Yes and my employer has just sent out a circular to those of us ex-apprentices in the company mentoring network if any of us would consent to recording a video for the upcoming National Apprenticeship Week.
They are probably looking for someone younger and prettier than me, though.

All of this is true. I worked on two major projects at Filton in the nineties & two thousands.
It was all contractor design workforce which they then let go. I self funded my Catia conversion course and then never got offered anything.
They were lining up the 'low cost' Indian engineers from the early 2000s. The writing was on the wall for all to see.

I have three mechs at the moment, one has just become a full mech from a trainee, we teach them all hands on as we go along and as mechs they have a progression scale, with increased renumeration, we also have about 6 apprentices at our main base IIRC, the previous course having just attained their licences.

We also encourage all of our mechs to progress to LAE level and provide them with help to do this.

With the shortages of B1’s and B2’s, it is in a companies interest to maximise their LAE manning from internal resources while adding new young mechs or trainee mechs into the pot and bringing them on as future LAE’s.

I as having held the rank of JT in the past, I often thought that it was a wrong move to remove that rank and skill achievement from the rank structure, it was rewarding and setting goals for progression onto Corporal by giving greater responsibility, a higher skill set and financial reward.

I believe the SAC Tech that replaced it, didn’t achieve that and in a way was probably a cheaper option for the RAF while dumbing down the lower rank structure.

I am now standing by for incoming.

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....7a61904aac.gif

That's a bit of unfounded / unwarranted criticism really. Any reason(s) why not ?

Leaving aside the BS / purely mil.aspects, please remember the training is entry level, plus subsequent experience, to progress in an engineering career.

As I've said, true, the training has been diluted, due to "management" and bean counter influences, but, it still offers a basis from which to progress.

That, and again, few intended to have " a 96 yr career " in the RAF. Unlike many of my civilian "colleagues" having direct experience of the civil sector, I was usually asked about what the real world was like.

I used to "strongly advise" about going onto the FJ world in the RAF and that the rotary / transport / maritime world would be more, ahem, beneficial for the future. That, and don't get fixated on the airline world when there were other engineering sectors that offered interesting and varied employment. Also, they couldn't just arrive at Scroggs Aviation with a shiny licence and say "gizza a job, and the big money " because it takes time to reach that level.

Oddly enough K and C, my service career was Rotary, Wessex Puma Chinook, FJ, Jaguar, then transport, VC10, all 1st line, so I left as a well rounded individual, engineering experience wise, my gain, the RAF’s loss.

I then progressed through various jets, Learjet range, Citation range, Falcon range, plus just about all piston types, including warbirds, that was another plus in my service career as I was on one of the last courses to do pistons engines .
My whole adult life has been spent in the aviation engineering world from joining up to now, 50 years plus and still counting, and I love it, everyday is a different challenge and I cannot forsee me retiring.

Because I did 25 years in the military and saw the downgrading of training and the opportunities of multi skilled engineering by exposure to more than 1st line by the contracturisation of 2nd and 4th to BAES. To get a basic LAE ticket now and 1st type on Any FW and RW type you have to do the OJT including repairs, wiring and avionics for B1 and B2. Have you got anyone through the current licencing regime of 1st type OJT? Just asking. You need to work in Line and Base to get it. Companies now must invest. I know enough guys that are ex Shadow that walked into a job outside as they were type rated and current LAEs. Why most of them took the role as get out. I loved my time in the RAF. But engineering wise for opportunities, it isn't the same. Only Armourers seem to want to jump into Civvy roles like KLM UKE I am told.

You didn't have to do Module 16 and do all the OJT to get it on you ticket. I wish I had just had to do a few Orals (that I would have passed) than the whole EASA post 2013 bull. We will see hopefully the modern day engineers on Channel 4 next week. Maybe. Probably not.

When I did my basic licences I did my A and C plus a Cessna 152 and Lycoming O-235 all at once, my thought process and it proved right was on my oral they were going to have to tailor it to that airframe and engine which were simpler than some they could have asked about as they were time limited for the oral. It proved right and the examiner wasn’t up to speed on either.

I should have done gas turbs at the same time as I was an ATechP in the RAF, but studying for 5 exams at once would have been a headache, remember then you fail a module you had to resit the lot.

Nutty: Like you, except as a rigga, I had a varied career of rotary and FW starting with totals of 14 years on rotary 10 on FW in the RAF. By the time I left the RAF I had A&C Turbine helicopters, A&C Piston aircraft and A&C Turbine Large aircraft. A further 25 years of civil maintenance experience followed from ATR72 / BAe146 to A320 / B767. I was just 737 classic and EC145 type rated but that allowed me to do multi-engined within 145 and CAMO on many types.
As a senior contractor on a military base I have seen the degradation of UK military maintenance and experience to basic Line Maintenance levels (they call it Forward now). ‘Depth’ is now almost all civvy with the odd post (normally management staff) being RAF. The senior ‘maintenance’ management i.e. the IPTs, Gp Cpt and above are almost purely money movers or contract manipulators who have almost no knowledge of engineering in any form, relying on those contracts to steer them and produce documents.

You would never had a CAA LWTR post 2006 unless you had certified worksheets representing one years employment in a Part 145 Org and proof of work on all ATAs signed off by a certifying LAE. Even the active interest bit (hello mate, can you sign off this duplicated work pack entry that has been used by 10 other people today?). I know of others that had civvy companies helping them get the hours and tasks when working unpaid at the weekend. How the CAA reckon that a guy can work 1500 hours on 145 tasks in a year or two working weekends was beyond my logic of hours of the day. It took me almost 3 years of full employment for me to get the tasks to get unrestricted B1 (the electrical / avionics tasks where the hardest, but I had two Sudanese LAEs whom taught me wire work, their standards were top notch and they knew the SWPM backwards (I did read up what they taught me). My QAM on my sponsor application for my basic rejected it (even though other LAEs said it was full enough). But he wasn't the head QAM that pitched up later before I left the company and I approached. He said "pass the book through one of the C Certs. Whom phoned him back 30 minutes later saying, Diff log book should get through Janet Cook (having never looked through it!) Signed off SRG form with CTC copies of my 741 forms sent to the CAA that day. Basic ticket received back 2 weeks later.

First Type rating was a repeat of the Basic. Had to do 2 type courses as first ran out of time on the revised OJT for first type. Had to do the Jet ****ty Type rating and OJT to get a first type and do my home base aircraft again. I did finish top of the class on that rating! So I should have done as worked on it for 4 years as A Cat.

You are totally correct on the dumbing down of RAF Engineering. Criminal. It was the ex technician serpents that kept IPTs going. I cannot look at an EngO as an engineer. Most are not. HNC or HND? Technician, not higher than I had in the mob. My training as a basic DE rigger was longer than a BEngO. People managers. Retention of technicians? They will never retain without having some parity.

DTS,

Whilst I am aware of the changes to the Licencing system, prior to this, the acquisition of a LWTR wasn't quite the " stroll in the park " you seem to imagine.

First, the CAA used negative marking on the written exams. .then came the oral and you were at the whims of the surveyor. I "failed" my first oral due to the surveyor being openly biased against former RAF or current charter operators engineers...I was, far, far from alone. He "failed" me for not, as he put it, being familiar with two small paragraphs in CAIP's ...He threatened others with a T/R to remove their T/R if they didn't meet his "standards" . My next attempt started well enough, identify bits n pieces, draw a schematic. follow a wiring diagram, but then we moved onto his speciality....Mach aerodynamics. ...the bare basics, yes, but certainly not the more advanced, plus maths, theory. I passed.

On the subject of undervalued engineers, the RAF persisted for many years with the "single trade"...I understand, and am open to correction, both RN articifers and former AAC before REME took over, engineers were, using A & C as an example, dual trained.

For me, not having engineers dual / multi-trained is undervaluing engineers.

When the RAF did, eventually, decide to follow this logical course, the conversion courses as it were could best be described as "overview meets basic " ...some recipients were only too happy to be gaining dual trained roles, others however were "somewhat reluctant " to put their more expansive knowledge to use. I became familiar with the " actually, I'm a legacy...(.select trade of choice) as to why they couldn't really deliver basic training....albeit the most notable was an airframe Cpl who claimed he didn't know how to wire lock....seriously !

As for basic electrics, they were shown how to use a fluke, true, not for every mode, but, enough for them to both understand and use one plus tracing basic circuit diagrams

I would agree that it wasn't a gimmie. But you could waltz out of the RAF with a LWTR under section L and not have worked in the industry outside. Not possible with 66. I agree, the cross dressing in the 2000s was a joke. I did happen to do the ATM prop course and Module 15 within 5 months of each other. Mod 15 was in RAF time, but I was disposed out in Iraq at the time. You do hit the nail on the head that the Orals were subjective on the opinion of the Surveyor. Not objective.

DTS. You are correct! - I had my A&Cs between 1989 and 1999 when I left the RAF and eventually converted then all to Pt 66 1.1, 1.2 and 1.3. As KnC says Negative Marking on exams meant that you needed to get 80% of your questions right to meet the 75% pass mark. I did indeed work (Evenings and weekends) on civvy aircraft for two years to get my log book validated. My first exam was for A&C Turbine Helicopters and I used the Whirlwind and Gnome as my study models (CAA hardly had a clue about them). My exam was 3 hours at Southall College for 90 vote-for-joe Q's and 4 essay questions. When I passed that I had an Oral exam in the cellar of the CAAs then Heathrow office. Three hours of questions, sat in a bare room at a desk with the surveyor sat opposite reading the Section L. While I didn't do Mach Numbers for my exam I still answered questions on supersonic intakes and exhausts - and wood repairs (?) When asked If I had passed all he said was "you'll do". In contrast, my last oral exam was 20 minutes in the CAAs then Horley offices with a cup of coffee and chatting with a friendly ex-RAF surveyor. As for the degradation of engineers - even in the 90s there were J/Ts who didn't know what an aileron was. In the 2010s there was a Navy tech in a Depth Hangar who split a heavily corroded plug off a connection to fix his continuity snag and then he tie-wrapped the plug back together. This was the mentality of First Line only experienced personnel in both the navy and RAF - what we used to call BDR techniques for all maintenance.

IIRC apprentices we’re dual trained and became Corporals one year after passing out of training, then there were the super tech apprentices which were 4 or 5 trade qualified that did 5 years at Stalag Halton passing out as Corporals.

The first dual trades I can remember came in about 78 with the Sea Kings.
We had an engines Chief that disappeared off for about a year to do the Halton airframe technicians course, then the Gnome / Sea King courses, what a waste, he was useless at his own trade, let alone giving him someone else’s.

As for the Orals, I got asked to tell the surveyor the firing sequence of a large radial engine, having read up on it only the night before for some strange reason, I rattled the firing sequence off to the gob smacked Surveyor.

Strangely, some years ago when I was helping work on a Spitfire, I was looking at the oil tank and blurted out “ohh it’s got a hotpot” None of then had the faintest idea what that was or even its purpose. Lol.

This really is maturing into a fascinating thread 👍
.

So it should. I know Rigga personally as he was QAM at a paint facility where I ended up almost running the 145 side of a fleet repaint of handover regional aircraft. My bare metal inspections were ruthless. Like Rigga, I was ex 431 MU and RSS to boot as well for my sins. I didn't do a pen off D and B. All were proper full on look at everything. My type doesn't like lightning strikes or rubbish production practices. I was everyday off to Part M on out of SRM damage requests. Get the OEM sign off for the D and B. Our C cert was not that great. Drive up from another station and not do a proper Audit. Once I had to call him back as he missed a work pack signature, he had to sign and stamp. Another time he missed the tech log sign of. I signed it as he had signed off the work pack. He was BCAR L entry. Super Techs. Met one of those in the Huntley House at Lossie almost 40 years ago. Sgt and taking the boys on the lash. The ex FLM to Techie JT took me the DE 18 year old JT on a session. Next time I see him, he is using a long sledge hammer to knock out a machined tail plane fitting on a Jag... No soft set. I get my coat..

Nutty: clarifying the RAF's "Super Tech Apprentice" thing; I so enlisted in 1969, I think the scheme had been running about 5 years at that time (the TV adverts called us "Aerocrats") and ran for about another 5 before (I think) developing into a dual-discipline trade. Mechanical Apps did 3 years at Haltditz, our avionic counterparts were at Locking with identical Entry Numbers I believe, though we never met.

After 3 years we graduated as corporals equal skilled (!!) and qualified in Airframes, Engines, Electrics and Weapons, and with an ONC. After 2 years of mentored experience in the real Air Force promotion to sergeant was semi-automatic. Around 1973 the Weapons discipline was removed from the sylabus and that appllied retrospectively to those personnel in Service.

If you know someone with the surname of a locked up ex yank porn star..

We had one at Odiham on the OCU, he later went VC10 and did the gear change on the Brooklands one.

I think by then they were Engines, Airframes, Electrics, and I think possibly Nav Inst / Radar?

Strange world, as a LAE you tend to do that lot on smaller stuff or without specialised test equipment ;)

I was also a super tech at Halton starting 1969. But I also remember doing safety equip fits, seats removals refits and gun loading at 1st Line Harriers in the mid to late 70’s . I don’t recall ever being told that I wasn’t qualified.

Can't be categorical either way Nolongerin, but I do remember having to be given special dispensation to perform seat Vitals, if reqd, during a minimalist F-4 detachment around late 70s. Maybe it was a command/group/station thing. Long time ago ......

(117 btw).