AA Crash Jamaica
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the captain seems like a nice guy...I don't want it to be pilot error.
But, a good pilot knows about hydroplaning, about tailwinds that increase, about wet runways, about stable approaches, about landing in the first third of the runway (TD), about checking spoiler deployment, about getting into reverse right away and the myriad of things about a firm touchdown and when to get the heck out of a situation.
So, what happened? Did the engines fail on touchdown due to massive rain ingestion? Did the brakes fail? Did the reversers fail?
Like I said, I don't want it to be pilot error.
But, a good pilot knows about hydroplaning, about tailwinds that increase, about wet runways, about stable approaches, about landing in the first third of the runway (TD), about checking spoiler deployment, about getting into reverse right away and the myriad of things about a firm touchdown and when to get the heck out of a situation.
So, what happened? Did the engines fail on touchdown due to massive rain ingestion? Did the brakes fail? Did the reversers fail?
Like I said, I don't want it to be pilot error.
Union Goon
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Even if he did everything right, If the aircraft did not start hydroplaning untill after the engines were in reverse, then the correct action is to ride it out, even if it means going off the far end of the runway. There are times where you can do everything right, and still bend the airframe.
Everyone walked away from this one, sometimes the correct action is to sacrifice the airframe for the lives of the passengers... Another example of that was the ditching in the Hudson river...
Cheers
Wino
Everyone walked away from this one, sometimes the correct action is to sacrifice the airframe for the lives of the passengers... Another example of that was the ditching in the Hudson river...
Cheers
Wino
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while I flew an earlier version of the 737, I really don't know the NG/800 version.
Can you ''firewall reverse" power? Or does a computer say no?
In this case, of sacrificing things, one could firewall reverse and sacrifice the engines a bit.
Can you ''firewall reverse" power? Or does a computer say no?
In this case, of sacrificing things, one could firewall reverse and sacrifice the engines a bit.
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I flew the earlier versions too, 100,200,300. They would have done well into Kingston. Until we get more data I don't know why they went off the end. Their landing performance charts showed they should have been fine. We will have to wait and see. The metar reports on visibility were useless because they were so out of touch but the winds seemed normal, 10 knot tailwind for an hour before landing until after the crash. That is normal to land with a 10 knot tailwind at AA along with all other airlines. All the visibilitiy reports from 0300Z were wacko. Shift change?
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Wait it Out
I'm a Godson of a retrired "PanAm-then-United" 747 check airman. I don't recall what particular accident had recently occured involving weather and landing, to get us on this path, but he told me at dinner one night eons ago:
"I don't understand these kinds of accidents, this landing in atrocious weather...I've never flown anywhere in the world where simply waiting 45 minutes to 1 hour won't let the worst of the stuff pass. I've had a very boring flying career and I intend to keep it that way!"
Worked for him in his 35+ year career - safely retired (with a much diminished pension! Another crime that can be taken-up elsewhere). I, too, have succesfully so far, used his philosophy.
So, IMHO in this case: What's was the rush?
Just something to consider as a possible "takeaway" from this accident.
Thanks for reading.
Cheers, SK8TRBOI
"I don't understand these kinds of accidents, this landing in atrocious weather...I've never flown anywhere in the world where simply waiting 45 minutes to 1 hour won't let the worst of the stuff pass. I've had a very boring flying career and I intend to keep it that way!"
Worked for him in his 35+ year career - safely retired (with a much diminished pension! Another crime that can be taken-up elsewhere). I, too, have succesfully so far, used his philosophy.
So, IMHO in this case: What's was the rush?
Just something to consider as a possible "takeaway" from this accident.
Thanks for reading.
Cheers, SK8TRBOI
Last edited by SK8TRBOI; 29th Dec 2009 at 14:48. Reason: sp
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Yes, I agree with him. I give myself at least 2 freebees every year when I am flying so even though it is legal I don't land until I want to. Let the storm pass and make it easy. So far I have only used one but the one approach that could bite you is illiminated. why push it.
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I'm a Godson of a retrired "PanAm-then-United" 747 check airman. I don't recall what particular accident had recently occured involing weather and landing, to get us on this path, but he told me at dinner one night eons ago:
"I don't understand these kinds of accidents, this landing in atrocious weather...I've never flown anywhere in the world where simply waiting 45 minutes to 1 hour won't let the worst of the stuff pass. I've had a very boring flying career and I intend to keep it tha way!"
Worked for him in his 35+ year career - safely retired (with a much diminished pension! Another crime that can be taken-up elsewhere). I, too, have succesfully so far, used his philosophy.
So, IMHO in this case: What's was the rush?
Just something to consider as a possible "takeaway" from this accident.
Thanks for reading.
"I don't understand these kinds of accidents, this landing in atrocious weather...I've never flown anywhere in the world where simply waiting 45 minutes to 1 hour won't let the worst of the stuff pass. I've had a very boring flying career and I intend to keep it tha way!"
Worked for him in his 35+ year career - safely retired (with a much diminished pension! Another crime that can be taken-up elsewhere). I, too, have succesfully so far, used his philosophy.
So, IMHO in this case: What's was the rush?
Just something to consider as a possible "takeaway" from this accident.
Thanks for reading.
Last edited by captjns; 29th Dec 2009 at 17:07.
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Yesterday, Colonel Anthony 'Bunny' Stern, a veteran aviation expert, dismissed the insinuation that the absence of the approach lights could have contributed to the crash.
Our airline performed subservice for Cayman Airways in the 727 to Cayman Brac... at night too... witout Papi... Vasi... or ILS sometimes with driving rain... sometimes a full moon with calm winds.
Part of a rate ride in the US is to accomplish a visual approach without any visual cues other then the runway environment. Our company required the manuever be demonstrated every 6 months in the simulator as well as in the aircraft too.
Wish I had the features of the NG... but we didn't. With that being said for over 9 months it was our safe operation with the disciplines and adherences to SOPs that kept is a safe operation.
Last edited by captjns; 29th Dec 2009 at 17:06.
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THE pilot of American Airlines flight 331, which crashed at the Norman Manley International Airport (NMIA) in Kingston last Tuesday night, opted not to utilise a mis-approach, as suggested by local air traffic controllers, the Observer has learnt.
The mis-approach option -- which would require the pilot to circle and make another landing attempt -- was offered as the Boeing 737-800 approached the runway with a tailwind and in driving rain which, according
to local aviation sources, was not heavy enough to prevent the aircraft from landing without problems.
"Three flights landed in the hour before the American Airlines flight," a source at the airport told the Observer yesterday. "It was raining just as heavily at the time they landed. I know the option was communicated to him, but I can't say anything more as the matter is under investigation."
Before AA331 crashed: Pilot opted against mis-approach - JamaicaObserver.com
The mis-approach option -- which would require the pilot to circle and make another landing attempt -- was offered as the Boeing 737-800 approached the runway with a tailwind and in driving rain which, according
to local aviation sources, was not heavy enough to prevent the aircraft from landing without problems.
"Three flights landed in the hour before the American Airlines flight," a source at the airport told the Observer yesterday. "It was raining just as heavily at the time they landed. I know the option was communicated to him, but I can't say anything more as the matter is under investigation."
Before AA331 crashed: Pilot opted against mis-approach - JamaicaObserver.com
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Tri-colored VASI
This is a single light that appears amber above the glide slope, green on the glide slope and red below it. It is rarely used, partly because pilots who are unfamiliar with them have been known to misinterpret the lights, causing them to 'correct' in the wrong direction. Despite this shortcoming, it is (reportedly) in widespread use in Eastern European countries, especially Russia and Ukraine.
...
I've flown a tri color vasi once...what can I say...it works as advertised.
This is a single light that appears amber above the glide slope, green on the glide slope and red below it. It is rarely used, partly because pilots who are unfamiliar with them have been known to misinterpret the lights, causing them to 'correct' in the wrong direction. Despite this shortcoming, it is (reportedly) in widespread use in Eastern European countries, especially Russia and Ukraine.
...
I've flown a tri color vasi once...what can I say...it works as advertised.
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Went into the dominican republic one night in a 727 15 years ago trying to follow the lights and knew looking at the runway I was too low so leveled out and ignored it. Everything worked out fine but guess a mule stepped on one side of the vasi and made it 1 degree instead of 3. Also all notams said the vor was fine until 3 miles out before starting the approach when I was advised the vor was out of service and the ndb was now in use. Also they said it was clear skies and we broke out of the ndb approach over the water about 800 ft. It was an airport we never flew in to so dispatch sent us charts. One of those nights when you know you have to look out for your selves.
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waves,
Tower never suggests a missed approach. That is the pilots job. He probably offered a circle to land approach to land into the wind. The pilots didn't think it was required. The tower is concerned about separation not operation of a flight.
Tower never suggests a missed approach. That is the pilots job. He probably offered a circle to land approach to land into the wind. The pilots didn't think it was required. The tower is concerned about separation not operation of a flight.
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P51guy...
I think the wrong terminology was used in this published statement......The tower offered a runway 30 approach which the captain declined...
All these statements will be released in the NTSB data...
I think the wrong terminology was used in this published statement......The tower offered a runway 30 approach which the captain declined...
All these statements will be released in the NTSB data...
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Many similarities ...
TACA 767 skids off the runway at Guatemala Airport
TACA 767 skids off the runway at Guatemala Airport
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Jamaican Officials Probe AA331 Touchdown Point
Christopher Read An American Airlines plane that careened off the end of a runway, crashing and breaking into three pieces, landed approximately 4,000 feet down an 8,900 foot runway, investigators in Jamaica said Monday. Investigators are now trying to determine why the pilots flew over nearly half of the runway before first setting the wheels down, leaving significantly less distance to bring the jet to a stop.
Jamaica's Director of Civil Aviation, Col. Oscar Derby, told NBCDFW that investigators are also looking into what role tailwinds, and a rain soaked runway may have played in the crash.
"We are looking at all of the indicators to to figure out what the main contributor was to the runway excursion", Derby said.
Flight 331 landed in rainy weather, shortly after a thunderstorm passed over Kingston, Jamaica, on Dec. 23. Dozens of people on board the plane were injured, but there were no fatalities.
Stronger than expected tailwinds, equipment malfunctions, or pilot error could all be contributing factors, investigators said. The 737-800 involved in the crash is equipped with a "heads-up" display system designed to help guide the plane in for landing within the first 1,000 feet of the runway in inclement weather, if the system is functioning properly. It's not clear whether the pilots were using that system at the time of landing.
The union that respresents the American Airlines pilots would not comment on the specifics of the investigation, but defended the pilots actions.
"The landing overrun accident was a scary event in challenging weather conditions, said Scott Shankland, spokesman for the Allied Pilots Association. "We remain confident our pilots did everything possible to try and stop the aircraft before the end of the runway", he said. Shankland added that the union believes crew's actions in evacuating the plane after the incident saved lives.
U.S. sources familiar with the investigation said the plane was carrying extra fuel for the return trip to Miami, a practice known as "ferrying fuel". The weight of the extra fuel may have made the plane harder to stop. It was still moving fast, at a rate of about 60 knots, when it left the runway, sources said.
The asphalt runway surface at the Kingston airport does not have grooves to collect and disperse standing water in heavy rain, a feature that's common at many large U.S. airports.
"We're looking into that as well, Col. Derby said, we don't know the extent to which it would have contributed."
Fort Worth-based American Airlines spokesman Tim Wagner said he could not comment, because of the on-going investigation involving Jamaican authorities and the National Transportation Safety Board.
Jamaican Officials Probe AA331 Touchdown Point | NBC Dallas-Fort Worth
Christopher Read An American Airlines plane that careened off the end of a runway, crashing and breaking into three pieces, landed approximately 4,000 feet down an 8,900 foot runway, investigators in Jamaica said Monday. Investigators are now trying to determine why the pilots flew over nearly half of the runway before first setting the wheels down, leaving significantly less distance to bring the jet to a stop.
Jamaica's Director of Civil Aviation, Col. Oscar Derby, told NBCDFW that investigators are also looking into what role tailwinds, and a rain soaked runway may have played in the crash.
"We are looking at all of the indicators to to figure out what the main contributor was to the runway excursion", Derby said.
Flight 331 landed in rainy weather, shortly after a thunderstorm passed over Kingston, Jamaica, on Dec. 23. Dozens of people on board the plane were injured, but there were no fatalities.
Stronger than expected tailwinds, equipment malfunctions, or pilot error could all be contributing factors, investigators said. The 737-800 involved in the crash is equipped with a "heads-up" display system designed to help guide the plane in for landing within the first 1,000 feet of the runway in inclement weather, if the system is functioning properly. It's not clear whether the pilots were using that system at the time of landing.
The union that respresents the American Airlines pilots would not comment on the specifics of the investigation, but defended the pilots actions.
"The landing overrun accident was a scary event in challenging weather conditions, said Scott Shankland, spokesman for the Allied Pilots Association. "We remain confident our pilots did everything possible to try and stop the aircraft before the end of the runway", he said. Shankland added that the union believes crew's actions in evacuating the plane after the incident saved lives.
U.S. sources familiar with the investigation said the plane was carrying extra fuel for the return trip to Miami, a practice known as "ferrying fuel". The weight of the extra fuel may have made the plane harder to stop. It was still moving fast, at a rate of about 60 knots, when it left the runway, sources said.
The asphalt runway surface at the Kingston airport does not have grooves to collect and disperse standing water in heavy rain, a feature that's common at many large U.S. airports.
"We're looking into that as well, Col. Derby said, we don't know the extent to which it would have contributed."
Fort Worth-based American Airlines spokesman Tim Wagner said he could not comment, because of the on-going investigation involving Jamaican authorities and the National Transportation Safety Board.
Jamaican Officials Probe AA331 Touchdown Point | NBC Dallas-Fort Worth
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touchdown point.
well, this says alot. 4000' down a 9000' runway sure says something to me.
Now, why? Was the tailwind worse than reported? Were there lighting issues on the runway?
And it sure is easier to land in bad wx on a runway with tdz lighting system.
While there are many lighting cues on a runway even without the tdz lighting system, it is time to realize....EITHER DO IT RIGHT or don't do it at all. All runways should be great, not mediocre.
well, this says alot. 4000' down a 9000' runway sure says something to me.
Now, why? Was the tailwind worse than reported? Were there lighting issues on the runway?
And it sure is easier to land in bad wx on a runway with tdz lighting system.
While there are many lighting cues on a runway even without the tdz lighting system, it is time to realize....EITHER DO IT RIGHT or don't do it at all. All runways should be great, not mediocre.
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"Deep Landing!" aural alert, Rwy Quality
Brief video offers one of Honeywell's available alerts when pilots become fixated-biased toward task:
Honeywell : Runway Safety , click on "Long Landing (or Deep Landing)"
For a more complete overview of alerts, click on
"Air Transport Runway Safety Animation"
A software solution: minimal downtime, minimal crew training.
Additionally, ATSB published a TWO PART study of Rwy Excursions (2009):
Honeywell : Runway Safety , click on "Long Landing (or Deep Landing)"
For a more complete overview of alerts, click on
"Air Transport Runway Safety Animation"
A software solution: minimal downtime, minimal crew training.
Additionally, ATSB published a TWO PART study of Rwy Excursions (2009):
Runway excursions: Part 1 - A worldwide review of commercial jet aircraft runway excursions, ar2008018_1 [
PDF: 3.43MB]
Runway excursions: Part 2 - Minimising the likelihood and consequences of runway excursions - An Australian perspective, ar2008018_2 [PDF: 2.76MB]
Excerpt from Pt 2, pg 39:PDF: 3.43MB]Runway excursions: Part 2 - Minimising the likelihood and consequences of runway excursions - An Australian perspective, ar2008018_2 [
PDF: 2.76MB]Runway camber and transverse slope
"Runway cambering or transverse sloping allows water to drain to the side of the runway, which stops standing water pools from forming. ... Standards ... runways over 30 m in width to have a transverse slope between one and two per cent of the runway width.
Runway macrotexture
The provision of adequate runway surface macrotexture is a proven, cheap and effective way of reducing the likelihood of runway excursions. It improves the runoff of water and impedes the formation of standing water ..."
"Runway cambering or transverse sloping allows water to drain to the side of the runway, which stops standing water pools from forming. ... Standards ... runways over 30 m in width to have a transverse slope between one and two per cent of the runway width.
Runway macrotexture
The provision of adequate runway surface macrotexture is a proven, cheap and effective way of reducing the likelihood of runway excursions. It improves the runoff of water and impedes the formation of standing water ..."
Last edited by IGh; 30th Dec 2009 at 19:01.