TSA hindering Non US Citizens hiring?
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TSA hindering Non US Citizens hiring?
Hey guys, I was just wondering whether any Residents or Greencard holders like myself are having problems getting hired with the regionals because of the new TSA ruling?
I've had 2 airlines say "we'll get back to you" after having answered no to the question "are you a US citizen?". I've found it very frustrating considering it is illegal to deny employment to someone who is legally employable.
I understand that the process for the background check may be more lengthy and costly for non US citizens but can they expect to fill the regional pilot void with only citizens?
I've had 2 airlines say "we'll get back to you" after having answered no to the question "are you a US citizen?". I've found it very frustrating considering it is illegal to deny employment to someone who is legally employable.
I understand that the process for the background check may be more lengthy and costly for non US citizens but can they expect to fill the regional pilot void with only citizens?
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I have also been having some trouble due to the fact that I am not a US Citizen. I am a US resident (greencard holder) and FAA License holder, currently living in the USA. I am from Australia.
I am even finding it hard to find a General Aviation Position due to the fact that I am not a US citizen. I have actually been told by employers that they will not hire Greencard holders even though their employment policies state otherwise.
I got my greencard and FAA ratings before the new TSA rule came into place, however that doesnt seem to matter.
I am a 1300 hour pilot, I would take anything at the moment...
I am even finding it hard to find a General Aviation Position due to the fact that I am not a US citizen. I have actually been told by employers that they will not hire Greencard holders even though their employment policies state otherwise.
I got my greencard and FAA ratings before the new TSA rule came into place, however that doesnt seem to matter.
I am a 1300 hour pilot, I would take anything at the moment...
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first off, it is true there is discrimination going on and big time, however, since you mentioned the regionals, it may be that you did not apply to the ones that are known to hire green card holders. Go take a look on Flightinfo.com and do a search there you will find lots of talk about this and learn the right companies as well.
As for having being told no due to you being a non US citizen, if that is true, you can file a claim with the EEOC and they will put a lawyer on it. Incase you do not know, there are companies as well that you must be a citizen as they carry the US mail or military.
Good luck and know there are many of you out there.
As for having being told no due to you being a non US citizen, if that is true, you can file a claim with the EEOC and they will put a lawyer on it. Incase you do not know, there are companies as well that you must be a citizen as they carry the US mail or military.
Good luck and know there are many of you out there.
Last edited by micia; 11th Feb 2005 at 17:54.
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thanks
Thanks for the advice but strangely enough I have been checking to see if a US passport is required. I understand that Fedex, UPS, DHL....all require them and have stayed away from applying there. I'll check out the website tho.
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for Fedex, DHL and UPS, you need to have been in the uSA for at least 5 years before thy will even look at your application.
I got my FAA APT a week or so ago and have been on the jobhunt ever since. 52 resumes gone out so far, not one reply....
not been hassled by TSA as a pilot, since havent even been to any airport as a pilot where there are TSA people!
maybe we should start out own little grapevine, since were all 'aliens' and let each other know if we find out anything ?
I got my FAA APT a week or so ago and have been on the jobhunt ever since. 52 resumes gone out so far, not one reply....
not been hassled by TSA as a pilot, since havent even been to any airport as a pilot where there are TSA people!
maybe we should start out own little grapevine, since were all 'aliens' and let each other know if we find out anything ?
I've just been hired at a small Part 135 mob. No worries at all about being a non-citizen. They only wanted the right to work & a SS number. Even my temporary work authority pending my permanent residency is acceptable.
I think their positive attitude is down to two reasons:
1. Their most senior pilot is also in the same situation as me, and
2. Pragmatically, they've had trouble keeping up with a high movement rate into regional airlines due the Part 135 minimum experience requirements being quite competitive.
One slight hiccup: I've had to apply for 'advanced parole' to be able to leave & re-enter the US. A significant part of the company's work is to the Bahamas & Caribbean.
I think their positive attitude is down to two reasons:
1. Their most senior pilot is also in the same situation as me, and
2. Pragmatically, they've had trouble keeping up with a high movement rate into regional airlines due the Part 135 minimum experience requirements being quite competitive.
One slight hiccup: I've had to apply for 'advanced parole' to be able to leave & re-enter the US. A significant part of the company's work is to the Bahamas & Caribbean.
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Congrats on the job tinstaafl. Did not know you were in the US now.
The background check is not especially cumbersome, it consists of someone faxing a sheet of paper that you signed and waiting a week to get it back. They also email the individual now with the permission to begin 121 training. Lots of regionals hire foreign citizens.. mine included.
Like it was said.. go to www.flightinfo.com and search past threads on this topic. you will find a lot of good info.
As for the advance parole, that is such bullsiht! I had to do that also. (I'm Australian by birth).
The background check is not especially cumbersome, it consists of someone faxing a sheet of paper that you signed and waiting a week to get it back. They also email the individual now with the permission to begin 121 training. Lots of regionals hire foreign citizens.. mine included.
Like it was said.. go to www.flightinfo.com and search past threads on this topic. you will find a lot of good info.
As for the advance parole, that is such bullsiht! I had to do that also. (I'm Australian by birth).
Ta Weasil.
Isn't this advanced parole thing a load of **** or what! It would have been so much easier if we'd married (anywhere) & she'd come to the UK or I'd gone back to Oz with her (I have dual nationality so either country is available). None of this one, two or even three year process just to be allowed to stay in the US, let alone the whole fiance visa carry on, the temp. work authority, advanced parole etc etc.
Isn't this advanced parole thing a load of **** or what! It would have been so much easier if we'd married (anywhere) & she'd come to the UK or I'd gone back to Oz with her (I have dual nationality so either country is available). None of this one, two or even three year process just to be allowed to stay in the US, let alone the whole fiance visa carry on, the temp. work authority, advanced parole etc etc.
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I had the same worry when I started applying to regionals last year. However, I ended up getting hired by the first one I interviewed at and 7 out of 14 people in my class were greencard holders.
The background check can be a bit of a nuisance, but doesn't seem to bother employers too much. The only time I can see it being a problem is if they need you to start right away.
The background check can be a bit of a nuisance, but doesn't seem to bother employers too much. The only time I can see it being a problem is if they need you to start right away.
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discrimination
Sorry guys, but under the interpetations of discrimination laws currently in use by US courts, it is not discrimination to use citizenship as a basis for employment. My current employer has been sued twice that I know of, for this very issue. Both times he won due to the government contracts that he holds that require US citizens. Being an international company, we do have many non-US citizens working for us, but not in certain job areas.
The biggest issue is the 12.5 rule the TSA has imposed on all operators of aircraft 12,500 pounds and above. It has taken 6 months or more to complete the requirements of the rule. I don't know of any company that is willing to deal with that.
And Cochise, yes there are more than enough US citizens available to fill the available pilot slots.
The biggest issue is the 12.5 rule the TSA has imposed on all operators of aircraft 12,500 pounds and above. It has taken 6 months or more to complete the requirements of the rule. I don't know of any company that is willing to deal with that.
And Cochise, yes there are more than enough US citizens available to fill the available pilot slots.
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Please....Give me a break... You might not be hired, because there are thousands of unemployed pilots here in the states with 10,000 hrs plus!! Also in the Job pool. 1,300 hrs just isn't competive?? Good luck, But as for Green cards and other non us pilots crying about not getting jobs....Try being a US pilot trying to get a job in the EU...( They make it ever so easy...NOT)
At leat you have a chance.. Very easy to use your JAR and get a FAA ATP NOT easy Using a FAA ATP and multi-type rating and getting a JAR.
Whaledog.
At leat you have a chance.. Very easy to use your JAR and get a FAA ATP NOT easy Using a FAA ATP and multi-type rating and getting a JAR.
Whaledog.
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Whaledog, I was not trying to sound ungreatful at all. I see myself as very fortunate to be in the USA and have the right to live and work here.
Firstly with 1300 hours I am not trying to go for the same jobs as a 10,000 hour pilot, nor should a 10,000 hour pilot be trying to go for the same job as a 1300 hour pilot. I dont have any intention of joining any US Airline (Major or Regional). I am just trying to earn a living just as much as anyone else.
I came to the USA from Australia with 1300 hours and a Commercial Multi Engine Instrument rating. When I arrived I was issued an FAA Private VFR only. I then proceeded to take the exams and fly the required hours and take my checkrides. NO COMPLAINTS!! I now have my MEL COM with Instrument.
I would never dream of taking an employer to court over presumed discrimination as I know after speaking to a chief pilot the other day about an advertised position, he told me he recieved 600+ resumes!! I know one of mine was in there, however I am sure the reason I didnt get the job was simply because there was someone better qualified for the position.
I think the purpose of this thread is for other 'aliens' or greencard holders to discuss their experiences and successions not to cry discrimination. Also to find out from others the current hiring situations and normal hiring practices for non US citizens. Maybe even to network a little...
0tter1 out
Firstly with 1300 hours I am not trying to go for the same jobs as a 10,000 hour pilot, nor should a 10,000 hour pilot be trying to go for the same job as a 1300 hour pilot. I dont have any intention of joining any US Airline (Major or Regional). I am just trying to earn a living just as much as anyone else.
I came to the USA from Australia with 1300 hours and a Commercial Multi Engine Instrument rating. When I arrived I was issued an FAA Private VFR only. I then proceeded to take the exams and fly the required hours and take my checkrides. NO COMPLAINTS!! I now have my MEL COM with Instrument.
I would never dream of taking an employer to court over presumed discrimination as I know after speaking to a chief pilot the other day about an advertised position, he told me he recieved 600+ resumes!! I know one of mine was in there, however I am sure the reason I didnt get the job was simply because there was someone better qualified for the position.
I think the purpose of this thread is for other 'aliens' or greencard holders to discuss their experiences and successions not to cry discrimination. Also to find out from others the current hiring situations and normal hiring practices for non US citizens. Maybe even to network a little...
0tter1 out
Whaledog, I'm not sure, but I think you have a misapprehension. It sounds to me as if you think there is some form of discrimination w.r.t. FAA <--> JAR licence conversions in the FAA --> JAR direction.
Not so. In general JAR mandate less course work time, and in some cases, fewer examinations/flight tests for an FAA (or other ICAO) licence holder than it does for those training wholly within the JAR system. FAR makes no such allowance for foreign licence holders. A foreign licence holder must complete the same exams & tests as a wholly FAR trained person.
I agree there is an argument about minimum mandated flight training for some things such as instrument training (15 hours), but the practicality is that a foreigner trying to get an FAA certificate would still end up having to do some amount US training to pass the FAA test - even if the training isn't specifically required.
If your argument is that it takes a lot more work to pass the theory for JAR then, yes, absolutely. Similarly if you went to Oz. However, that's not a result of discrimination, but purely what the regulatory authorities have decided must be known to hold their licence. It's hardly JARlala land's fault if the FAA doesn't prepare its pilots for the JAR exams (nor is it the FAA's fault if a foreign authority fails to prep. its pilot's for the FAA exam.)
Not so. In general JAR mandate less course work time, and in some cases, fewer examinations/flight tests for an FAA (or other ICAO) licence holder than it does for those training wholly within the JAR system. FAR makes no such allowance for foreign licence holders. A foreign licence holder must complete the same exams & tests as a wholly FAR trained person.
I agree there is an argument about minimum mandated flight training for some things such as instrument training (15 hours), but the practicality is that a foreigner trying to get an FAA certificate would still end up having to do some amount US training to pass the FAA test - even if the training isn't specifically required.
If your argument is that it takes a lot more work to pass the theory for JAR then, yes, absolutely. Similarly if you went to Oz. However, that's not a result of discrimination, but purely what the regulatory authorities have decided must be known to hold their licence. It's hardly JARlala land's fault if the FAA doesn't prepare its pilots for the JAR exams (nor is it the FAA's fault if a foreign authority fails to prep. its pilot's for the FAA exam.)
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You have some good points. But the "Right to work" in the EU is a very high wall to cross. Unless dear sweet grandmom came from the "Old" country.
Heck in the "states" we don't worry about how to deport "Illegals" the \goverment argues about giving them driving license and how we can't limit their access to all the "Benefits"( wellfare)
I think anyone who has followd the rules for a green card should be allowed to try and fulfill their dreams.
I was trying to point out that alot of folks are out of work in aviation right now, Plus the wages have been driven down 30%+
If i was a young man again there is no way I'd start down the pilot career path. I'd do something else. Career earnings would be higher.
To those starting, give strong thoughts to your carerr choice, Get a real good paying job , then BUY your own aircraft.
whale dog
Heck in the "states" we don't worry about how to deport "Illegals" the \goverment argues about giving them driving license and how we can't limit their access to all the "Benefits"( wellfare)
I think anyone who has followd the rules for a green card should be allowed to try and fulfill their dreams.
I was trying to point out that alot of folks are out of work in aviation right now, Plus the wages have been driven down 30%+
If i was a young man again there is no way I'd start down the pilot career path. I'd do something else. Career earnings would be higher.
To those starting, give strong thoughts to your carerr choice, Get a real good paying job , then BUY your own aircraft.
whale dog
I'd argue that obtaining the right to work in the EU is likely to be easier for any random individual in the world than for the USA. It's no joke getting a US greencard unless you're a fortunate greencard lottery winner.
The EU, meanwhile, has many, many countries, lots of whom carry legacy colony obligations or emmigrants to overseas. This often entitles potential EU immigrants to colony or parental rights in at least some country in the EU. The list of EU countries is also growing. I don't think there is much of an equivalent for the US.
The EU, meanwhile, has many, many countries, lots of whom carry legacy colony obligations or emmigrants to overseas. This often entitles potential EU immigrants to colony or parental rights in at least some country in the EU. The list of EU countries is also growing. I don't think there is much of an equivalent for the US.
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Americans will cry all the time thinking it is easy for people to get a green card, most have no idea what it takes to get one.
There is no comparison from the EU to there.
They do not have to have their fingerprints taken, pay money, go through family background checks or have a second sponsor to be given residence rights in an EU country. Go marry an EU resident and see the big difference.
Any American that thinks it is easy to get a green card is one huge ignoramus.
There is no comparison from the EU to there.
They do not have to have their fingerprints taken, pay money, go through family background checks or have a second sponsor to be given residence rights in an EU country. Go marry an EU resident and see the big difference.
Any American that thinks it is easy to get a green card is one huge ignoramus.
Last edited by micia; 16th Feb 2005 at 14:38.
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@ waledog,
I did my flight training in the US and was lucky enough to win a greencard in the lottery. For eight years I had to regurlarly endure the "Why do you steal US jobs, we can't go to Europe if WE wanted to" and other lines along that subject (this in a country that is founded on immigration and proclaims to be so tolerant).
When I went back to work for a commuter in Europe I was very suprised to see alot of (outside EU) foreigners including US nationals working there. I moved up to my coutries major flag carrier and the exact same. So whaledog US persons can work in Europe, It is not as one sided as you think and at least the foreigners working in the states have the courtesy to learn the local language and not complain about the opportunity they have been given which is more than I can say of many off your countrymen in my company.
I did my flight training in the US and was lucky enough to win a greencard in the lottery. For eight years I had to regurlarly endure the "Why do you steal US jobs, we can't go to Europe if WE wanted to" and other lines along that subject (this in a country that is founded on immigration and proclaims to be so tolerant).
When I went back to work for a commuter in Europe I was very suprised to see alot of (outside EU) foreigners including US nationals working there. I moved up to my coutries major flag carrier and the exact same. So whaledog US persons can work in Europe, It is not as one sided as you think and at least the foreigners working in the states have the courtesy to learn the local language and not complain about the opportunity they have been given which is more than I can say of many off your countrymen in my company.
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Oeps,
You got me there. But really I ment the people that come over to join the flying community. The hordes that come over each year to FL en CA from the south, that's a different story.
greetings
You got me there. But really I ment the people that come over to join the flying community. The hordes that come over each year to FL en CA from the south, that's a different story.
greetings
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I have been in the USA for more than 10 years -commuting overseas- and have accumulated quite a lot of Jet Time on the B747-400's in worldwide operations, have an excellent training record and flawless background, JAA ATPL, FAA ATPL etc.
My wife's family has been in the USA for at least the last 200 years and our children are all American born. Being a green-card holder, I am the only "alien" at home (that's what my 5 year old daughter calls me)
The commuting got a bit too much, so I applied with almost any airline of some reputation in the US, including NetJets and other Business Jet companies.
Needless to say, I have gotten job offers from all around the planet, but not ONE interview with a US company.
My wife's family has been in the USA for at least the last 200 years and our children are all American born. Being a green-card holder, I am the only "alien" at home (that's what my 5 year old daughter calls me)
The commuting got a bit too much, so I applied with almost any airline of some reputation in the US, including NetJets and other Business Jet companies.
Needless to say, I have gotten job offers from all around the planet, but not ONE interview with a US company.