Foreign pilots flying for US Carriers
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There is no doubt from the ad I posted that you had to have a US passport, it didn't say "or". Read it carefully.
I know there is no doubt in the ad… Read carefully what I said which is “most airlines” and obviously not that airline… Basically, the ad incorporates a linguistic error or rather they list the requirements in two separate paragraphs instead of one like many airlines will do but they too have to follow the law…
I'm not sure when your friends were hired but in the post 9-11 hiring, US passports became very important with some companies, whether noted upfront or an unofficial policy. It wasn't a problem prior to that.
Having gone to numerous HR events in the past (Airinc, OBAP, WAI, etc) I developed friendships with many recruiters at different airlines… Is it possible that some people out there are sexist, racist, biased, etc? You bet you, that exists all over the world and I’m sure those people will use whatever excuse to turn someone down if they don’t like the person’s race, gender, nation of origin, etc, etc…
However to arbitrarily claim that airlines ‘require’ US passports is simply not true… Statistics do not lie and there are numerous non-US passport holders at many different airlines, including many major airlines (and the ones you've mentioned) that have been hired both before and after 9/11.
I can't give you details of my experience with certain applications (to protect the inside sources) but I can assure you it's a factor. Suing would be fruitless, hard to prove and would ruin your name with other pursuits. I heard about somebody who already tried that.
I’m sorry someone turned you down and that you think it was because of you being born outside the US. Maybe that’s exactly what happened, who knows?
However, if that’s the case then it’s about that one person or persons being biased and NOT about some kind of “unofficial airline policy” because that policy does not exist.
As far as a lawsuit being fruitless – I guarantee you that the ACLU fanatics would’ve found a way to make it very “fruitful” if there were grounds for a lawsuit. Additionally you could’ve done it anonymously…
Again, my point is please blame the guilty individuals rather than some kind of orchestrated secret airline policy…
I know there is no doubt in the ad… Read carefully what I said which is “most airlines” and obviously not that airline… Basically, the ad incorporates a linguistic error or rather they list the requirements in two separate paragraphs instead of one like many airlines will do but they too have to follow the law…
I'm not sure when your friends were hired but in the post 9-11 hiring, US passports became very important with some companies, whether noted upfront or an unofficial policy. It wasn't a problem prior to that.
Having gone to numerous HR events in the past (Airinc, OBAP, WAI, etc) I developed friendships with many recruiters at different airlines… Is it possible that some people out there are sexist, racist, biased, etc? You bet you, that exists all over the world and I’m sure those people will use whatever excuse to turn someone down if they don’t like the person’s race, gender, nation of origin, etc, etc…
However to arbitrarily claim that airlines ‘require’ US passports is simply not true… Statistics do not lie and there are numerous non-US passport holders at many different airlines, including many major airlines (and the ones you've mentioned) that have been hired both before and after 9/11.
I can't give you details of my experience with certain applications (to protect the inside sources) but I can assure you it's a factor. Suing would be fruitless, hard to prove and would ruin your name with other pursuits. I heard about somebody who already tried that.
I’m sorry someone turned you down and that you think it was because of you being born outside the US. Maybe that’s exactly what happened, who knows?
However, if that’s the case then it’s about that one person or persons being biased and NOT about some kind of “unofficial airline policy” because that policy does not exist.
As far as a lawsuit being fruitless – I guarantee you that the ACLU fanatics would’ve found a way to make it very “fruitful” if there were grounds for a lawsuit. Additionally you could’ve done it anonymously…
Again, my point is please blame the guilty individuals rather than some kind of orchestrated secret airline policy…
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I've provided some links to back up my point, here's another with the following judgement
(a). Cease and desist from the unfair immigration-related employment
practice found in this case, i.e., preference for U.S. citizen hires in
violation of 8 U.S.C. § 1324b;
http://www.usdoj.gov/eoir/OcahoMain/...Volume1/74.pdf
I would be interested to see the stats you talk about, especially since 2005/06 among some majors. And I'm only talking about new hires since then, not pilots already employed who were foreigners.
I'm happy at the major where I work, but I know that I've seen this kind of thing with others in the past. Not a matter of sour grapes as things turned out for the better anyway. Just relaying some experiences from myself and others.
(a). Cease and desist from the unfair immigration-related employment
practice found in this case, i.e., preference for U.S. citizen hires in
violation of 8 U.S.C. § 1324b;
http://www.usdoj.gov/eoir/OcahoMain/...Volume1/74.pdf
I would be interested to see the stats you talk about, especially since 2005/06 among some majors. And I'm only talking about new hires since then, not pilots already employed who were foreigners.
I'm happy at the major where I work, but I know that I've seen this kind of thing with others in the past. Not a matter of sour grapes as things turned out for the better anyway. Just relaying some experiences from myself and others.
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I've provided some links to back up my point, here's another with the following judgement
(a). Cease and desist from the unfair immigration-related employment
practice found in this case, i.e., preference for U.S. citizen hires in
violation of 8 U.S.C. § 1324b;
http://www.usdoj.gov/eoir/OcahoMain/...Volume1/74.pdf
I’ve tried to read the entire document and it wasn’t easy… I failed my English Legalese class…
I’m a little confused why you'd bring up this particular case? It's a 20+ year old case and it deals with a small (at the time) regional airline; most of all there is this statement in there clarifying that ‘intending to become a US citizen" is no longer required:
“Contrary to its prior position, the Department no longer requires that a declaration be completed and filed before the occurrence of the alleged discrimination. That change in policy and interpretation which became effective on November 30, 1988…”
Way before my time but from what I understand in the past people used to sign a statement saying that one day they’d apply for US citizenship. However, that "promise" was never followed up on so many people never applied despite signing the form…
In a way it’s similar to today when many people become dual citizens despite the "promise" they make to the US - “…I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state, or sovereignty of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen;…”
I’m sure you know some pilots who’re dual citizens, don’t you? So it’s another one of those "we would like for you to do this but we won’t actually enforce it" deals…
In your example, after 1988 they even stopped asking people to obligate themselves to apply for the US citizenship (at least according to your article)… That's my, admittedly limited, understanding of this whole procedure...
Either way, you believe the US airlines have a hidden anti-alien agenda while I don’t, even though I acknowledge there are some biased individuals out there – so let’s agree to disagree… I only wish the European airlines were as accommodating to American pilots in Europe as the US airlines are to the European pilots (in both cases I’m talking about permanent residents.) Disclaimer – born and raised in Europe myself…
I would be interested to see the stats you talk about, especially since 2005/06 among some majors. And I'm only talking about new hires since then, not pilots already employed who were foreigners.
Since you mentioned CAL before - in the last 3 years or so I know of 2 Norwegians and 1 German hired at CAL… One of them was in one of the last classes they had… The German is about to become a US citizens; not because he has to but because he wants to be able to vote – he wasn’t too happy about the last prez election… Either way, I’m sure you’ll run into discrimination every now and then but I think you’ll see that everywhere… ACLU would’ve loved to represent you or your friend… 
I'm happy at the major where I work, but I know that I've seen this kind of thing with others in the past. Not a matter of sour grapes as things turned out for the better anyway. Just relaying some experiences from myself and others.
I agree with you that things always happen for a reason so I’m glad you’re happy where you are.
Take care…
(a). Cease and desist from the unfair immigration-related employment
practice found in this case, i.e., preference for U.S. citizen hires in
violation of 8 U.S.C. § 1324b;
http://www.usdoj.gov/eoir/OcahoMain/...Volume1/74.pdf
I’ve tried to read the entire document and it wasn’t easy… I failed my English Legalese class…
I’m a little confused why you'd bring up this particular case? It's a 20+ year old case and it deals with a small (at the time) regional airline; most of all there is this statement in there clarifying that ‘intending to become a US citizen" is no longer required:
“Contrary to its prior position, the Department no longer requires that a declaration be completed and filed before the occurrence of the alleged discrimination. That change in policy and interpretation which became effective on November 30, 1988…”
Way before my time but from what I understand in the past people used to sign a statement saying that one day they’d apply for US citizenship. However, that "promise" was never followed up on so many people never applied despite signing the form…
In a way it’s similar to today when many people become dual citizens despite the "promise" they make to the US - “…I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state, or sovereignty of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen;…”
I’m sure you know some pilots who’re dual citizens, don’t you? So it’s another one of those "we would like for you to do this but we won’t actually enforce it" deals…
In your example, after 1988 they even stopped asking people to obligate themselves to apply for the US citizenship (at least according to your article)… That's my, admittedly limited, understanding of this whole procedure...
Either way, you believe the US airlines have a hidden anti-alien agenda while I don’t, even though I acknowledge there are some biased individuals out there – so let’s agree to disagree… I only wish the European airlines were as accommodating to American pilots in Europe as the US airlines are to the European pilots (in both cases I’m talking about permanent residents.) Disclaimer – born and raised in Europe myself…
I would be interested to see the stats you talk about, especially since 2005/06 among some majors. And I'm only talking about new hires since then, not pilots already employed who were foreigners.
Since you mentioned CAL before - in the last 3 years or so I know of 2 Norwegians and 1 German hired at CAL… One of them was in one of the last classes they had… The German is about to become a US citizens; not because he has to but because he wants to be able to vote – he wasn’t too happy about the last prez election…
Either way, I’m sure you’ll run into discrimination every now and then but I think you’ll see that everywhere… ACLU would’ve loved to represent you or your friend… I'm happy at the major where I work, but I know that I've seen this kind of thing with others in the past. Not a matter of sour grapes as things turned out for the better anyway. Just relaying some experiences from myself and others.
I agree with you that things always happen for a reason so I’m glad you’re happy where you are.
Take care…
Last edited by USav8or; 26th Jul 2009 at 07:19.
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Well I know two Norwegians that were hired at Delta, one in 2007 one in 2008. US companies cannot discriminate against background if the applicant has all the legal work requirements. Smaller companies are far more likely to discriminate than a major airline, but even my small company hired "green card" holders.
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Hello
Hi guys,
my name is Vassil Spirtov and I am from Bulgaria, Eastern Europe.I am sure that here I would meet a lot of experienced people that could give me any idea or solution about my case but first let me briefly introduce myself.
I already got my FAA CPL/SE/ME/IR pilot license in a flight school located in Houston, Texas.I completed my entire flight training under Part 61 and I logged in around 300 flight hours.I used to fly airplanes like C152, C172(some carburetor models), C172R(fuel injected), C172RG(which is a single engine complex airplane), Piper Seneca-43-200 and Piper Geronimo-23-180.I had a great time flying in the USA and I had the chance to do couple of very long cross country flights,the first one from Houston to Miami in Florida and the second one from Houston to Las Vegas in the state of Nevada.I even got my spin endorsement,which is not a part of the training for a commercial pilot but it was my choice,so I added one more endorsement in my logbook.I got M-1 visa for my flight training in November 2010 and I successfully finished everything in September 2011.I would do it much faster than that but the maintenance in the school wasn't so good and I got some troubles with the airplanes I used to fly and besides,I got a financial problem so I was supposed to stop flying for a month.
Anyway,after I finished and got my FAA license I came back to my country where I started to work on the process of issuing a JAA license(the one pilots have in Europe).It is actually kind of conversion process and based on the flight experience I got in the USA I will be issued a JAA one.Well,I already finished all the 14 JAA ATPL(A) written tests,that you have maybe heard about,with an average score of 93.5 %.My next step is getting an anual flight check on a Multi Engine airplane here in my country with a local examiner since they must be sure of flying skills too and then I will be working on getting an ICAO Level of English proficiency,I need minimum Level 4.Finally they will issue me JAA CPL and ATPL(A) frozen license(the word 'frozen' in Europe says that,when I pass the written exams mentioned above I have my European ATPL(A) on a paper and once I reach 1500 flight hours on any type rated airplane I would have the real ATPL(A) license).
I am a former military too,I graduated from a the Aviation Academy in my country in 2006 and I was promoted in the rank of lieutenant.Then I worked in the Air Force as a lieutenant, Air Traffic Controller for about two years and in 2008 I was laid off because great reforms have been taking place that time in the Ministry of Defense in my country and many young lieutenants like had the same destiny.I got a higher diploma with a Bachelor Degree from the academy.
I am trying to do is to find a way out to go back to the USA and continue to study as a flight instructor there,then get a job and build more flight experience so that I would be able to apply for some local airlines in the future.
I've read through a lot of comments,some of them seemingly true,others nonsense,that there are ways out for foreigners to go to the USA and fly there for profit.I would like to know which is the best way for me to do that.
Is it through F-1 or J-1 or H-1B visa,or maybe green card?I myself dropped an application for the green card lottery this year but with no result!
I would appreciate your comments!Feel free to put the on the wall any time!
my name is Vassil Spirtov and I am from Bulgaria, Eastern Europe.I am sure that here I would meet a lot of experienced people that could give me any idea or solution about my case but first let me briefly introduce myself.
I already got my FAA CPL/SE/ME/IR pilot license in a flight school located in Houston, Texas.I completed my entire flight training under Part 61 and I logged in around 300 flight hours.I used to fly airplanes like C152, C172(some carburetor models), C172R(fuel injected), C172RG(which is a single engine complex airplane), Piper Seneca-43-200 and Piper Geronimo-23-180.I had a great time flying in the USA and I had the chance to do couple of very long cross country flights,the first one from Houston to Miami in Florida and the second one from Houston to Las Vegas in the state of Nevada.I even got my spin endorsement,which is not a part of the training for a commercial pilot but it was my choice,so I added one more endorsement in my logbook.I got M-1 visa for my flight training in November 2010 and I successfully finished everything in September 2011.I would do it much faster than that but the maintenance in the school wasn't so good and I got some troubles with the airplanes I used to fly and besides,I got a financial problem so I was supposed to stop flying for a month.
Anyway,after I finished and got my FAA license I came back to my country where I started to work on the process of issuing a JAA license(the one pilots have in Europe).It is actually kind of conversion process and based on the flight experience I got in the USA I will be issued a JAA one.Well,I already finished all the 14 JAA ATPL(A) written tests,that you have maybe heard about,with an average score of 93.5 %.My next step is getting an anual flight check on a Multi Engine airplane here in my country with a local examiner since they must be sure of flying skills too and then I will be working on getting an ICAO Level of English proficiency,I need minimum Level 4.Finally they will issue me JAA CPL and ATPL(A) frozen license(the word 'frozen' in Europe says that,when I pass the written exams mentioned above I have my European ATPL(A) on a paper and once I reach 1500 flight hours on any type rated airplane I would have the real ATPL(A) license).
I am a former military too,I graduated from a the Aviation Academy in my country in 2006 and I was promoted in the rank of lieutenant.Then I worked in the Air Force as a lieutenant, Air Traffic Controller for about two years and in 2008 I was laid off because great reforms have been taking place that time in the Ministry of Defense in my country and many young lieutenants like had the same destiny.I got a higher diploma with a Bachelor Degree from the academy.
I am trying to do is to find a way out to go back to the USA and continue to study as a flight instructor there,then get a job and build more flight experience so that I would be able to apply for some local airlines in the future.
I've read through a lot of comments,some of them seemingly true,others nonsense,that there are ways out for foreigners to go to the USA and fly there for profit.I would like to know which is the best way for me to do that.
Is it through F-1 or J-1 or H-1B visa,or maybe green card?I myself dropped an application for the green card lottery this year but with no result!
I would appreciate your comments!Feel free to put the on the wall any time!
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I only wish the European airlines were as accommodating to American pilots in Europe as the US airlines are to the European pilots
Last edited by Denti; 9th Jul 2012 at 08:39.
