th Nov 2017, 13:00
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This ground controller is a douchebag. "Advise where you enter the ramp"? Is this ICAO Level 99 or something?
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Old 29th Nov 2017, 13:10
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Hey, that's just the way JFK is. I thought it happened closer to 1900 local. I looked up from my beer and saw a bunch of trucks in procession behind an Egyptair triple taxiing in on Hotel. The VS being towed behind it also had an escort. I couldn't spot the damage in the dark, but I had already notched it up to yet another Kennedy taxiway wing-clipper.

So you don't even need to be an armchair pilot to blame JFK. All you need is a window and a cool pint. Wingtip clips at JFK are like RAs in Spain: they seem to happen more often there than elsewhere, and, while in each case the aetiology might differ, a large factor is systemic, such as a bunch of heavies crammed into a space designed for the occasional 707.
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Old 29th Nov 2017, 13:33
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Originally Posted by KRviator View Post
So, assuming 10lbs of camera equipment, works out to 4500grams/3*0.032=~$48 extra cost per flight for that equipment.

Assuming even only half the fleet is fitted with camera equipment, works out to $30,000,000 per year just for lugging the camera equipment around.
Who said a couple of ultrasonic transducers per wingtip has to weigh 10lbs? It sure as hell doesn't on an automobile.
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Old 29th Nov 2017, 13:47
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The ones in your car don’t need a couple of hundred meters of wiring from wingtips to an avionics bay.

What happens if it starts chirping during a takeoff roll? You could inhibit it above a certain speed but then you have to integrate it with other systems, making it more expensive.

The cost of developing, certifying, installing, maintaining and carrying it far exceeds the cost of the remote chance of a wingtip strike happening to your aircraft.

Last edited by Una Due Tfc; 29th Nov 2017 at 13:59.
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Old 29th Nov 2017, 14:13
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Smooth Airperator

This ground controller is a douchebag. "Advise where you enter the ramp"? Is this ICAO Level 99 or something?
Not sure what your meaning is here but at most large US airports the ramp is nothing to do with ATC. It's a totally seperate operation. Therefore, they (ATC) need the aircraft to tell them by which taxiway they are expected by ramp control to enter the ramp area. Different countries, different procedures.
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Old 29th Nov 2017, 14:50
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the striped line is not a centerline is it?
Possibly not but you can see why someone would use it as one.

Haven’t been there for a while but the taxiways and markings always seemed pretty poor at JFK, especially at night when it rains.
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Old 29th Nov 2017, 16:24
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Not sure what your meaning
Hotel Tango,

I've seen two videos on YouTube where this controller is heard to say something that is complete gibberish. Not English and certainly not helpful when communicating with foreign pilots who are not versed in NY colloquialisms.

https://youtu.be/srdl7TWxsxA?t=835 (listen for a minute after 14:00 in)
and some years earlier:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZWOOKQlEe5s (listen to first minute)
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