Today the Secretary of State for Defence announced: I’m introducing from April, a new £30,000 retention payment for a cohort of Tri-service aircraft engineers who sign up for additional three years’ of service. This will be open to around 5000 personnel in total.
Healey been lurking on PPRuNe Mil?

Good to see the recognition for Engineers here! :ok:

Sounds wonderful, however, it does make you wonder what may, or may not, be included in the proverbial "small print" . That, and what the selection criteria will be. Also, will this be a "one off" or become a permanent addition to the T's and C's.

I can think of one location where people completed one tour in one post before, ahem, seamlessly moving into another as they knew how to " work the system".

It's a one-off, and the T&Cs associated with it have been outlined previously and cascaded. What was held back until today was the amount and obviously the implementation date.

I would say though, going by this

Royal Air Force Pay Scales 2024 - 2025 - Armed Forces - RAF Officers Pay - Armed Forces Pay Review Body -Fifty Third Report 53rd 2024 Rates - Other Ranks Pay Rates - RAF 2024 Pay Review

It will only really bump a Chief Tech / Flight Sgt’s pay up to roughly comparable with 1 years Licenced Engineers pay rate in Civi street.

so any of those with Licenses, it will not really benefit their staying in the RAF etc, as you would need to triple it for a three year period to 90K to make it financially viable to remain in situ.

But it is a move in the right direction.

As much as this was a useful conversation, I believe it missed the point that the problem was not within the MOD or RAF's maintenance training but the lack of suitable remuneration to encourage Licenced Aircraft Engineers joining the contracted services at Shawbury and Valley. They simply offered too little pay and nobody was impressed enough to join.

One issue is, aviation companies these days are having to review and adjust remuneration’s accordingly, often several times a year, to simply retain staff, such is the shortage.

And while the RAF may try to retain engineers, the cold hard facts are they only review the pay scales annually, and the only ranks that can be considered financially comparable are senior ranks.

The likes of junior ranks will never be financially comparable, so they see their future outside the RAF and leave accordingly, this must compound the issues the RAF must face, as todays junior ranks are tomorrows senior ones, and with them leaving there is no backfill to replace them.

Yes Nutty, low pay is the problem and it all dates back to Tony Blair and his loony craze for universities. Our world-renowned Belfast Technical College (think of the skills which built the Titanic and other great liners and skilled craftsmen for Shorts) became a Polytechnic and then the New University of Ulster. Granted we have very successful IT graduates and research companies, but all too few apprentices in what used to be called the Trades. Nobody wants to be a grease-monkey or common LAE as I used to be.and now the country is paying the price.

We had to replace our gas boiler just before Christmas and we found a young chap who loved his job as plumber and then gas engineer. He said all his friends had gone to Uni for the gap year and the parties as he described it. One has a well-paid career ahead in IT, another is employed on video game design, the others are bicycle couriers or in MacJobs. On some gas installations he needs plastering, joinery or bricklaying work but has difficulty finding tradesmen to do it. Of the experienced tradesmen his firm used to engage, nine out of ten are due to retire in the next two years.

Aerospace manufacturing jobs are rightly valued, but where are the maintenance craftsmen to look after the products in service? I retired over 20 years ago and was still asked to return part-time for such tasks as duplicate inspections. These days I couldn't wriggle down a fuselage even if I hadn't lapsed my licences.

Because companies never paid the market rate to get people in for 20 years before Covid. They also didn't invest in targeted apprenticeships to get the cream to be LAEs as quickly as possible. BA trying that now. The whole system of licencing has changed as well. You can say that about the MROs in NWI and EXE. Connie pay at the latter is still pre pandemic rate. I am on 30K more than that now! You may not have noticed that kids do put effort into GCSEs and A levels to get to uni. And if you are like my two daughters that got medical degrees. They were not partying every night. Far from it. Only people that party every night at Uni are the rich.

No reflection on your daughters, DTS, or other youngsters who labour long and hard -- my younger relative has just climbed the ladder to become a hospital consultant. I was quoting the experience and comments of young Ross the plumber who worked equally hard to learn his trade. As I myself worked part-time and without pay to obtain my ARB A&C licence before the CAA took over in 1972. I fully accept that licensing is totally different to my times of more than half a century ago. But where are all the young tradesmen?

As I've said before, many I knew had no intention of progressing to their personal wee and snot chair in the Sgts Mess. The RAF was an entry level stepping stone to be a part of a diverse CV. Money however wasn't entirely the issue for not wishing to stay...it was the expectation of having to do secondary and tertiary duties, as well as being competent in their core role, that contributed to their decision.

Mind you, I did have to be the bearer of bad news to one who announced as soon as he was trained he was off to be....a connie... for more money. I gently pointed out, that, even if he found an agency, which was possible with some of the more "promise the earth" con merchants, if he arrived at 0800, he would be out of a job by 0830 and did he have his own, extensive, tool kit ?

Well some of them are working in Devon.
We needed a plumber and having been previously badly served by the older tradesman, we tried a young lad who was just setting up, He was available, turned up on time and went the extra mile, The attitude of the older guys was I was lucky to have them, their time keeping was dreadful and the job was often botched, the last one so badly he was too ashamed to send a bill.
The lad that turned up to service my gas boiler this year looked like he had not started shaving yet. The lad the year before found a leak that three of the manufacturers own engineers had missed on previous visits.

It is very difficult to get a decent apprenticeship (or any apprenticeship for that matter) in civvy street.
The armed forces provide decent training.
They are a stepping stone for those who are looking for a career in aircraft maintenance.
You have to start somewhere.
If you take the long view and not that long, after serving your time and putting in the effort to get through the licence exams you are employable.
Having retired a couple of years ago I am surprised by how fast wages have accelerated.
Companies apart from annual pay rises also have time served increments.
A shift supervisor with full increments is on about £90k where I used to work.
Surely that is not too shabby and not a bad end result after a short career in the military.
If I was faced with the recruitIng problem I would be selling the future, this is where you start but this is where you can end up.
The military appears to think it exists in a bubble, embracing a whole career view to retirement would encourage more people to enlist.
A proper partnership with civil aviation would benefit both parties.

Some of the younger guys are as keen as doing the most professional task they can I have found. Some older boys have been cowboys, especially the Brexit voting Saffar immigrant I had the misfortune of doing my gas boiler servicing back in Norfolk a few years ago. Gash..

Alas the training is not as strong as it was even 20 years ago. Skill set has been dummed down with the removal of 2nd and 3rd line to Industry. But the reduction of time limits to gain a licence is still there. Alas, the CAA was incompetent to tie military training and experience into credits against modules for A and B tickets. I had to do the lot (17 exams) for the basic licence and I had to do the complete first Type OJT syllabus for my first type rating. Most British companies were not set up for that. I did slog it out to do the exams (not one minute in a lecture to pass them) and had them under my belt as I left. There is the differences between the structure that we all know of course. That will never change and does not in the case of Voyager and Shadow. However in the past. Companies also had no incentive to train people when they advertised across the channel.Cannot do that anymore. BA are recruiting from the military now trying to fast track LAEs.

Sounds like nothing has changed since the 1960's. I left school in 67, spent 2 years trying to get an apprenticeship. Joined the RAF in 69 and became a Halton brat. Did my time, joined BA and got my licenses. Saw BA run down its apprenticeship scheme and start recruiting full time from the services and Bae until that dried up. Didn't have an apprentice scheme for over a decade until an ageing workforce forced their hand and they started a new scheme.

Quite so, Rebus. My father joined the RAF in 1936 and trained as airframe fitter at Halton. I still have a couple of spanners they all made as part of their training, and a tool for Hawker Hart rigging that's bound to be useful one day. His last posting was to 202 Met Sqn at Aldergrove, where he had to have one of five Hastings ready for takeoff at 0800 every morning, with one on standby to seek out the all-important weather. He completed his 26 years in 1962 just as Airwork was taking over 202's maintenance, offering him exactly the same duties for rather more money.

I had vague ideas of following in his footsteps but he strongly discouraged me, saying that it was no joke struggling with a wonky Hastings outside in North Atlantic gales and always under pressure. After a couple of years he had a heart attack, but Airwork kept him on full pay for almost a year until he decided he had enough and became the very happy live-in custodian of an ancient monument. This was shortly after my Uncle John had a fatal heart attack. He had been one of the first three engineers to be licensed on BEA's new Viscounts and he too often spoke of the constant pressures to get the aircraft away at all costs.

My father had high regard for the young airmen who worked under him but worried that two years of National Service wasn't nearly enough for their development, of course most of them couldn't wait to quit the RAF. I did ask what Airwork would do when stocks of experienced old-timers chose retirement and he replied that no civvy apprenticeships were in sight though they might have employed them in England. Even then youngsters were turning away from the trades.

I have seen people including LAEs leaving companies for years and if that company does not pay at least a similar amount to its neighbours they will continue to move. The last small company I was in danger of losing several major types as senior LAEs left apparently for no reason...until the last one said it was about poor pay which hadn't been reviewed for three years. (the company owner was quite happy with that). I remember in the mid/late 80s that there was a huge Heathrow/Gatwick pay battle where LAEs swapped almost regularly between Virgin and BA (some possibly still do).
When I got to Norwich the local helicopter companies pay was better than fixed wing pay - and with better bonuses too! As a type rated LAE, I left Norwich for a 45% pay rise for half of the job I previously did. Unlike most pilots, most engineers are not Union members (I was) and their pay rates can be very personal and any large company pay scales are not often publicised. (KLMuk applies 'Norwich Weighting' to its pay - similar to London Weighting but is set at minus 30%). Having said all that, my wide scope of experiences at AirUK / KLMuk set me on my feet for civil aircraft management and certification....and although I'm recently retitred, I'm still looking for short contracts!

Well done and best wishes, Rigga! You worked for your bread and butter, now sit back and enjoy the cream when it suits you, you've earned it! Could I ask if any of your companies had an apprenticeship scheme, or did they think it wasn't necessary?

Yes - of the seven companies that I’ve worked with 6 had/have Apprenticeships for the skills and qualifications they needed - and in three cases that meant LAEs that could double as machine operators for Part 21G to produce company designed modifications.