Lower than standard takeoff mins.
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Lower than standard takeoff mins.
For those of you in the USA with ops spec c078 for lower than standard takeoff mins I have a question. Government charts don't list all that info on them like jepps do for lower than standard takeoff mins. Ops specs are always controlling. So long as std is listed I can reduce to lower than standard min so long as the criteria in the ops spec are met.
I need to find a couple examples in the us where the info on jepps is different then using the ops specs.
Thanks
I need to find a couple examples in the us where the info on jepps is different then using the ops specs.
Thanks
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If your ops-spec said 500 rvr
You can go as low 500 rvr.now for do that
You need at least 2 out of 3 rvr report
Also you need some lights ( centerline light) and so forth
You can go as low 500 rvr.now for do that
You need at least 2 out of 3 rvr report
Also you need some lights ( centerline light) and so forth
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That's for the reply. I get that. I understand the ops spec for there is some confusion with pilots using the 10-9 as their limit and not applying the ops spec. I'm looking for some examples for training that the 10-9 limits differ from the ops-spec.
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That is confusing and you will get many answers I'm sure.
If using Government charts, you will only show standard so not sure.
I believe at times the chart is controlling, and at other times ops specs.
For example, if conditions met, ops specs allow 5,5,5.......
Some airports like Seattle May have 3,3,3 on 10-9 chart so authorized to use5,5,5
Most airports with Low visibility procedures allowed 5-5-5 but if an airport said 6-6-6 on 10-9 those are the lowest allowed at airport so that is now lowest allowed.
Again you will get 10 different opinions but I had a part 135 charter many years ago and my POI from Ffdo required I have and use Jepps because of this
If using Government charts, you will only show standard so not sure.
I believe at times the chart is controlling, and at other times ops specs.
For example, if conditions met, ops specs allow 5,5,5.......
Some airports like Seattle May have 3,3,3 on 10-9 chart so authorized to use5,5,5
Most airports with Low visibility procedures allowed 5-5-5 but if an airport said 6-6-6 on 10-9 those are the lowest allowed at airport so that is now lowest allowed.
Again you will get 10 different opinions but I had a part 135 charter many years ago and my POI from Ffdo required I have and use Jepps because of this
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Is not confusing
Let's start with
Part 91 can take off in zero visibility (not the smartest move).
Now on part 135.
You have your ops-spec and should said the lowest you can go
Is 500 yo are allowed to go 500 (you have to meet the requirements)
And because your ops-spec are approved by the Faa you're good.
If you don't have the lower of standard (because the Faa didn't approved)
You follow the 10-9
Let's start with
Part 91 can take off in zero visibility (not the smartest move).
Now on part 135.
You have your ops-spec and should said the lowest you can go
Is 500 yo are allowed to go 500 (you have to meet the requirements)
And because your ops-spec are approved by the Faa you're good.
If you don't have the lower of standard (because the Faa didn't approved)
You follow the 10-9
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Regarding RA4000's post...I mostly agree, and have subscribed to that opinion or interpretation for years, however just try to discuss with the FAA and be on the same page....I have seen many FAA ops inspectors and those in training argue you must follow what is on chart. Everybody has an opinion and it is just that, the only thing that ultimately holds up is FAA legal interpretation
Often times it may be something subtle, LIke how far apart the centerline lighting is spaced etc. my ops specs say 500 RVR/150 Meters, but need among other things centerline lighting at 50? Foot intervals, and our home base airport had non standard lighting at 60.....so had to use 200 meters.
Just playing Devils advocate....I have been cat3-B authorized for nearly 20 years.
My various ops spec say I can do cat 3...no decision height and only require 75 meters RVR.
But if I go to an airport that only has a cat 2 approach, or cat3 a, or cat 3B with a decision height, like France has, then it is required I use minimums per chart?
Low visibility procedures are affected/limited by crew, aircraft, and airport operating at.....so one can argue takeoff is no different.
Honestly I don't know for sure....I've always found as long as there is no accident most likely no one cares! Seriously though it is confusing cause they say these are Your Ops Specs...this is what you follow....But?
Maybe using Govt. Chart is easier because you have only standard takeoff minimums, so you apply ops specs, thee is no conflicting information...easy like that!
Often times it may be something subtle, LIke how far apart the centerline lighting is spaced etc. my ops specs say 500 RVR/150 Meters, but need among other things centerline lighting at 50? Foot intervals, and our home base airport had non standard lighting at 60.....so had to use 200 meters.
Just playing Devils advocate....I have been cat3-B authorized for nearly 20 years.
My various ops spec say I can do cat 3...no decision height and only require 75 meters RVR.
But if I go to an airport that only has a cat 2 approach, or cat3 a, or cat 3B with a decision height, like France has, then it is required I use minimums per chart?
Low visibility procedures are affected/limited by crew, aircraft, and airport operating at.....so one can argue takeoff is no different.
Honestly I don't know for sure....I've always found as long as there is no accident most likely no one cares! Seriously though it is confusing cause they say these are Your Ops Specs...this is what you follow....But?
Maybe using Govt. Chart is easier because you have only standard takeoff minimums, so you apply ops specs, thee is no conflicting information...easy like that!
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Flying Fool,
I think the situation you are referring to is when the published minimums (On the 10-9) are higher than standard, in which case those minimums override the "Lower than standard" minimums in your Op Specs. Is that what you are referring to?
I think the situation you are referring to is when the published minimums (On the 10-9) are higher than standard, in which case those minimums override the "Lower than standard" minimums in your Op Specs. Is that what you are referring to?
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Lower than standard Takeoff Minima
Your should find C057 of your Ops Specs IFR Takeoff Minima Part 135 (we don't care about Part 91 because they can do anything foolish).. states (it's a standard verbiage the FAA uses when creating the document):
Standard takeoff minima = 1sm or 5000 RVR for 2 engines or less.
a. When a takeoff minimum is not published, the certificate holder may use the applicable standard takeoff minimum (the chart) and any lower than standard takeoff minima authorised by these operations specifications. (Remember, not all Part 135 operators are approved for lower than standard minima) When standard takeoff minima or greater are used, the RVR report is controlling.
When published takeoff minima is greater than the applicable standard takeoff minima and an alternative procedure (such as a minimum climb gradient etc) is NOT prescribed, then the certificate holder shall not use a takeoff minima lower than the published. (i.e. the published is controlling for a reason - such as terrain, obstacles etc - that's why is higher than standard)
So your airline might allow in the Ops Specs for you to do a 1200 RVR takeoff. But if the runway you are taking off on, has no climb gradient or no specified obstacle clearance the chart may list minimums non-standard, i.e. 1 1/2 sm for takeoff, then the non-standard is controlling and you cannot use your Ops Specs lower-than standard minimum because for some reason, higher visibility is mandatory.
You can pick any chart that has a takeoff visibility of greater than 1sm as an example.
Standard takeoff minima = 1sm or 5000 RVR for 2 engines or less.
a. When a takeoff minimum is not published, the certificate holder may use the applicable standard takeoff minimum (the chart) and any lower than standard takeoff minima authorised by these operations specifications. (Remember, not all Part 135 operators are approved for lower than standard minima) When standard takeoff minima or greater are used, the RVR report is controlling.
When published takeoff minima is greater than the applicable standard takeoff minima and an alternative procedure (such as a minimum climb gradient etc) is NOT prescribed, then the certificate holder shall not use a takeoff minima lower than the published. (i.e. the published is controlling for a reason - such as terrain, obstacles etc - that's why is higher than standard)
So your airline might allow in the Ops Specs for you to do a 1200 RVR takeoff. But if the runway you are taking off on, has no climb gradient or no specified obstacle clearance the chart may list minimums non-standard, i.e. 1 1/2 sm for takeoff, then the non-standard is controlling and you cannot use your Ops Specs lower-than standard minimum because for some reason, higher visibility is mandatory.
You can pick any chart that has a takeoff visibility of greater than 1sm as an example.
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I understand the ops specs and how to use it. I'm not talking about higher than standard. I'm talking about looking to see if the airport has standard takeoff mins. If it does, (including standard with a climb grade) then I don't need to look at the chart and use my ops specs. The chart can say whatever it wants but after seeing a standard takeoff, I don't look at it any more and use my ops specs.
It's just like using ops specs for alternates. So long as it isn't NA we use our ops specs to come up with alternate weather requirements. We don't use the 800-2 and so on.
So I'm trying to make a point with people and show them they need to know, understand and use our ops specs not the charts. We shouldn't have people some people NOT taking off when others will. The information on the 10-9 of a jepp is provided by jepp and not controlling with the ops specs.
I'm looking for an airport that has standard takeoff mins and meets the requirements per the ops specs of maybe 5/5/5 takeoff but the jepp 10-9 has something higher.
I guess I'm looking for something like maybe an airport that just installed centerline lights and now everything meets the ops spec requirments for a 5/5/5 takeoff but the chart hasn't been updated.
Does this make sense? I'm trying to find an example and use it in training. im sure there is a chart with the lowest being 1000/1000/1000 or 1200/1200/1000 but has as the requiremts at the airport to meet a ops spec t/o of 500/500/500.
Another example of this is the 1800 rvr requiremt for landing. If you have the ops spec that allows an 1800 rvr landing with AP/FD/HUD and the chart has 1800 as the lowest, you can use your ops spec and land with 1800 rvr when the touchdown zone lights are inop. Even if the jep chart says tdz lights inop 2400 rvr.
Know and understand your ops specs!
Thanks
It's just like using ops specs for alternates. So long as it isn't NA we use our ops specs to come up with alternate weather requirements. We don't use the 800-2 and so on.
So I'm trying to make a point with people and show them they need to know, understand and use our ops specs not the charts. We shouldn't have people some people NOT taking off when others will. The information on the 10-9 of a jepp is provided by jepp and not controlling with the ops specs.
I'm looking for an airport that has standard takeoff mins and meets the requirements per the ops specs of maybe 5/5/5 takeoff but the jepp 10-9 has something higher.
I guess I'm looking for something like maybe an airport that just installed centerline lights and now everything meets the ops spec requirments for a 5/5/5 takeoff but the chart hasn't been updated.
Does this make sense? I'm trying to find an example and use it in training. im sure there is a chart with the lowest being 1000/1000/1000 or 1200/1200/1000 but has as the requiremts at the airport to meet a ops spec t/o of 500/500/500.
Another example of this is the 1800 rvr requiremt for landing. If you have the ops spec that allows an 1800 rvr landing with AP/FD/HUD and the chart has 1800 as the lowest, you can use your ops spec and land with 1800 rvr when the touchdown zone lights are inop. Even if the jep chart says tdz lights inop 2400 rvr.
Know and understand your ops specs!
Thanks
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First thing first.
On landing you can't go below what the chart published.
Go below you have to be approved cat II or cat III and still need the chart.
Now on take off
Standard is 3-4 engine 1/2 mile or 2400 rvr
1-2 engine is 1 mile or 5000 rvr.
Now if you want go lower you look at your ops spec.
Take a look at 9A in KAPA you will see that you can lower than standard
But for sure you can't go 500 rvr because there is not an rvr report
On landing you can't go below what the chart published.
Go below you have to be approved cat II or cat III and still need the chart.
Now on take off
Standard is 3-4 engine 1/2 mile or 2400 rvr
1-2 engine is 1 mile or 5000 rvr.
Now if you want go lower you look at your ops spec.
Take a look at 9A in KAPA you will see that you can lower than standard
But for sure you can't go 500 rvr because there is not an rvr report
